| Author |
Message |
    
Eduardo Zinna
Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:22 am: |       |
Attention all posters,
On behalf of Ripperologist's editorial team, I would like to draw to your attention a groundbreaking article on Elizabeth Stride contributed by newcomer Daniel Olsson to issue 52 of Ripperologist, now available. Daniel has put together an impressive amount of new information which expands significantly our knowledge of Elizabeth's early years in Sweden at the same time as it explodes old myths and puts paid to groundless theories. The article is complemented by reproductions of all public records pertaining to Elizabeth and her family and by photographs of the farm where she lived as a child, the church where she worshipped and the street where she may have lived following her arrival in Gothenburg. In sum, an informative, sober and profusely illustrated article which all Ripper aficionados will undoubtedly enjoy.
I might also note that, if one is to judge by the number of posts devoted to her, Elizabeth Stride awakens more interest among Ripperologists than any other of the canonical victims except Mary Jane Kelly. Daniel's article is certainly worthy of that interest and provides replies to many hitherto unanswered questions.
In addition to Daniel Olsson's article on Elizabeth Stride, Ripperologist 52 features contributions by Andy Aliffe, Christopher-Michael DiGrazia, Chris George, Wilf Gregg, Rob Hills, Chris Scott and the present poster.
To subscribe to Ripperologist or to acquire a sample issue, visit its website at www.ripperologist.info.
Eduardo Zinna |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 951
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 11:46 am: | |
Eduardo,
Got mine this morning. Not read it yet but skimmed through it though.
Personally I want to get stuck into Rob Hills article.
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Who cares where Stride went to church? How is this "knowledge" of the Whitechapel murders?
All she is to us is a kind of mannequin that gets knocked down at a certain time in Berner Street. Could have been anybody else, as far as Ripperoloy is concerned.
This kind of thing gets my dander up. We pay $$$ for--what? Can anyone tell me what?
Bullwinkle
|
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 263
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 9:34 am: | |
Well, everybody has their own interests.
I care about what Liz Stride did during her life. The interest is legitimate, exactly because there are people who view the victims as "mannequins". My own view of research like this is that it's like claiming a piece of a life lost, an idea which is appealing to me. I'm looking forward to reading the article when my issue arrives.
The story of the Whitechapel Murders is more than a "whodunit".
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 9:54 am: | |
I agree with David O'Flaherty.
Maybe one has to quite interested in genealogy -- like I am -- to appreciate it, but the victimology is always interesting, relevant or not for the investigation.
As David O. says, The Whitechapel case is more than just about the murders themselves or to solve it. It is a mixture of many things; personal history, local history, crime history, the social context etc. etc.
Every murder victim has an interesting life story of their own to tell, and by taking part of it, we learn more about the society and the people during the time of the murders. This has been a crucial element in my research for my own cases here at home, and I believe it adds depth to the case, even though the individual details in the information may not always be relevant. But it is important for the broader picture.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 590
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 11:56 am: | |
Learning about the lives of women who through either the indignity of poverty in Victorian England or the "fix" needed to obtain the drug of their addiction doesnt for me make salubrious reading.To read about their lives as "spitoons" for men is even more revolting.
I find it OK to keep to the surface of stuff like this,its not needed to solve the case and could become quite prurient.
Natalie |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 264
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 12:30 pm: | |
Wow, Natalie. I might not be following you.
The victims were more than prostitutes and addicts--those are cartoons. That's why I find this kind of research important. We are learning about their lives independent of their status as victims.
Is interest to be limited to what's going to solve the case? The case never will be solved, at least not until A?R comes out.
Dave |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 358
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 1:09 pm: | |
"All she is to us is a kind of mannequin that gets knocked down at a certain time in Berner Street. Could have been anybody else, as far as Ripperoloy is concerned. "
Unproven.
Is it just possible that there is a wee bit of your own private theory sneaking in here?
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 323
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 10:59 pm: | |
Let's see, we have a choice of leaving five or more victims as pieces of hacked up meat on the streets or rooms of London in a period of a number of months over a century ago, or remember them as human beings, who before they died had feelings, emotions, opinions - who laughed and cried and lived before a real creep ended their lives. I prefer knowing where Long Liz went to church, or where Annie's and Mary Nichols families ended up. It tends to take some undeserved "attention" away from the creep.
Jeff |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 6:42 am: | |
Exactly, Jeffrey.
The fact that we learn more about their lives turns the focus on their existense beyond just being murder victims, namely as human beings with a life history of their own.
Natalie, you must be kidding. I really don't see your points at all. Do you really think reducing their personal information to what is relevant to the case is being respectful towards them? I don't get it. You are contradicting yourself.
I am interested in them as living human beings and as women of the 19th century, not as butchered murder victims.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 7:37 am: | |
I think it sounds like a very interesting article.I often wonder what the women imagined their lives would be like when they were children what they hoped for for themselves and how they felt about the way their lives turned out. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 7:43 am: | |
I see it exactly the same way, Belinda. Right on the money and well put.
Just because we're discussing a murder mystery, doesen't mean that we shouldn't be concerned about the context outside of the murders.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 02, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Eduardo Zinna
Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 7:49 am: | |
Hi all,
I appreciate your reaction to my posting. I'm gratified to note that that much interest indeed exists among Casebook posters in the Ripper's victims in general and, more specifically, in Elisabeth Stride. Daniel Olsson's article is, in my view, a very important contribution to our understanding of the Ripper murders and the circumstances that made them possible. I look forward to your further views on the article and on the contents of Ripperologist 52 as a whole.
Best regards,
Eduardo Zinna |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 8:12 pm: | |
"Is it just possible that there is a wee bit of your own private theory sneaking in here?"
>>Whatever would be wrong with that? Or do you fear falling when negotiating the great glass orb?
Bullwinkle |
Adam Wood
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
David
If you subscribed to Ripperologist you'd discover what you got for your $$$.
Perhaps you would care to tell me what you would prefer to see published in the magazine so that we can tailor it accordingly, or better still submit an article yourself.
Adam Wood
Production, Ripperologist |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:29 am: | |
My dear friend. Ha, ha, a good one. Yes, the dizzying heights of the G.G.O. are horrifying to me. But just so you know---the murders were not an attempt to raise a pogrom in the East End. Interesting theory, though.
Nothing "wrong" with it creepng in, no. In fact, it’s probably unavoidable. Only it's that in the past you've been rather quick to call the cognoscenti 'fundamentally crooked.' And so, when a moment later, you try to pawn off a wooden nickel of your own, I tend to resist. All human considerations aside, your view hides an agenda. You don't know that Stride's antecedents are irrelevant to her death. In an actual murder investigation such an assumption would be suicidal. But you desperately want it to be so, no? I have a hunch that if some interfering meddler would somewhat discover that she was the victim of a slice of Kidney-pie (for instance), the cry of Lipski! would suddenly echo empty up the alleyway, and the perceived center would evaporate like so much water vapor. So by all means, let's keep her a mannequin. Afterall, I'm assured that it's "a puzzle" to "solve." (That, I believe, is the standard line.) It's also my beef with 90% of all theorists. The 'case evidence' is nothing more a paper mache pinata. Keep slapping at it blindly and hope some secrets will spill out.
It's b.s., though. Logic is a blunt tool here. The first mistake is thinking it's a puzzle. It is not a puzzle.
And by the way, on an old score. It’s precisely why I quoted Protagoras. He spoke of the human and the relative. Disgusting things to you platonists, I know. But it’s still more b.s. to refer to Plato or Socrates and pretend that we understand who the sophists were or what they believed. Their works are not extant. Most probably, they were deliberately purged from existance. It’s kind of like trying to understand what the pagans believed by reading the interpetations of their beliefs in the works of the early Church fathers.
Carry on. Cheers, RP |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 361
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:31 am: | |
one of those annoying doppelganger postings. deleted. rp
(Message edited by rjpalmer on April 02, 2004) |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 595
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
Wow! It really does seem to be a man"s world still. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1424
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
"Wow! It really does seem to be a man"s world still."
Eh? What has that got to do with it...?
How did this become a gender issue all of a sudden?
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 598
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
Well if you dont think that discussing the private lives of women who were battered and murdered by Jack the Ripper has anything to do with gender then I might have to start an MCP thread to dicuss homophobia! |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1428
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
What!!!??? Gender? MCP? Homophobia? 
I don't get it, Natalie.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 601
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 3:59 pm: | |
Were the victims women?Or has a hundred years unsexed them? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2282
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I don't follow you. Why shouldn't we find out more about the victims - or, for that matter, Morris, Clapp, Watkins...?
Robert |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 9:39 am: | |
Adam,
Please keep separate what I'm saying about personal interest in Stride on the one hand and 'Ripperologist' on the other. No doubt it is an excellent magazine, worth the money charged for it.
What would I like to see in there? Well, how about an incisive article dealing with behind-the-scenes actions related to solving the case?
Bullwinkle
|
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
"...if some interfering meddler would somewhat discover that she was the victim of a slice of Kidney-pie (for instance), the cry of Lipski! would suddenly echo empty up the alleyway, and the perceived center would evaporate like so much water vapor."
>>If it were empirically proven that Michael Kidney killed Stride, then yes, I would have to reconsider my theory. In my theory, the real Whitechapel murderer killed her, as he also killed Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, and he was the tipsy young man reported by Schwartz. I would also have to reconsider my center. But what is your point in saying that? I'm aware that "that's the way it goes."
>>"...the dizzying heights of the G.G.O. are horrifying to me. But just so you know---the murders were not an attempt to raise a pogrom in the East End."
How do you know that? If you say you KNOW the murderer wasn't trying to raise a pogrom, shouldn't you say why? He might have been a pogrom-meister from eastern Europe.
It can be reliably forecast, I fear, that when A?R appears Mr. Palmer will immediately read it and just as fast come out to say: NO CENTER! NO SOLUTION! NO LIPSKI! NO NOTHING! (sigh) I can only hope that the deeper thinkers will consider how it has a plausible answer for every open question in the case.
Bullwinkle
|
