|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1218
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 2:33 pm: |       |
Just a question.
The Ripper is wiping off his hands and possibly the knife and then drops it randomly on the spot in Goulston Street. He is on the run from a murder scene (and maybe two), and the dropping of the apron tells me that he was in a hurry.
Why on Earth would he waste time to stop and write a message on the wall in Goulston Street, especially as we have no other signs on him communicating in this manner on other occasions -- or even communicate at all (if the Lusk letter is a hoax)?
It doesen't make sense.
I find it very hard to believe that he was interested in "making a statement".
I can't prove it, but I think the message was already there, whether he saw it or not. Stranger coincidences have happened.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Mark Starr
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
Were Annie Millwood and Martha Tabran victims of the same killer who killed the five canonical Whitechapel victims? It should be remembered that if Jack The Ripper had not slit his victims throats after he had strangled at least four of the Whitechapel Five, he might be known today as Jack The Strangler.
BTW, don't you have to have really powerful thumbs to strangle someone from the front? Even though I have big strong hands, my thumbs are weak. I can't even grate Parmesan cheese with one of those rotating graters. I would think that strangling someone from the front would be just about the riskiest way to kill anybody.
Regards,
Mark Starr
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 801
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:07 am: | |
Monty, Glenn,
Yes but you've got to admit that it's not likely that he just happened to drop the piece of apron by a message on the wall. I agree that it doesn't seem to make much sense but then just because we don't know what he meant doesn't mean the killer didn't write it.
If there was no apron then fine, I would think the same as you but the fact that out of all the places Jack could have dropped that apron I still think it's unlikely that he just happened to drop it by some writing on the wall when all the other walls on his journey would have probably had no writing on it at all.
Sarah |
Birgitte Breemerkamp
Police Constable
Username: Birgittesc
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:37 am: | |
It seems too much of a coincidence to me as well that the apron "just happened" to be left underneath a writing on a wall.
A while ago somebody (I forgot who it was) thought of the possibility that the Ripper had seen the writing earlier (before the killings) and left the apron there to confuse the police (trying to make them think Jews were behind the killings).
I think that's a good possibility too.
Birgitte |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1221
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:55 am: | |
Sarah,
I agree, it seems quite much as a coincidence.
But nevertheless. Firstly, we don't know how many scribblings on the walls there were in East End. I believe there were several. And as you yourself imply, we don't know the reasons behind the killings but in the context of the writing we often make this Jewish connection because we think of anti-semitic scenarios. This doesen't necessarily need to have anything to do with the Ripper at all.
In any case, whether he chose to drop the apron there deliberately or not, my point was that I don't think the Ripper wrote that message. He was on the run from at least one murder scene and I can't see why he would waste his time by writing a message on the wall.
However, I think Birgitte's suggestion actually is quite plausible.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 805
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 9:34 am: | |
Glenn,
Birgitte's explanation is a good one and would explain the apron being left by a message that had nothing to do with the murders, but what if he wrote the message before killing Kate instead of just seeing it? Is that a possibility?
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 9:43 am: | |
Well, Sarah, he could have, of course. But that would in such case implicate that he had a political agenda (since I don't believe the murders were that planned ahead), which I find doubtful.
Although I can't be sure, Jack the Ripper strikes me as a random killer, not someone who plans his actions or chooses his victims or murder spots several hours or days ahead (and therefore hardly would write it in order to -- for example -- throw the police off their path in trying to identify him and his motives).
This is tricky, since we don't know his identity, but I can't really come to terms with him writing such a message; I wonder if he bothered about social or political issues at all. Just speculations, but nevertheless...
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 213
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
Hi Glenn & all,
Possibly being a paranoid schizophrenic, couldn’t it be that the Ripper thought the ‘Juwes’ were to blame for his murders?
Take care,
Frank
|
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 812
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Glenn,
Yes but maybe he wrote it before and then was frustrated that no-one seemed to see it or that he had heard of so when he killed Kate he ran off and found that spot and dropped her apron there. A bit far fetched maybe but it's a suggestion.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 835
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
Sarah,
But you cant tell what its about.
Whats the bloody point ??
Frustrated Monty
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:51 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
I have to agree with Monty; it is rather pointless since we don't know the actual background of the writing, what it's about or why the Ripper would have written it in the first place.
Yes, your suggestion is a bit far-fetched, although stranger things have happened, I believe. Anyway, I can't see why he should have written it in the first place; we have no other indications on (or signs in connection with his crimes) that he was concerned with those issues that the message displays.
Those were areas highly inhabited by foreigners and especially Jews, the climate was anti-semitic, and I believe these kind of writings would not have been that uncommon, seen in the light of the social context. I prefer to settle with, that he possibly could have seen the writing earlier and then came up with the idea to drop the apron there when he ran past the door-way. Or else it just simply was a coincidence.
Just a note to ponder: I believe we are loosing Annie Millwood here; this thread is not supposed to be about the Goulston Street writing, so we may have to drop it or move it elsewhere on the forum.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 816
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 4:39 am: | |
Monty,
Just because we can't work out work it means exactly, it doesn't mean that he didn't write it. That is no proof.
Glenn,
we have no other indications on (or signs in connection with his crimes) that he was concerned with those issues that the message displays.
What issues?? I see no issues. The Jews weren't "issues". The message, to me, seems to indicate that the Jews should be blamed for something and I take that to mean that the Jews were the causes of the problems in that area.
Anyway, as you say I'll be dropping this now as this thread has gone off track.
Quick! Someone say something about Annie Millwood!
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1225
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 4:52 am: | |
Quick! I'll say something about Annie Millwood!
As I've said earlier, she seems like a possible early Ripper attempt, because of the similarity of the wounds with Tabram's. But what if Tabram wasn't a Ripper victim but really a victim of sailor or someone else)?
I belong to those who used to be nearly convinced that they both had met the Ripper in his early days, but now I am not so sure. We have some attempts in the abdominal areas and a lot of stab wounds. But we can't automatically assume that all knife attempts in East End during the time was the work of the Ripper. But I agree that it's possible to attribute Annie and Martha to the Ripper, I just wouldn't take it for granted. Tabram has nearly become canonized I think that is a mistake.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 819
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 5:29 am: | |
Glenn,
The problem with the idea of other killers roaming the streets of the East End lies with the fact that, even though is was quite a criminal area, there were no recorded murders in the whole of 1887 in that area and so the idea that there were quite a few different murderers wondering around that same area only a year later does seem a little strange.
I think that Emma Smith was definitely NOT a ripper victim and was probably killed by a gang. Annie Millwood though may have been an early attempt and I think that Martha Tabram may also have been the work of the Ripper. It's quite hard to tell as there as I don't know why he would have gone from stabbing his victims to ripping them open.
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 6:38 am: | |
I agree, Sarah.
I haven't checked the records for 1887 myself, but it seems like there indeed was some unusual high crime activity in 1888. However, looking at the Pinchin Street victim, Frances Coles, Alice McKenzie and Emma Smith, it is obvious that there were more perpetrators than the Ripper on the loose anyway (even if we consider MacKenzie and Coles as copy-cats inspired by the Ripper). And if we also exclude Liz Stride from the Ripper line-up, well... And then we have the throat-cutting domestic murder in Westminster the same night as Stride was killed. So nothing is impossible.
I can agree on that it may seem a little strange and I am not trying to argue for it -- just that we should keep an open mind about it. Some years the murder rates just suddenly boosts for no special reason; it just happens -- I have seen it many times. The fact is, that we simply just don't know and therefore can't totally dismiss it, even though it seems illogical.
Regarding the change in the MO, there are of course a number of reasons why he went to ripping; maybe he tried stabbing but wasn't satisfied with the "result", maybe he just got bolder and more daring etc. These are the usual explanations and I find them myself probable and compelling.
But I still think we should be careful with canonizing every knife victim we come across in 1888 -- there could be other explanations, even coincidences involved. However, I don't rule out either Millwood or Tabram as Ripper victims; as I see it their inclusions are rather logical and well based, I just prefer to keep an open mind about it.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 820
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Glenn,
I know that it is still possible. I know about the other domestic murder in Westminster but I was talking purely about the area in which the the five canonical victims were killed.
Out of the other murdered women that year I believe the following:-
Annie Millwood - Possible Ripper victim
Ada Wilson - Victim of a robbery gone wrong
Emma Smith - Victim of gang attack
Martha Tabram - Very likely Ripper victim
Whitehall Mystery - Unsure
Annie Farmer - Faked the attack
Rose Mylett - Possible Ripper victim
Looking at the women I don't think were attacked by the Ripper and then exclusing Annie Farmer and the Whitehall Mystery we are left with Ada Wilson and Emma Smith who were victims of common crimes of the time. Ada was (if we believe her story) attacked after refusing to give money to a thief and Emma was assaulted by a gang that went too far and I doubt they were planning on killing her.
Just my views.
Sarah |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 7:19 am: | |
Hi sarah,
If I should give a personal opinion, I can agree with practically everyone of your views, although I don't consider Rose Mylett to be a Ripper victim at all.
And another thing, whether they were Ripper victims or not, I think Millwood and Tabram seem to be quite connected in the MO.
I also agree regarding Ada Wilson; I believe the motive for that seemed to be robbery, according to details in her won account. And Emma Smith must be regarded as a gang attack; she even stated so so herself. I see no reason to doubt that. And I don't find it probable, as some here have suggested, that the Ripper belonged to such a gang.
Anyway, my tip is to just keep an open mind about it. As I said, crime rates can suddenly explode in certain areas during one year and we can't disregard from that. If we canonize Tabram and gives her the same "Ripper status" as Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, then I believe we paint ourselves into a corner. There are still too many unanswered questions.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 04, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 822
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 7:26 am: | |
Glenn,
Just to clarify, even though I said there were no recorded murders in 1887, it doesn't mean I think all the murders in 1888 must have been the Ripper. Don't think I explained that too well but just thought that the lack of murders in the previous year was interesting to note.
Sarah |
brad kelley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 9:26 pm: | |
hi all just read book on subject and found this site, pretty new so hope this possibility not already discussed, is it possible that if the mutilations of previous victom that evening were inturrupted by jews that he was simply saying they were to blame for second murder since he didn't get to complete the mutilations satisfying his sickness on the first? |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 825
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 9:17 am: | |
Brad,
Hello and welcome to the boards. I personally think that is a very good reason for the graffiti if he did write it as it would make more sense.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 217
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 2:45 pm: | |
Hi Glenn,
“Just a note to ponder: I believe we are loosing Annie Millwood here; this thread is not supposed to be about the Goulston Street writing, so we may have to drop it …“
In Goulston Street perhaps?
“I belong to those who used to be nearly convinced that they both had met the Ripper in his early days, but now I am not so sure.”
Just out of curiousity Glenn, what caused this rather sudden change in your (general) view(s)?
Take care,
Frank
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
Hi Brad. Welcome to the Boards.
Well, even if he were interrupted, I am not so sure about how he would have been able to pick up the fact that they were Jews. I would have been occupies with getting away as soon as possible; his may concern would have been to take off unspotted and uncaught, not who or what these persons were or represented.
Hello Frankie boy.
"In Goulston Street perhaps?"
"Just out of curiousity Glenn, what caused this rather sudden change in your (general) view(s)?"
Well, sudden and sudden. I am really witholding my original views; they haven't really changed. I am just not prepared to see things in such black and white as I used to do (although I will never buy Chapman as a Ripper suspect -- there goes the limit). I have been able to read up a bit more on the case and have also got a few inputs from other directions.
And you know how it is with these kinds of mysteries; the more you learn about the facts and the longer you're struggling with the case, the more evident it becomes how little you really know. And my London visit has partly to do with this lesson.
All the best
P.S. Is it just me, or has there been a slight change in the layout of the frames and borders on the website??????
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Ray Windlow
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
HI Folks,
New to the boards and all associated with it.
To my mind any discussion about the why and wherefors of incidents of the Ripper you absolutely must remember that you are dealing with a demented individual whose mind works totally unlike that of someone sane. Why would he drop a piece of apron or write a message on a wall ? Only he will ever know. We can but question his motives but are very unlikely to come to grips with hows his mind worked. Even the best psychanalaysts experienced in serial killings can scratch the surface of the mind of such individuals and make learned assumptions about the reasoning and workings of such minds. I think one of the most important facts regarding serial killers we must remember is that for the most part they appear to be reasonable normal individuals, often married with children with no hint of what lies beneath the surface.
There's my two bobs worth for what it's worth.
Incidentally as an avid JFK Assassination and Ripper reader I actually think Maybrick is the one based on the content of the "diary" and the multiple evaluations that it could only have been written by one whose mind was as demented as the "Ripper" had shown to be.
Cheers
Ray Windlow
Melbourne , Victoria, Australia |
Ronald James Russo Jr.
Police Constable
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 11:18 pm: | |
Glenn,
I think the general area where he killed Stride (provided he killed Stride) would help JTR to assume it was the Juwes. Dutfield's yard and the International Workingmen's Educational Club were a place for Jews. Also, if Israel Schwartz did see JTR attack Elizabeth Stride, then maybe JTR was just fed up with all the interuption from what he perceived as Jews. (Lipsky comment and all)
Some more ramblings,
Vlad |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 832
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 5:56 am: | |
Vlad,
I would agree, although would he have known for a fact what the place was?
Ray,
I actually agree with you there. There is no way that we will know why he did what he did.
Glenn,
I couldn't quite put my finger on it but I could tell there was something different about these boards this morning.
I see us slipping again. Quick, say something about Annie again!!
Sarah |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
