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Benjamin Bilgri
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 12:27 pm: | 
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Hello!
I've never posted here before, but I've been a more-or-less regular reader of the site for a while, having been interested in the Ripper for several years. I'm currently spending a semester abroad in Scotland, and recently had an opportunity to go on a Ripper walk during a trip to London. Thought some of you might enjoy a fresh set of impressions about this activity.
The walk was organized by the (apparently) venerable London Walks organization. We went on a Sunday night, with the understanding that Donald Rumbelow might be conducting the walk that night. Unfortunately, we were informed that Donald was ill that night, so we had three different guides which split up the rather large group.
Our guide was entertaining and seemed generally well-informed, but there were a few things she mentioned which made me cringe, namely that well over ten letters sent to the police were probably authored by the real Ripper. On the plus side, she did mention that theories involving any Masonic aspects were complete rubbish.
One of our first stops was Mitre Square. Our guide pointed out the spot where Katherine Eddowes was found, then attempted to give us an idea of what the area looked like in 1888 (Mitre Square has changed quite a bit).
Our other major stop that evening was Goulston Street. The famous archway is gone now, replaced by a fish and chips shop (!). We also stopped by a lodging house where Mary Kelly spent some time (though the building is undergoing redevelopment, the carved stone entrance signs above the door for MEN and WOMEN are still visible).
In general, the walk was entertaining, though more stops at famous locations (rather than random stops along the street for story-time) would have been appreciated.
On an interesting note, I was reading the Complete History of Jack the Ripper earlier today, and noticed that one of Elizabeth Stride's addresses earlier in her life was listed as 67 Gower Street. Believe it or not, this was the exact same address (now a hotel) where I was staying during my time in London!
Seriously.
This gave all of us who enjoyed the walk a serious chill. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 628
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 8:27 am: |
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Hi, Benjamin
Thanks for filling us in on your impressions of your recent Ripper walk. Most interesting!
A couple of points. First, I believe the archway where the graffito was found still exists, albeit there is now a fish and chip shop in the building at that point, as you state. Compare the photographs of Goulston Street here on the Casebook. The old Wentworth Model Dwellings, previously a tenement mainly inhabited by Jews, making the graffito supposedly referring to "the Jews" intriguing, is one of the few buildings connected to the murders still standing.
Second, I hesitate to burst your bubble that you stayed in a hotel at the same address where Liz Stride lived at one time, 67 Gower Street, but possibly the Gower Street that was cited as the residence of Elizabeth Stride is not the same Gower Street, WC1, in the Bloomsbury District of London's West End, where you were staying. You will see here on the Casebook, that the East End thoroughfare "Grove Street" running parallel to and thus fairly close to Berner Street (today's Henriques Street), where Stride was killed in Dutfield's Yard, was sometimes referred to as "Gower Street."
Best regards
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 461
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 9:03 am: |
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Here is a photo taken a couple of weeks ago of the doorway in Goulston Street. You can see that the doorway itself is now taken up an exterior counter of the fish and chip shop, but it is still the same doorway and brickwork even though the stairs etc are now gone.
 |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 629
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 9:44 am: |
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Hi, Alan
Many thanks for that recent photograph of the archway. Everytime I see that filigree on the archway it always strikes me as out of time for 1888, almost a Oriental touch or 1930's Art Deco, and yet the view from across the street in the below photograph by Johnno shows that this type of ornamentation over the entrances to the building and on the landings was throughout. Thus I conjecture they are part of the building as it was originally built. Anybody have any thoughts on this matter?
All the best
Chris
 |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 410
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
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Benjamin,
You mention the large number of people on the walk. This, I think has become a real problem. A few years ago I took the walk on a very cold Sunday evening (with Donald R.). The group was divided in two, but there was still I'll bet well over 50 people in Donald's group alone. Not only does this sort of ruin the atmosphere of the walk, but it is creating a nuisance in the neighborhood and resentment among the locals. Last summer I took the walk again because some in my group wanted to. Again the crowd was large and the guide (not Donald this time, who was ill then too) was not even able to take us down Hanbury St because of merchants' objections. This is in contrast to the first time I took the walk back in 1988, with Martin Fido. On that Sunday night only about 15 or so were on the walk.
There isn't really anything that can be done -- short of raising the price, which would be a shame. But it's too bad and we might be ruining a good thing. Perhaps self-guided walking tours would be a better idea, but as some have said, this is not the seemliest side of town.
Andy S. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 630
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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Hi, Andy et al.:
You may or may not have seen my recent post giving the thoughts of the late Adrian M. Phypers (Viper) about Ripper walks. A search tells me I believe I may have posted it on a non-archived thread, so here it is again--
"The main reason I don't offer a regular Ripper tour is because of the damned unpleasant atmosphere on them. They are among the most lucrative guided walks, but I can do without the hassle. Eggs and half-full Coke cans have been thrown at walking parties, an air gun was once fired at a group, hitting a woman and perhaps the worst story I heard was of a group of suited-up City yobs (there aren't that many City gents these days) sidling up behind a Ripper party and peeing down their backs! Verbal abuse is just about a nightly fixture. The problem is that none of the locals like the walks. Perhaps there is reason; there are far too many of them and in some cases the groups are much too big. Some of them can have 150+ people. However you manage a group of even 50 people it is disruptive - whatever some guides choose to tell you. Narrow East End pavements get blocked as the group snakes through the streets, passers-by have to walk round stopped groups and there is no alternative but to shout, because if you don't the people at the back of the group cannot hear you.
"On the route you have old-style East Enders, you have an increasingly militant Bangladeshi youth on the streets and then there are all the yuppies who have moved into the area in the past few years. Generally speaking the first mentioned are the most tolerant and the last mentioned the least tolerant of all the groups, but all are increasingly ready to voice their objections to the tours. I can understand their grievance to a degree - if guides stop outside your house every night and yell out gory details whilst the kids are in bed it can't be too pleasant. However, what the residents don't understand is that these tours are some of the few that make money - especially in winter. I have a general Spitalfields walk and in two outings have yet to get a customer for it. Am repeating it tomorrow and it will almost be a surprise if a customer turns up. Incidently, the local council is very unsympathetic to Ripper walks too and sided with the locals in an attempt to ban them a few years ago. The attempt failed (I'm very glad to say), but guides running the gauntlet of illegal and potentially dangerous hazards will get little sympathy from that quarter."
*********
Chris George again:
It occurs to me that perhaps the answer in the future might be to offer "virtual" Ripper walks in a place like the London Dungeon, or perhaps in a Ripper museum if one were to come into being. That way, instead of seeing sites that don't look like they did in 1888 anyway, you will see the sites recreated as they did at the time of the murders. That, or go on a one-on-one tour of the murder sites with an authority, something I missed out on doing in 2001 when I was in the U.K. and was planning to meet Viper, a rendezvous that had to be scrapped because of other untoward circumstances. 
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on February 24, 2004)
(Message edited by ChrisG on February 24, 2004) |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 780
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:49 am: |
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Chris,
A extract from a copy of a post I put on the boards a few summers ago. I know its not really what you were asking but as a result of a flurry of posts between Martin and myself it was established that the dwellings and the building opposite were built at the same time.
The only problem was that this experiment was NOT conducted on the Wentworth dwellings. I put out a request on the boards asking if the surrounding buildings were a) built at the same time and b) had the same decorations as the Wentworth Dwellings. Mr Fido kindly replied (do you remember this Martin ?) that the opposite buildings had been built at the same time and had been decorated in the same manner.
Monty
 |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 631
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:59 am: |
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Hi, Monty
Many thanks for answering my architectural query about the decorative features seen on Wentworth Model Dwellings. I was wondering if such might be the case, that similar decoration was found on any neighboring building(s).
Chris |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 782
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:08 pm: |
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Chris,
If I remember correctly (christ, it was only a few months ago since I was there...though topped up on London Pride at the time !) the buildings opposite were almost carbon copies in terms of decoration....maybe Alan can help me out here.
Point of interest, See the blue entrance to the left of the chippy ? Upon closer inspection I found that the last layer before you get to brick was a sepia glaze. Across form this enterance, on the opposite side of the road again, I found sepia glazework before I got to regular brickwork. I feel all those entrances has glazework on them, which would be bloody hard to write on....especially in chalk.
Just thought Id mention it.
Monty
(Message edited by monty on February 24, 2004) |
Kerry Ashworth
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 9:39 am: |
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I went on the Jack the Ripper tour on Friday (20th Feb) and I thought is was really good. I went on it with a friend who is shortly doing a presentation on Jack the Ripper, and she wanted me to go with her. The comments made on Gower Street are quite right, as my university (UCL) is on Gower Street, and it's in a completely different part of London to Whitechapel, where the murders took place (why another name for them was 'The Whitechapel Murders'). Anyway, it's really worth going to. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 783
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:13 pm: |
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All,
Id sooner do my own walk....hitting every pub on the way.
Its odd though, I always end up wasted....inpersonating a fire engine !
I just like finding my own way around.
Monty
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 414
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 12:52 pm: |
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Chris,
I like the idea of a virtual tour -- could be something similar to the Britain at War Experience near the London Dungeon (though I was a bit disappointed with the War Experience).
Another option would be to increase the price of the tours to, say, 20 quid. That would discourage large crowd and encourage mostly those with a genuine interest. Problem is that competitors would undoubtedly undercut the price and the crowds would continue.
Andy S. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 468
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 5:13 am: |
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Monty
I think the buildings opposite are still the same, but the market was on while I was there this time so a lot of it was obscured (hence the awkward angle of the photograph, taken from between two market stalls). |
Benjamin Bilgri
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 7:12 am: |
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I've got a picture of the archway from straight on at night that should show some detail. I'll see if I can get it on here sometime soon.
By the way, thanks to everybody for their comments (as far as Gower Street goes, I guess we can't have everything ). |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 787
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:33 am: |
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Alan,
Question for you.
Martin Fido informed me there was an archway leading into a yard behind the buildings opposite the dwellings.
Did you see anything like that on your jolly ?? I know I didnt but then again, I wasnt paying much attention to that side of the Street
Monty
PS...Did you get a pint in at The Market Trader ?? |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 473
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:50 am: |
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I really can't remember paying too much attention either. I was hoping to be back there this month but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find a free weekend so it will probably be after I get home from Nepal in April before I get back over.
Where is the Market Trader? I spent all my time in the City Darts on this occasion. I was intending to try one of the other "Ripper related" pubs for Sunday lunch but then ran into Caz and her friend Liza and somehow ended up back in the Darts. As I'm sure Caz could testify, strange things seem to happen when Liza is around (such as finding yourself having a "who's got the hairiest chest" competition with an East-End villain!) |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 791
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:15 pm: |
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Alan,
New Goulston St, on the corner with Middlesex st, opposite the NEW Wentworth model dwellings.
Yeah, Caz is a one. Ex civil servant you see....all that repression !!!
Monty
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Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 3:35 pm: |
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Hi folks;
I would like to sign up for the Monty tour please!It sounds like more fun than the "getting peed on by locals" tour, just as wet but with better results.
Ha ha ha ha..hic.
Joan |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 786
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 6:27 am: |
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Hi Alan,
I felt a bit embarrassed about the way Liza waylayed you when we bumped into you in Wentworth Street, ordering you to see us in the Darts in ten minutes for a liquid late breakfast!
All I can say is that she is a great mate but I’m glad I’m not a bloke when she’s around. She’d have me for breakfast and spit me bootlaces out. 
Mind you, the ladies don’t always manage to escape her ‘hairiest chest’ competitions. 
Hi Monty,
I don’t think Quentin Crisp – the naked civil servant – was famous for being repressed.
When are you going to come out to play? If I know you’re coming to the C&D I can plead with Liza to be gentle with you.
Love,
Caz
|
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 796
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 7:59 am: |
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Caz,
Due to our Ministers push on the current flavour of the month....BENEFIT TOURISTS...I cannot say when. Hoping to make it in March...as always, I hope but....
Monty...who seems to have offended you people.
PS Liza can be a rough as she likes...as long as I dont have to see her hairy chest ! |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 796
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 12:52 pm: |
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Monty, you could never offend me – no matter how hard you try. 
Anyway, the next main meeting is in the Darts on the first Saturday in April.
I’ll let Liza know that you like a bit of rough then, shall I?
Love,
Caz
PS I did have a friend once with a hairy problem. She used to say “You name it, I have to shave it.” The mind boggles, but I thank goodness - and Bic - that I’m fair haired, cheap and easy to run.
(tee hee, I said cheap)
(Message edited by Caz on February 27, 2004) |
LivingSusanD
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 6:51 pm: |
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Would the tours generally be something you could take teenagers on? I am going to be in London next month with my family, including younger siblings, and would appreciate the input. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 829
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:08 am: |
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Hi Susan,
Depends entirely on the teenager I guess.
For my daughter's birthday treat, when she was eleven (she's sixteen now), she asked us to take her and a couple of friends round The London Dungeon (close to London Bridge Station), which had its own 'Ripper Experience' going on.
I'd also have been happy to take her on one of the guided Ripper walks at that age, although I think she might have found it a bit boring compared with the Dungeon, which caters more for children's ghoulish glee.
Enjoy your trip!
Love,
Caz
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:23 am: |
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Benjamin,
I wonder if we may have attended the same Ripper walk that particular Sunday (February 22)? It was freezing that evening, and yes, Donald Rumbelow unfortunately was abscent due to illness.
I was a bit disappointed over the fact that they scrapped a couple of the murder sites, like former Berner Street and Bucks Row, but anyway; I did my own walk a couple of days later.
The woman we had, leading our group (I think there were three groups) mould have been self-written for a marathon race, because she practically rushed through the streets of Whitechapel like a hurricane.
I liked her remark directed to the new owners of the Ten Bells pub, though -- that they no longer "wanted us riff-raff in there".
Did Mitre Square give you a smaller and more crammed impression as well? I though it was a large square, when in fact it wasn't.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Scott Suttar
Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 1:22 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
I did the tour with Donald Rumbelow almost 18 months ago now and yes I have to say Mitre Square was far smaller than I had imagined.
I agree that it is unfortunate that so many sites have been dropped from the tour, in many ways the sites we visited were peripheral to the murders. Nevertheless it's something every enthusiast should do.
Scotty.
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Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 8:12 am: |
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I am going to throw in my 2p worth here, after decades of interest in the case I attended a Ripper tour last summer, not I hasten to add the one by Mr Rumbelow.
Despite the thrill of finally actually being there, I have to say it was utter pants! (A British expression, a rough translation is not possible due to the offence it may cause!! Lets just say it was DIRE) I had already prepared myself, knowing that these were more for those with a casual interest, and I had decided to hold my tongue no matter what the guide said.
After a hilarious introduction where we were told neither to talk to, nor engage in eye-contact with any locals, and if a local were to approach us we were to inform our guide who would move the local on for us. (By this time I noticed a couple of the American old ladies on the tour were looking quite terrified at the prospect of running in to a 'LOCAL'} convinced they were some kind of sub human woolly-backed sabre-toothed troglodyte).
Anyway the guide who seemed like some sort of failed actor with a second hand script proceeded to take us around the east-end, firstly informing us that ‘most’ of the murder sites were gone so we wouldn’t be going to them all. In fact, we went to Mitre Square and Ghoulston Street and that was about it, the tour stopped at the Minories, Middlesex Street, Brushfield Street and outside the Ten Bells, where we were warned not to go in (probably more of those damned pesky ‘locals’).
It was good in that it gave me a flavour of the area but some of the trite rubbish that spewed out of the mouth of our guide was horrendous. Not wishing to appear like some sort of know it all anorak I managed to stay quiet, but all in all it was disappointing that they had not even done their research properly.
Still it gave me the lay of the land an I have subsequently been back many times with a friend and visited all the important sites, and I might add got utterly wasted many times in the Ten Bells, though I am still a little afraid to make eye-contact with any ‘locals’!
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Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 8:21 am: |
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Surley lot us locals...However its not all the guides fault...Ripper tours arn't all that popular with pubs like the Ten bells because its not steady trade..50 people walk in, order fifty halves of beer pack the place out for 40 minutes and leave. This puts off the people who drink regularly so they go to the pub next door. The ecconomics of Ripper tours isn't so good for the publican who is trying to make a living.
I'm not saying that this is right or wrong just that pubs like the Ten Bells arnt always as sympathetic to the Ripper phenomina as you might think. Besides Kelly drank at the Britania which was opersite the Ten Bells.
Best to stick to the serieous tours like Rumblows and diffinately avoid us Cockneys, 'alright mate'.... only kidding, Jeff |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 549
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:51 am: |
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Matt,
Pity you didn't get to Hanbury Street. I think local businesses have raised objections. While the site of 29, Hanbury Street is gone, there are period buildings directly across the street so the atmosphere is not totally absent.
If this was a London Walks tour, there is a very nice tall and slim gentleman who often fills in for Donald (I believe his name might be Sean/Shawn) who is very knowledgeable about the East End, but alas, is not knowledgeable about the Murders.
(By this time I noticed a couple of the American old ladies on the tour were looking quite terrified at the prospect of running in to a 'LOCAL' convinced they were some kind of sub human woolly-backed sabre-toothed troglodyte).
Do I detect a bit of American-bashing here?  Just kidding! How do you know they were Americans? Might they have been Canadian? Seriously, I know we Americans are not always on our best behavior when abroad. Sorry about that. I try to make up for it when I visit that fair city on the Thames.
Andy S.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1994
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
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Scotty,
Great you also had the same sensation about Mitre Square. From the photos it looks like a really large square. Strange place; felt like a back yard. But a bit spooky, so I liked it.
Glad to hear that Donald Rumbelow was back in business again, Scott.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 7:04 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
funnily enough I have just come home from London today. Having had another enjoyable trip to Whitechapel, and still having had no bother from those damned pesky ‘locals’.
It maybe because I am always with my best mate who is himself a ‘local’. Though I might add, he is a tame domesticated ‘local’, not one of the roving hairy knuckled gargoyles that the guide warned us of on my first visit.
Any who, I do fully understand why the pubs and locals wouldn’t particularly appreciate hoards of tourists flat-footing around the district especially considering the money all goes to firm outside of the area.
The Bells isn’t exactly a massive Pub and it is usually too full of local trade on the weekend to accommodate any reasonably sized tour anyway. My friend always insists on only having one or two pints at the Bells before moving on to The City Darts because the Bells is always too loud and too full of students and he is a grumpy old so and so and it is always much quieter and friendlier in the Darts. .
I’m not sure that I am making any kind of point here, I seem to be meandering about a bit. I must just be in a chatty mood. |
Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 3:54 am: |
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Hi there Andy
I have actually been to Hanbury Street many times now, interestingly enough not 4 days ago I was in one of those period buildings you mention, having a nice Vindaloo (it’s a restaurant now).
It wasn’t a ‘London Walks’ tour, to be honest I forget the name of the company. I shouldn’t be so harsh I suppose it was just popularist claptrap.
I would never dream of bashing Americans! However, they were definitely American. Even I can tell the difference between Americans and Canadians. ( Their behaviour was fine it has more to do with volume!!)
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Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
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Being one of the Ripper guides, I frequently (vainly) search for a positive mention of someone else other than Don - and I have finally found one ON ME!!! Ha ha haaaa!!! On - apparently - the largest Tourist site on the internet. Paste this link and marvel at my genius!!!
http://goeurope.about.com/od/londo1/fr/ripper_tour.htm |
Dale Huddlesceugh
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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I went on a Ripper walk recently and the guide was the lady who plays John Nettles' wife in Midsomer Murders. I thought it was good value overall although understandably pitched at beginners. Some people seemed confused that we didn't go round the sites in chronological order. Some of the places we stopped were peripheral and we went through Hanbury Street without it being drawn attention to (although at an earlier stage she had warned us that residents were fed up with the walks). There must have been at least 100 people in our group and the number seemed to grow as we progressed. The guide, who told us it was the first time she had done the walk for a while did make a couple of small factual errors that I noticed, such as saying that the Dear Boss letter was signed simply "Jack" and "Jack the Ripper" was invented by journalists from the "ripping" reference in the text. She also said that the site of the Goulston Street graffito was now some kind of sex shop. But overall, pretty good and she needed all her powers of vocal projection. |
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