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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 4:09 pm: |       |
G'day,
SARAH: Why would a newspaper miss the exciting opportunity of relaying the fact that Maxwell called her by name, if she infact did? If she told the reporters: "I asked what she was doing up so early.", that's exactly what they would have printed!
Kate may have seen it as a good opportunity to bribe a few quick pence! (speculation)
LEANNE
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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 4:29 pm: | |
G'day SARAH,
I just checked that newspaper report, against Maxwells inquest statement again: At the inquest she said that she spotted her: "When I came out of the lodging house, [Crossinghams], she was OPPOSITE."
To the press the girls reply was: "I have the horrors from drink" (No names were exchanged). At the inquest it became: "Oh carrie, I do feel so bad."
???????? LEANNE |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
Heres my random speculation.
1, Jack may have been a member of the gang that attacked Emma Smith.
2, Jacks victims were Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.
3, Jack changed his M.O. after Tabram as he got no thrill from repeatedly stabbing her.
4, Elizabeth Stride was not a victim of Jack, because the position her body was found in was different, knife used was different and the person Schwartz saw, was the person that killed her and would have had enough time to mutilate her.
5, Jack lived a few streets North of Old Montague Street.
6, Catherine Eddowes had an idea who Jack was and went to meet him, but he surprised her at Mitre Square.
7, Jack may have used some of Mary Kellys own knifes on her.
8, George Hutchinson didn't come forward right away as he was scared he might be suspected, he was at the inquest, and he came forward because he knew he had been seen.
9, Was Elizabeth Prater covering for John McCarthy? Her Police Statement said that between 1 a.m. and 1.30 a.m. 9th November she was standing at the entrance to Millers Court and that she spoke to John McCarthy, but in her inquest statement she said she spoke to know one and was waiting for the man she lived with.
10, Caroline Maxwell did see Mary Kelly that morning, her Police Statement was made on the day, so she couldn't have mistaken which day she saw her.
11, It may not have been Mary's body that was in Millers Court.
Rob |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 814
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 4:29 am: | |
Leanne,
I still believe that anything she said to the press should not be worried about too much. At the inquest she had to think and say the exact words but it doesn't matter with the press so much plus the press had a big tendancy to lie or change stories so I don't think anything they report can be taken into too much consideration.
Rob,
10, Caroline Maxwell did see Mary Kelly that morning, her Police Statement was made on the day, so she couldn't have mistaken which day she saw her.
Exactly, that is what I believe too. She gave her police statement on the same day not long after hearing about Mary's death so I don't think that she could have been mistaken about the day either.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 6:50 am: | |
G'day,
Here's my latest:
* I agree with Rob's speculation that the Ripper likely had some hand in the attack on Smith, and the murder of Tabram.
* Jack's victims were Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, (at least).
* Jack changed his M.O. when he wanted to, and when he needed to.
* Why do you, Rob mate, consider that the Ripper changed his M.O. from the murder of Tabram, yet couldn't alter his M.O. for the murder of Elizabeth Stride?
Stride was murdered at 1:00a.m., the other Ripper victims were murdered later in the morning. Isn't it safer to speculate that the Ripper was not yet armed with his trusty knife? This suggests that her murder wasn't planned beforehand, and may also explain the odd, busy location of Dutfield's Yard.....she had to go!
* I think Catharine Eddowes was attracted by the many stalls set up around the area at the time. She lacked money, but she knew how to get it! She could have saw 'Jack' around St. James market, and tried to bribe!
* Caroline Maxwell THOUGHT she saw Mary Kelly!
SARAH: Caroline Maxwell's police statement on the morning of the murder is revealed in 'The Ultimate Companion'. It does NOT state that she called Mary by her name: 'I said to her, what brings you up so early. She said I have the horrors of drink upon me'. Notice that the girls reply was not: "Oh carry I feel so bad." Her police statement is more like her press statement, than her inquest version!
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 821
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 7:12 am: | |
Leanne,
Well this is my opinion here and that is how I see it. Whether she called Mary by name doesn't really matter to me, it's all down to who she thought she was talking to and I believe she was talking to Mary.
Sarah |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 2:52 am: | |
HI ALL,
I hurt my shoulder today so I cant sleep and I am typeing with one hand witch is amazeing since I cant type with two. I was reading all the old post from different threads and I got interested in Arbie LaBruckman again. I read Rob's post on Tabrum. Supporting her as a ripper victim and If Tabrum was a ripper victim then it would be another point for LaBruckman. Pearley Paul stated that her and Martha met two Sailors and they went in different directions and Taberum was found murderd later.
I think one of the must important questions you can ask is was Carrie Brown a ripper victim? I feel Abberline thought she was. so If she was then we can rule out a whole bunch of suspects and narrow our own suspect pool.
So does anyone have any thoughts on Carrie Brown being a ripper victim or not?
All the best, CB |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 826
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 9:23 am: | |
CB,
Even if we decided Carrie was a ripper victim then we still can't really narrow down the suspects because she still might not have been in reality.
Hope that makes sense.
Sarah |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 2:39 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
Makes perfect sense. We may never know how many women the ripper killed for sure. That is one of the reasons that this case may never be solved. For example if you believe that the ripper killed Brown then you could rule out such suspects as Maybrick, Kozminski/Cohen,Druit,sorry to say Barnett and many others.
When speculating on a suspect we must first come to terms with who we pesonally think was a ripper victim. You are absolutely right we can never be certain if brown was a ripper victim or not but the same can be said for Sride,Kelly and really all the others. Decideing on who you personally think is a ripper victim could help decide witch direction you choose to go in terms of your investigation if you dismiss Brown then you might dismiss LaBruckman as a suspect. If you support Brown then you might want to try and place LaBruckman in WC at the time of the murders.
What do you think Sarah was Brown a ripper victim? I just think that is an important question for anyone to ask themself before they move on with there own investigation and there own preferd suspect.
Thanks for takeing the time to respond. Take care,CB |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 227
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
I believe after stabbing someone 39 times, you would be both physically and mentally exhausted and thats why he changed his M.O.
I also think from Nichols onwards he used and carried only one knife. A knife he felt comfortable with. I just don't think it is likely he carried two knifes on him. Also if he went home after Stride I don't think he would have got another knife, he would probably have stayed in, as the Police were beginning to swarm the area.
Hi Sarah
There was also about 20 feet between Caroline Maxwell and Mary Kelly as well, so she didn't see her from any great distance.
Hi CB
Sorry to hear about your shoulder, hope it gets better soon. And no I don't believe Carrie Brown was a victim of Jack. I believe the wounds were completely different.
Rob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Hi,
It is intresting that Mrs Maxwell was intensively questioned by the police , who could not alter her opinion, they had some reason in attempting to make her change her statement, and not disclose it at the inquest, intrestingly maurice lewis was not called, who I would have considered at least on a par with Maxwell.
My thoughts are the police did not want any imformation made public that Mary kelly may have been alive in the morning.
why?......
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 5:17 am: | |
G'day Rich,
I think it was vital that a possible time-of-death was established at her inquest. They would have 'weighed-up' the testimonies of the neighbours who heard "OH MURDER!" and considered that these were stronger than the woman across the street, who had known Mary Kelly for four months and spoken to her twice.
I believe Mary Kelly's inquest was way too short though.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 831
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
Robert,
Where did you get the information that Mary was about 20 feet away from Mrs Maxwell? Surely if you were going to talk to someone you would get closer to them than that otherwise you'd be shouting at each other. If I was Mrs Maxwell and I had seen Mary I would probably have gone over the road to talk to her. Also, Dorset Street wasn't vary wide so even if she was on the other side of the street she probably would have known who she was talking to. If her eyesight was dodgy she wouldn't have been able to be as certain that it was Mary, especially with the police telling her that she was killed in the night.
Maybe Mrs Maxwell saw Mary's ghost, there, that's an explanation but I don't believe that somehow. I'm sure that it was Mary she spoke to that morning.
Leanne,
If you know someone for four months, it doesn't matter how often you talk to someone for you to be sure who that person is. I knew people in my school and some of them I only spoke to a couple of times but I would still know them easily.
I also don't believe that the cry of "Oh Murder" came from Mary at all or if it did then it was a dream as Richard suggests but even that I find a bit to much of a coincidence.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 6:07 am: | |
G'day Sarah,
OK, no one's going to convince you. You're entitled to your opinion.
Caroline Maxwell said that she went out to buy her husbands breakfast, (they lived across the other side of the street). She saw someone near the entrance to Miller's Court and said "What brings you up so early?"
She had other things on her mind, hadn't seen Mary for the last few weeks, and only added the names to her story when she gave it at the inquest! Believe her if you like.
LEANNE |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:21 am: | |
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your response and your best wishes. I think it is possible that Brown was a ripper victim. I read an article in an issue of ripperologist that suggest that the wounds were similiar except for the fact that her throat was not cut. I dont want to mention the writers name because it has been so long sense I read the article and I dont want to misrepresent anything he may have said. He suggest that the intestines were taken out and the womb was mutilated. Do you think that the Brown murder could have been a copycat murder?
I do think However that Tabrum could have been a ripper victim. I dont think the ripper would have changed his MO because stabeing a women 39 times is physically and mentally exhausting. I think it is possible he changed his mo because he needed more of a thrill. He changed his weapon because he needed a different one to carry out his crimes. I agree with you Rob I think he only carried one knife.
I dont think that Maxwell saw Kelly. I dont think anyone saw Kelly after 2:30am However, you and Sarah have good reason to believe different. As the Billy Joel song goes " She may be wrong but for all I know she may be right. "
Take Care, CB
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 228
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hi Sarah
Phillip Sugden in his book said "on the first occasion - they conversed across the street." Although I must admit it isn't very clear from Caroline Maxwell's Police statement or her Inquest testimony where she was standing, she did live on the opposite side of Dorset Street about 3 doors to the west of Millers Court. Anyway I do believe she did see Mary Kelly.
Hi CB
I believe Carrie Browns mutilations weren't that severe and while some of the areas her murderer attacked were similar to Jacks I think they were performed quite differently. To be perfectly honest my knowledge of Carrie Browns murder isn't that great. Wolf Vanderlinden is the expert on Carrie and if he said she was or wasn't than I would agree with what he said, without question.
All the best
Rob |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your post. I too would respect Mr. Vanderlindens oppinion on the subject. I dont think posting about Carrie Brown is what Richard intended when he started this thread. So I apologise to him for getting off topic.
Take Care CB |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 446
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 1:15 am: | |
If Mary were alive Friday morning and went into Ringer's for a drink as she said, the police surely would have confirmed this with the bartender and other patrons. The fact that there was no such confirmation indicates to me that Mary was not in Ringer's Friday morning (probably because she was already dead). This casts great doubt on the whole statement of Mrs. Maxwell.
Andy S. |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 222
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
Following is the conversation Maxwell had with Mary as it's presented here on the Casebook under ‘Inquest Testimony’. I’ve left out the Coroner’s questions/remarks.
When I came out of the lodging-house she was opposite.
I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?"
She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad. I've had a glass of beer, and I've brought it up again";
I left her, saying that I could pity her feelings.
And extra thing in her police statement is that Caroline Maxwell advised Mary to go to the Ringers to have ½ a pint, to which Mary responded by saying that she already had it, etc.
Maxwell’s statements paint a picture of a casual and very short conversation, for which she needn’t have crossed the street and this is exactly what at least her inquest testimony suggests.
Regarding the possibility of a mistaken identity the following things might be worth something. At the inquest Maxwell deposed she had known Mary for about 4 months and that she had only spoken to her on two earlier occasions. She also stated Mary was a young woman who never associated with anyone. In her police statement she stated she hadn’t seen her for 3 weeks and in the ‘Illustrated Police News’ of 17 November she described Mary as a little woman.
The fact that Mary Jane clearly wasn't a woman who never associated with anyone and that she probably was a rather tall woman, taken in conjunction with the relatively short period that Maxwell had known Mary Jane and the fact that she had only spoken to her twice before, make it quite feasible that Maxwell didn't know her that well and indeed mistook the woman she saw to be Mary Jane.
In this respect Andy’s point that there is no official confirmation indicating that Mary was in Mrs. Ringer's on Friday morning, something the police surely would have tried to get, is another point against Maxwell having seen Mary Jane.
Now, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, these are just some things to ponder.
Frank
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Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 4:40 am: | |
Rob wrote:
"Wolf Vanderlinden is the expert on Carrie and if he said she was or wasn't than I would agree with what he said, without question."
Wow. That's a remarkable amount of trust. There are lots of Ripper experts, and they invariably disagree with each other. It's not like Wolf is the only person doing research on Carrie Brown or even necessarily the leading expert, and even if he were that wouldn't make him infallible. Michael Conlon has done a lot of work researching the Brown case and has conclusions completely opposite of Wolf's.
I don't think Brown necessarily was a Ripper victim, but Wolf's insistence that she couldn't be definitely isn't proven. |
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