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Randy Scholl
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 6:18 am: |       |
Having been studying this topic for a very short time, I occasionally come across certain (apparently) British terms in various books and on this site which are confusing to an ignorant American like myself, but for which it seems to be taken for granted that the reader will know what it being referred to. A good example would be the so-called "deerstalker hat" -- which for some reason conjures up images of Sherlock Holmes's hat, although I have no idea if that's what's meant by it. (I have this sneaking suspicion that the British are more "hat-conscious" than Americans, and thus there's a plethora of hat-related terms, such as the "pork-pie hat" which is another type of hat I'm not real clear on) Another example would be the phrase "shabby genteel" which I've seen often enough in the context of this topic, but never quite understood until someone explained it in an email as meaning something along the lines of "dressing shabbily but trying to maintain an air of dignity" (Is that close?)
On a related note, I keep running across statements regarding local geography where it seems to be taken for granted that the reader will know where these places are, and most likely this is true for most British readers, but I doubt you'll find the average American will recognize the names of various boroughs of London and probably even a lot of major cities in England. (A good example, I don't think I'd ever even heard of a city called "Dorset" before reading this board.) But when it gets to the point where even streets in London are taken for granted as being recognizable to the reader, one has to wonder if the demographic focus of the writer is a little too specialized. The worst point came up a few days ago while skimming through the A-Z, and finding a reference to a prostitute spotted with a possible suspect at "Heneage Street" and I nearly ruined my eyes trying to find the street on the Whitechapel map. (They should really provide a street-locating key on these maps they enclose.)
On a brighter note, lest anyone think me too much of a provincial American oaf, I've actually known for quite some time that after counting all of the holes in Blackburn, Lancashire,(4000, or so I hear), that they can now determine how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 82
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 6:12 pm: | |
Hi Randy,
I'm a Yank, too, but I've travelled quite a bit to England (London, anyway). Some of the differences in terminology and idiom are interesting.
A deerstalker, hat is ideen the twin-peaked (in America we would say "twin-billed") "Sherlock Holmes" cap. What we call a Derby is in England a "Bowler," or in Victorian times, a "Billycock." I saw a picture of a "Wideawake" on this message boards some time ago. For lack of a better description I would call it a Fedora with a wide brim. A British sailor cap is nothing lke an American Navy sailor cap. The British cap is round with a single peak (bill) and often with ribbons affixed to the back. Shabby Genteel is as you might guess a person dressed in well-worn but once-nice clothes, possibly semi-formal. In other words, a person of some culture but "down on his luck."
As to geography, you just have to study maps. But there is no substitute for actually travelling about. Check the airfares in Feb/March. Last Winter time I flew roundtrip from the Midwest for $435 roundtrip.
First thing I remember when visiting London: Look RIGHT when crossing the street!!!! Second thing: Brush up on my English -- Lift not Elevator, Pavement or Footpath not Sidewalk, "Mind" something not "Watch" something, I want my food to "take away" not "to go," Crisps not Chips (unless I mean French Fries), Torch not Flashlight, Boot/Bonnet not Truck/Hood. And one I learned last trip: Trousers not Pants (it seems that "pants" mean "underpants"!).
Andy
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Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
Sorry, Randy. You're looking at the age-old problem of books for specialists and books for beginners. Robin Odell, Tom Cullen and Don Rumbelow all wrote excellent books introducing the case and its terms of reference to novices. Don's has never been out of print - and deserves its standing as the best introduction. Those of us who came later would be using up really valuable space if we went all over the explanatory grounds again. As it is, I groan when I see I've got to read yet another blow-by-blow account of the basic murders in order to find out what some new researcher or theorist has discovered or is propounding.
The A-Z is not intended as an introduction to the case. It is a reference book reminding those who already know of what they may want to refresh their memories on, and, we hope, drawing attention to new ideas in updates. The first edition contained lots of the sort of topographical detail on street names that you want, but it had to be dropped to make way for new research in later editions.
If you're going to study anything connected with England, you might want to read some general background before you start. I've never before encountered anybody wondering why Hardy's county (or shire) of Dorset had not been brought to their attention as a city.... If everybody writing about anything on England has to spell out the counties and other major topography... well... a lot of us might give up reading in sheer exasperation. You would not, I think, extend much sympathy to the old Oxford don who deservedly lost his recorded wager that "there is not in America a state with the ridiculous name of Oklahoma".
All the best,
Martin F |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 599
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 6:49 pm: | |
Hi Randy and Andy
The Americans always seem to me to concentrate on the functions of things, e.g. the example above, "sidewalk" for "pavement." Also they seem to want to use the fewest possible syllables e.g. an area becomes a zone.
Anyway, here's a few more : over here cigarettes can be fags, and your cigarette butts are our dog-ends. Your bums are our vagrants, because our bums are bottoms. We have taps instead of fawcetts, and chemists instead of drug stores. We reach towns instead of hitting them, and have the underground instead of the subway.
By the way, are pipes still popular over there? Over here they're almost becoming obsolete.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 83
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 7:44 pm: | |
If I could be forgiven for a bit of revelry in American-English translation, a few more observations (of course, this is all "tongue-in-cheek")  :
Robert, you have a point about our generally wanting to simplify things. But it does not always hold. Consider your "Straight On" vs. our "Straight Ahead." But our "Sailboat" to your "Sailing Boat" and our "Call" to your "Ring Up." Often you Brits use a much simplified "down to earth" term: "Lift" vs. "Elevator", "Way Out" vs. "Exit". But not always: "Perambulator" vs. "Stroller?"
Then there are words with very different meanings: "pants" (see above); subway (in America, your Tube; in England a subterranian pedestrian crossing), "pickles" (here always pickled cucumbers or "gerkins"; there could be pickled anything else but cucumbers).
Then there is the nasty matter of customs. Just try to get a decent cup of hot tea in America, I dare you!  . It's about as hard as getting a decent cup of coffee in London (cappuccino excepted). . While I sometimes get a Coke served with a bit of ice now in London (in spite of the fact that printed on the Coke bottle are the words "Best served ice cold") I have yet to be offered a free refill, even though it costs £1.50 vs. $1.50 here!
Ah, well. It's what makes the world go 'round. Now, truly, I love you Brits, or I wouldn't keep coming back!  .
Andy |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 602
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 8:13 pm: | |
Hi Andy
That's terrible news about the tea. But I'm sure I read somewhere that the Indians themselves don't care that much for tea - they grow it to sell to us. I think coffee is beginning to overtake it here.
I think the ultimate in simplification must be one of your Presidents. You'd know more about this than me, but I think it was Calvin Coolidge, famous for being taciturn. A woman at a dinner party told him as a conversational gambit that her friend had bet her that she wouldn't get more than two words out of him.
"You lose."
Robert |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 413
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 9:18 am: | |
Very interesting thread and nice to see some posts on the lighter side of life too:-)
One thing interests me: there is one influence - and from what I read one that is growing - that is at work in the US much more than here in UK. That is the Hispanic influence. Can anyone tell me if any Spanish terms have passed into everyfay use in the US?
Thanks for the info
Chris
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 414
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
From personal experience with the US friends I have met in the UK, what perplexed them most was all the terms we seem to have for ourselves. Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdon, the British Isles - and they are all different in meaning!!!
Also, just to confuse the issue, there are two parts of what is normally thought of as the United Kingdon which aren't! I am referring to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man which have their own parliaments and are classified politically as Crown dependencies. Even more ananchronistic, one of the Channel isles, Sark, is still ruled in a feudal system with its own ruler called the seigneur and all sorts of strange restrictions - motor vehicles are forbidden, among others.
Just a few thoughts about this strange land we live in!!
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
I think we should probably move this discussion over to Pub Talk since we have gotten rather far afield. I'll give my responses there.
Andy
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Randy Scholl
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 5:16 am: | |
As this thread appears to have migrated to the Pub Talk section, I'll just give a brief response to Martin Fido. Your points are certainly well-taken, and bear in mind that my original post was rather tongue in cheek.
It would however, be nice if a website like this, which otherwise is quite broad in scope, included such things as a glossary and several indexed maps of not only the Whitechapel area, but greater London (including all of its boroughs) and perhaps even a larger map of Great Britain with various points of interest, just to have something to refer back to when the need arises. |
Brenda Love
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
Mr. Scott,
we have had a tremendous influx of Hispanic immigrants into my area of the US (Norh Carolina) in the past 5 years. What is interesting is that the Hispanic terms do not seem to be coming into the language very much (other than food terms)....we are being encouraged more and more to learn Spanish. I am considering a class in comminucation Spanish...people here who can speak it have no problem finding good jobs. Employers are desperate for people who can translate because there is such a market for the Hispanics. |
Neil K. MacMillan
Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 5:45 pm: | |
And keep in mind that American spelling had noty yet been defined. The proper spelling in 1888 was the British spelling of words Centre etc. Neil |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 6:39 pm: | |
Actually Neil, the correct spellings in 1888 would probably have been the present American spellings. It was around about that time we English decided to put the U in colour, humour etc. and reverse the ER in centre and theatre.
Quite why we did it I don't know but it adds to the fun.
Cheers, Mark |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 106
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 11:58 pm: | |
"England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
--George Bernard Shaw
   |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
Erin, here's a story from Osbert Sitwell, "Laughter in the Next Room" :
Sitwell's father has asked him what the word 'blotto' means.
"I replied, it meant tired - very tired.
'A term of military origin, I presume, Osbert?'
'Indian, I should say, father, like tiffin and mufti, and perhaps muffin.'
'Very interesting.'
After that he adopted the new expression, and, a few days later, when two ancient American men came over to luncheon, remarked at the end of the meal with genial condescension, 'I've had rooms prepared for you for a siesta after lunch, in case you feel blotto. I'm completely blotto myself!' The two Americans looked astonished, and on their return to Florence complained to their friends that it was not the sort of thing they expected a dignified English gentleman like Sir George to say to them."
Robert
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
Whatho Robert,
I know "blotto" to mean very drunk (otherwise "pissed"). Does it have another meaning in America (as "pissed" does)?
Cheers, Mark |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 397
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Blotto means so drunk that you are insensible or out on your feet. It would be like calling someone sh*t-faced.
It could be read as saying "I see you are too sh*t-faced to remain conscious for long."
Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
Hi Mark, Gary
Yes, "very drunk" was the meaning I read in the story. I think this was an impish prank played by Osbert on his dad.
I don't know where 'blotto' comes from, but I know the word is used in America, e.g. the Laurel and Hardy film of that name. It couldn't have been too rude at that particular time, though, or L and H would have chosen another title.
Robert |
Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 9:10 pm: | |
I live in Texas and I agree that the main area of linguistic carryover is food terms. With Hispanic cuisine comes terminology: taco, tortilla, con queso, etc. etc. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 7:04 pm: | |
Perhaps blotto comes from the idea of blotting paper being saturated.
Cheers, Mark (who's getting thirsty)
ps. Another British term for very drunk: rat-arsed |
Jeff leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
Hi Guys
Read your postings with some amusement.
Largely because The East End is my manor, born within the sound of Thames Television, as they said when I was a boy. The truth is, as my 10 year old daughter will confirm, that at the age of 41, "Dad your such a Geek."
Language is not a fixed thing, it is in constant change and flux, if your want to know the speek on the streets of London your better of consulting MTV (Europe) than a dictionary.
It is also likely that any journalists in 1888 probably had the same problem with spelling and interpreting any dialects used by the residants of the Eastend at the time. Who knows what interpretations were put on the words of the lower classes, by people of the press (who had some education) or people from differant classes. The Victims and the people they associated with would have been illitertate (I generalize) perhaps dyselexic (like myself) there would have been a mixture of accents from differant cultures.
London is, and was, a melting pot of language, culture and accents.
The fact is, that as an American, you have difficulties with language, I find refreshing An old Eastend git like myself has difficulties understanding me own kids. Who knows what language problems existed between journalists, policemen, corroners and officials and the illiterate proliteriate of the time.
Language and interpetations of language, is something we should all consider. The Tower of Babel is a better analogy than George Bernard Shaw.
Hang lose dudes, and never forget that we are all seperated by language and the interpetation of language.
Keep questioning the speek. Who knows what miss interpretations happened between what was said and what was written. You are not seperated by a common tounge, we all are.
Titfa's off to our American cousins and keep the questions coming; perhaps even expand them. G'day, Hav'a nice day, coshdee, Watchya, etc etc. Jeff |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 115
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 1:33 am: | |
Thanks for that anecdote, Robert. I enjoyed it.
While we're on the subject, can someone please explain to me what "stays" are? Are they perhaps like a corset, or are they those clips women used to employ to keep their nylons up?
Here's another: What, exactly, does it mean to get "buckled?" I interpreted it as being caught or stopped in some way, but if someone would care to elaborate on its meaning for me, I would be much obliged (as my kin from the American South would say). |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 188
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 5:08 am: | |
Erin,
You have to remember the some of these english terms mentioned are Victorian English terms. Personally, I have no idea what stays are or buckled means and I'm English through and through.
By the way, it was a while ago but I just wanted to comment on the following:-
"Consider your "Straight On" vs. our "Straight Ahead." But our "Sailboat" to your "Sailing Boat" and our "Call" to your "Ring Up." Often you Brits use a much simplified "down to earth" term: "Lift" vs. "Elevator", "Way Out" vs. "Exit"."
Never have I said I will "ring up someone" and I have often said "straight ahead". I use both "way out" and "exit" and both "lift" and "elevator". I don't call a boat any of those two things.
Just wanted to point that out.
Sarah |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 9:12 am: | |
Hi, Sarah and Erin:
The "stays" are technically the whalebone that you may have heard was used to stiffen the corsets worn in Victorian days, although I think the term can be used roughly to mean the corset as well, i.e., if we said "The lady wore stays."
The term "buckled" probably comes from being in prison or in irons and might refer to handcuffs or leg irons or manacles. I should think it might also refer to a leather harness used for prisoners, that might have actually had a buckle or buckles, although that is a guess on my part. Perhaps someone else could address the origin of the term "buckled."
Best regards
Chris George
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 740
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 9:44 am: | |
Hi Chris
Interesting post - could the buckles you refer to be those on a strait jacket, perhaps?
Chris S |
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