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AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 636
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 9:55 am: |       |
I feel it worth the mention to say that family physicians/doctors even today have very limited surgical skills or knowledge, and most would be hard pressed to stitch a wound let alone perform abdominal surgery.
I well remember presenting myself to a family doctor/physician with a deep almost severing cut to my thumb and his sincere advice to me was to ’see a real doctor’. Of course he meant a surgeon.
I think you both do as well. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 873
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
Well, Peter,
No use to go on arguing about that, I think. I believe we just are bound to disagree on this matter. I don't believe in a doctor or a surgeon as the Ripper.
And if you read the police correspondence in The Jack the Ripper Ultimate Companion/Sourcebook, you'll see that they focused their attention in quite different directions and on a wide spectrum of suspects -- not just doctors (which I don't even believe seemed to be in majority, of those that we know of).
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 313
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
I'm getting frustrated here in the UK having no access to all my documents! But I am pretty sure I have an article from The Lancet of the time which casts doubt on the whole "one sweep of the knife" thing. But someone else would have to confirm cos I'm here for another week! |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 170
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 4:41 pm: | |
Good point, A.P. All surgeons are doctors, but not all doctors are surgeons. I think a little saying my former psychiatrist heard in med school is pretty instructive here:
Surgeons know nothing and do everything.
Psychiatrists know everything and do nothing.
Pathologists know everything and do everything, but by the time you get to them, it's too late!  |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
AP,
Just before you went on a holiday at the end of November you said to me you ‘were still waiting for someone to show me one single murder case that was ever solved by criminal profiling or Freudian rant and cant. It makes good reading but don't solve crimes.’
I posted my reaction to that when you had already packed your bags and gone away, but I guess you haven’t read it due to your holiday, so here it is again.
'Besides cynical, I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to know that criminal cases can’t be solved by profiling alone. Assuming that’s true and that you weren’t talking about profiling alone in your remark about ‘still waiting for someone to show you etc.’, I give you two cases that were solved as a result of profiling, as well as plain old detective work and a helpful public.
Paul Kenneth Bostock: he killed Caroline Osborne in August 1983 and Amanda Weedon in April 1985 in Leicester, England
Avzal Norman Simons (also known as the Station Strangler): between 1986 and 1994 he killed over twenty little boys in Mitchell’s Plane, South Africa'
Frank
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 881
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
Interesting stuff, Frank.
You don't happen to know the names of the profilers involved? As far as England is concerned, there are one or two great authorities in the field -- I can't recall their names at this instant, though.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 314
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Willing to bet the South African one is Micki Pistorius. Robert Ressler has described her as the most naturally gifted profiler he ever met. |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:32 am: | |
Glenn,
Unfortunately or fortunately, we do have different opinions on this, but my opinions can always change and have changed in the past regarding the Jack the Ripper case.
But for now, I'll stick with my belief.
Anyway,I'll pay special attention to "what the police thought" and "what the doctors said" when I receive my Jack the Ripper: An Encyclopedia by John J. Eddleston which should be coming anytime now.
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Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 171
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:12 am: | |
Yes, Peter, we all have our own beliefs, but some of us base our opinions in our own research and the expertise of others, rather than our own "gut instincts" about a subject.
Glenn, the British profiler you're thinking of is probably David Canter. Kind of a jerk, but he knows his stuff. |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:24 am: | |
What makes you think I don't do that?
I based my opinions on my own research
I based my opinions on the expertise of others.
As you can see on the boards here, I’ve quoted the doctors a couple times.
|
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:30 am: | |
Others--like John Douglas, who you quote but haven't actually read?
The opinions of the doctors--who were not, I might add, trained forensic pathologists (they weren't even pathologists at all, for that matter)--tend to vary widely. Keep in mind that they based their estimates on time of death on how warm the bodies were. Not exactly the most accurate method of detection, wouldn't you say? |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 888
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:33 am: | |
Exactly, Erin. Of course, David Canter! That was the one I had in mind. I don't know if he's a jerk though -- he seems relatively sympathetic to me -- but as you say: he certainly knows his stuff. There is another one as well, but I can't remember his name either. I'll probably end up in an old people's home before I reach 40...
By the way, I know you probably addressed your post to Peter, but I use quite a lot of gut instincts myself, and I believe it is quite essential (if one don't want to get caught up in too much theorising) -- it certainly is in ordinary police work. Gut instinct and common sense go together. To be fair to Peter, I believe I have referred more to gut instincts than Peter has. But he and I certainly interpret things differently, that's for sure.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:54 am: | |
Glenn,
Could this be the “one sweep of the knife” reference?
It’s regarding Annie Chapman’s murder.
This is from The Lancer (September 29)
The abdomen had been entirely laid open: the intestines severed from their mesenteric attachments had been lifted out of the body, and placed by the shoulder of the corpse: whilst from the pelvis, uterus and its appendages with the upper portion at the vagina and the posterior, two thirds of the bladder had been entirely removed. No trace of these parts had been found and the incisions were clearly cut avoiding the rectum and dividing the vagina low enough to avoid injury to the cervix uteri.
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Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:54 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
Paul Britton was the one who drew up a profile of Paul Kenneth Bostock in his book 'The Jig Saw Man' (Bantam Press - 1997), and Alan was right: Micki Pistorius was the who drew up a profile of the 'Station Stragler' in her book 'Catch me a Killer...'(Penguin Books SA - 2000).
Could the other English authority be Boon or something?
All the best,
Frank
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Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:57 am: | |
Glenn, you're absolutely right, but I think there's a difference between relying solely on your instincts and having an informed opinion about something. Cops may rely on their instincts, but that's because their instincts have been sharpened by years of experience. I certainly wouldn't attempt to argue the relative merits of chaos theory with John Nash--or with anyone else, for that matter, since I know absolutely nothing about it. However, I do know a thing or two about both profiling and mental illness (though I am by no means an expert), so it just rankles me to have my informed opinion questioned based not on experience or research but on mere speculation.
Sorry, I had what my friend calls a "Poor Me" moment. I'm done now.
A graphical representation of yours truly having a "Poor Me" moment------------>  |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 176
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:59 am: | |
Frank, I think Paul Britton is the other British authority, and it's him I was thinking of when I said Canter was a bit of a jerk. My apologies to Mr. Canter. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 889
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 2:07 am: | |
Oh yes, you are both right. Paul Britton is the other British one. Jesus, I am REALLY getting old...!
Thank you both. I'll make a note of it in my head (for what it's worth...).
Erin, that graphical representation would actually suit me better any day...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 890
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 2:14 am: | |
I haven't a clue, Peter. I am not that tip top on medical issues, I must admit, although I have some police and forensic handbooks at home. But I don't know if I can spot anything in that text that could indicate it. It doesen't say that it's been done with ones "sweep". But there are probably those here that more suitable than me to answer that, as far as interpreting medical stuff.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 640
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 6:28 am: | |
Yes, Frank, thank you for jogging the old memory, I had quite forgotten that conversation.
Firstly I do believe a healthy degree of cynicism to be an essential requirement for anyone posting on these boards, considering some of the tripe that pops up every so often, not that often thank goodness, but it is out there.
I believe my original post was in response to another poster who was claiming that criminal profiling alone had solved many major murder cases, and I simply asked them to cite one single case to satisfy my cynicism… this they failed to do.
Just like you I do believe criminal profiling to be a useful addition to the tools of a modern police force engaged in the hunt for a serial killer, but perhaps less useful than other more practical means of detection, such as knocking on doors and the proper examination of information under their control.
However we must also be acutely aware that some modern criminal profilers have actually set back murder investigations by years with their Freudian ravings and nonsensical reasoning. Examples abound. The Yorkshire Ripper being a classic, when information under police control that pointed directly to Sutcliffe as the killer was ignored for six long years - where many other women died - in favour of chasing some imaginary bogeyman invented by profilers.
I do have a lot of time and respect for profilers who make common sense and stay away from book writing, however I have no time for the likes of Canter who when asked to profile Duffy, who was known as the ’Railway Rapist’ in the press because all the attacks - and murders - had taken place close to railway tracks or railway stations, came up with the brilliant suggestion that the rapist would probably work for the railway or at least commute a lot with trains, and very likely lived close to a railway station.
Well Yippee! I thought.
The guy probably got paid five grand for that, and any kid could have told you that.
It is in this very department of murder investigation where profilers are doing nothing more than studying the entrails of chickens, and making a bad job of it at that.
So let us not be blind to the faults of these modern gods.
|
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 208
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 7:39 am: | |
We had a poster on the old boards, Dr. Ind, who was a specialist in the area of women's cancer. I had the impression that he had done quite a few hysterectomies. I believe he said it would not take a lot of expertise to remove the relevant organs with one sweep of a knife. He even posted some pics from anatomy textbooks to support his point. |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 178
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
A.P.: Alas, not all profilers are created equal--John Douglas doesn't think too highly of the Yorkshire Ripper profile, either. Evidently he embarrassed the detectives on that case a bit when he told them flat-out that the tape was a false lead--which it was. More and more I'm thinking you would like this guy. A Freudian he is not! Ressler is a bit more academic, but both seem to base their approaches on good, old-fashioned common sense combined with their own experience and interviews with serial and other "sex" killers. Furthermore, Douglas is always quick to point out that profilers do not deserve the credit for "solving" crimes; instead, he repeatedly states his belief that it is the hard work of the police which brings even the most challenging cases to satisfactory conclusions. Profiling should be treated as any other forensic aid would, as just another tool in the cop's crime-solving arsenal. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 899
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 12:16 am: | |
Yes, he is indeed one of the more humble characters in the business -- what is one of the things I like most about him. And I agree that he's certainly not a Freudian. Profiling is a tool to be used alongside and as a complement to the other investigation methods, nothing else -- with all its advantages and shortcomings.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 8:05 am: | |
Returning to the issue of organized/disorganized and degrees thereof, something posted by AP on another thread got me thinking. She said that when the discoverers of Tutankhamen's tomb were going through the preliminaries they did so with scientific precision, decorum and respect for the dead. When they got to the actual mummy they went wild. I see this in JTR as well. He seems to become more disorganized the closer he gets to the actual kill and mutilation. The preliminaries seem to be conducted with more decorum and caution. I realize that someone is going to remind me that he had the presence of mind to run away right in the middle of the Stride kill, but I still maintain as I always have that all these things are a matter of degree. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 652
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 4:48 am: | |
Diana
I always enjoy it so much when somebody - like you- says what I wanted to originally say but makes a much better job of it.
This is what struck me as well, that yes, there was a moment of complete and utter madness where chaos ruled, but before and after that moment there was only a complete and utter calm that leaves no trace of its passing. Unlike the moment of madness of course, which is obvious even now.
I think this speaks volumes about the nature of the killer, and it is to this very end that I direct all my efforts.
You probably already know that I don’t believe Stride was a victim of Jack… for the simple reasons given above.
There was no unreported calm, just a lot of noise and activity before and after the event of Stride’s death; equally so there was no well reported moment of complete and utter madness.
Think about it.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 907
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 2:16 pm: | |
I can go along with Diana's description as well, I think it is quite possible and reasonable.
AP, regarding Stride (although this not really the proper thread for it):
"You probably already know that I don’t believe Stride was a victim of Jack… for the simple reasons given above.
There was no unreported calm, just a lot of noise and activity before and after the event of Stride’s death; equally so there was no well reported moment of complete and utter madness."
That is probably because you -- as many others -- maybe consider Schwartz' aggressive man as her killer (which I don't)? Or am I speculating?
Besides that, we have no statements whatsoever describing what actually happened the moments between Schwartz' man assaulted her and when she was found and whether there really was "complete and utter madness" or not. So Jack the Ripper can't be ruled, in my view.
All the best
Keep that brandy coming, AP.
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
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