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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 1:52 pm: |       |
Hi Natalie
I'd always imagined that Jack would have needed to keep ripping until he was incarcerated or died, etc. But since coming on this site I've become aware that, apparently, murderers like Jack can have periods when they leave off from their activities (though I feel that they're likely to start again sooner or later, unless incarcerated etc).
I'm afraid the Polish Jew theory makes my head spin!
Robert
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Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
....and mine Robert!Natalie. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 273
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 2:17 pm: | |
I have to say that the Polish Jew theory was the first one which really impressed me, but later as I learned more about the case I began to see for myself the flaws (thinking for myself, David should be proud of me!) This isn't to say that I don't think the Ripper could have been a Polish Jew, or even that I don't think that the Ripper could have been David Cohen, simply that I cannot see how David Cohen could possibly have been the person being referred to by MacNaghten, Anderson and Swanson as Kosminski. As I said in the post above, just as the dates don't work one way for Aaron Kosminski, so they don't work for various reasons in the other direction for David Cohen. |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
Thanks for your post Glenn.I dont have a problem with anything you say here. The way you suggest he may have behaved I think sounds quite likely.
The only problem for me Glenn is when you decide he is unintelligent because since we dont know who the ripper was as yet[if indeed we ever will]
we really cant determine his intelligence.What we
know for certain is that he was never caught.
For me this implies that he used his wits.
There is another scenario thats possible;
We are now aware that there appear to have been a number of individuals living within easy walking distance of one another at this time who were either engaged in murderous attacks or violent in one way or another viz Cohen;Cutbush;Chapman and maybe Tumblety,maybe Kosminski,maybe Druitt.Isnt
it just possible that the murders were committed by several people?
The murder of MJK was indoors and although similar to the others in some ways it was also different.
The murder of Elizabeth Stride was outside,yes but it too was different.
So even out of the so called canonical murders,
two of those five contain different features and given the publicity[press,waxwork shows etc]couldnt one or two or more have been attemting copycat killings?
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
Alan-that is about where I am over the Polish Jew theory -when Nathan Kaminsky is inserted as well
its even more head-spinning. Natalie. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 773
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 5:15 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
"I used to wonder whether Aaron was admitted because he'd threatened his sister. But I doubt if he'd have been listed as harmless at the time of his admission, if the very reason for his admission had been his threatening the life of his sister. Maybe he threatened her some time before?"
Yes, that was my initial thought, when I first started to read about the Kosminski theory. I still believe that is the case, but I must admit I am not as sure as I used to be...
"Of course, it's possible that he was indeed a harmless man and that his family nevertheless, for whatever reason, just couldn't cope with him. If he did put up a struggle when he was taken away, that might have been natural, if from his point of view he was being kidnapped."
That is also how I first interpreted things, Robert. And I think there is a very strong possibility for this. But I still wish we knew exactly when that knife episode took place.
"On the other hand, what does his record of non-violence at the asylum really prove as far as the question of his being or not being JTR is concerned? How many women would he have seen in the male wing at Colney Hatch?"
Another good point, Robert! Well, I still think there would have been SOME indication of violence in his records (and according to the information in his records, he seems to suffer from sort of "ordinary" schizofrenia, without paranoid or violent tendencies), but nevertheless... Quite a valid point to consider, I think.
"I'm afraid the Polish Jew theory makes my head spin!"
And mine is dancing the Fandango at the moment...!
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 774
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
I agree that we can't really tell much about anything regarding the Ripper's personality, and I really haven't "decided" he was mentally ill -- I am afraid I don't have much factual basis for my beliefs here, just a hunch and what the crime scenes and the circumstances around the murder tells me. So it is really all a matter of personal interpretation of things. It could be that I am completely wrong, but what I see in the Ripper case and my gut feeling tells me that these were murders committed more by a sick individual than a cunning and calculating one. The last alternative doesen't ring true to me. But I can't say that I can deliver any proof to confirm it.
There are actually several scenarios that are possible in most of the Ripper situations, but then I am someone who likes to deduct and make a conclusion, rather than not to form an opinion at all. Then, if it should turn out that I am wrong -- so be it! I can take it.
I find it to be a bit of a stretch, though, that the murders were done by several different persons. The Ripper's MO and signature are quite special, and in most of the canonical murders, there are very strong similarities between the. I think we can assume that they were done by the same offender. As far as copy cat-killers are concerned, that can't be ruled out. The Ripper wasn't appearently the only one on a spree in London at the time, and murders like that on Frances Coles and McKenzie have been discussed as probable copy-cats.
Elizabeth Stride -- my fellow Swede -- has been debated here a long time, and she is a bit of a mystery; I would still tip the scale for her being a Ripper victim, but at the moment I really don't know what to think. Mary Jane Kelly I do believe was a Ripper victim, although I can't prove it. It happened indoors, I believe, because she was the only one with a room of her own. But that is -- as always -- a matter of debate as well.
Oh boy, Nathan Kaminsky... don't even go there... 
All the best, Natalie.
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
Hi Glenn, everyone
It looks as if Aaron really did practise self-abuse, because it's in the statement that Jacob Cohen supplied to the medical authorities.
What I don't understand is why we have this statement of Jacob Cohen, yet have no record of Kosminski's problems as seen through the eyes of the people he lived with. Surely they would have supplied the doctors with info?
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 778
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 8:56 pm: | |
Possibly, Robert. But I must confess, I am quite lost there. I have no idea how medical record files worked in England at the time. I have no idea whether they were supplied with statements from relatives or not, but it is quite possible that they weren't -- or else these witness statements were put somewhere else, without any connection to the journals themselves?
Maybe some inured researcher could straighten this out...?
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
RosemaryO'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Hi All,
Just a quicky! The mention of "hands tied behind backs", brought back memories of two prisoners in a UK prison about thirty years ago who had what was then described as "onanistic tendencies" or if you will, "compulsive masturbation pyschosis", both were held in padded-cells awaiting to be committed to Broadmoor. Their hands were tied behind their backs with stout leather straps to prevent further excessive injury to their 'organ'.
Rosey :-S |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 12:40 pm: | |
"There are actually several scenarios that are possible in most of the Ripper situations, but then I am someone who likes to deduct and make a conclusion, rather than not to form an opinion at all. Then, if it should turn out that I am wrong -- so be it! I can take it."
>>You can sure take it, all right. I've seen again and again how you come back for more along these lines.
Bullwinkle
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 9:47 am: | |
Vis a Vis escaping and intelligence -- bear in mind that animals can do this. ie the fox that raids the farmer's chicken house and is difficult to catch. This does not make the fox a genious. The rat that lives in a tenement but the residents have an awful time catching and disposing of it. Running, hiding and escaping are all instinctive actions. |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
Hi All, re;Kosminski and compulsive masturbation psychosis.
I think this could prove very helpful in terms of understanding Kosminski.
Erin, I have tried several times to trace the web site you recommen on the diagnosis of schizophrenia.Would you mind posting this website address again?I think I was away when you posted it last time[looking at the dates where its been taken offthe site].Many Thanks Natalie.
Diane;Yes its true but I"m not saying he was an academic [although unlike many I think he might have been]just that he seems to have had just too much in the way of good luck.How DID he get away with it at a time when he must have been the most hunted killer in History?Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 789
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 1:22 pm: | |
Diana!
Exactly my point as well.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 790
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Oh yes, Bullwinkle; I can take it -- if and when I feel it necessary to do so. And I am not the only one here "coming back for more". We are a persistent gang here, most of us...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 9:09 pm: | |
Natalie, no problem; it is actually on a thread here somewhere, but I simply cannot recall which one at the moment. I typed it from the DSM-IV, which I'm not inclined to do again since it was very long, but it turns out I needn't have done so, because you can find the same thing on the internet, albeit without my (brilliant) observations.
Here is a link to the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia, along with those for Schizophreniform Disorder, Schizoaffective Disorder, and others which I think would be worthwhile reading for anyone with an interest in the subject; in fact, I think they should be required reading for those wishing to make comments on this topic.  |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 95
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:03 pm: | |
Erin Many thanks.And I do agree that they are essential reading.Best Natalie; |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 97
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 5:46 am: | |
Glenn,
Just a couple of pointers: how do you know that he was "dressed in clothes that would reduce detection if blood got on them" -- there are no factual basis for this, I believe? Where did you get this from?
I am just assuming. I think the killer would have thought that red on black would be a lot harder to see than red on white.
You can't compare Hanbury Street -- a picked out murder site -- with stumbling over an occasional police officer. Hanbury Street was a complete suicide mission and if the Ripper was a clever psychopath, that site and time of day for the deed would never have come up. That is not even street smart -- just plain irrational behaviour.
There have been serial killers who have made mistakes or have taken risks.
You are making too much big a deal out of nothing, Peter. And once again, your description of the actions of a mentally unstable killer is still based on a complete degenerate or a raving lunatic. That is NOT the case.
You know this?
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Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 98
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 5:56 am: | |
Glenn,
Wynne Baxter stated:
No mere slaughterer of animals could have carried out these operations. It must have been someone accustomed to the post-mortem room.
Dr. George Bagster Philips stated:
Obviously the work was that of an expert-of one at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife
*My bold
I really don't think it matters who was more qualified or not. Philips put it simple; the killer secured the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife.
In my opinion: skillful.
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 863
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 9:23 am: | |
Peter,
Welcome back. Hope you've had a nice holiday as well.
"I am just assuming. I think the killer would have thought that red on black would be a lot harder to see than red on white."
Once again, I am not sure about the red thing, but black was the most common colour on men's clothes.
"There have been serial killers who have made mistakes or have taken risks."
Oh yes, but if you are a smart criminal there are risks and mistakes, and then there are... unnecessary risks and mistakes. Just because he got away with it doesen't mean he set out for those risks on purpose.
"You know this?"
No, but I doubt that a raving lunatic would get away with killings of this sort, and in a serial manner. I know that many are still expecting me to reason from the raving lunatic aspect, because I have done so in the past. I have changed my mind, though.
Skilful? Hardly, Peter. And I don't believe we automatically should take Baxter's and Philips' words for it. Others have had different opinions about it. Although I am not a medical expert, I believe that you would only need anatomical knowledge and be handy with a knife to do this, not necessarily medical skill.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 101
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 5:10 pm: | |
Glenn,
Once again, I am not sure about the red thing, but black was the most common colour on men's clothes.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. Black would have been the best color to wear for him.
Oh yes, but if you are a smart criminal there are risks and mistakes, and then there are... unnecessary risks and mistakes. Just because he got away with it doesen't mean he set out for those risks on purpose.
Either way, his intelligence was shown by getting away with it-planned or not. Street intelligence.
I doubt that a raving lunatic would get away with killings of this sort, and in a serial manner. I know that many are still expecting me to reason from the raving lunatic aspect, because I have done so in the past. I have changed my mind, though.
That is what I’ve being saying. JTR had some street smarts. He knew what he was doing. To me, no raving lunatic would be able to get away with this many murders.
Skilful? Hardly, Peter. And I don't believe we automatically should take Baxter's and Philips' words for it. Others have had different opinions about it. Although I am not a medical expert, I believe that you would only need anatomical knowledge and be handy with a knife to do this, not necessarily medical skill.
In my opinion, neither you, me, nor a butcher/fish porter would be able to secure that pelvic organ with one sweep of a knife. So much for the "slash and grab" theory.
Also, my point was not to emphasis who was saying this, my point was to emphasis that "one sweep of the knife" aspect of it.
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 866
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:01 pm: | |
Hi Peter,
I for my part have never believed in the "one sweep with the knife" approach. I think it is fairly evident in the injuries of the victims, that he slashed his way through a bit more than that -- which I prefer to interpret as a less probable sign of medical skills. I have no idea where this "one sweep with the knife" is coming from.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
Glenn,
I cited this earlier:
Dr. George Bagster Philips stated:
Obviously the work was that of an expert-of one at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife.
I don't know that it is a matter of believing.
I think Jack the Ripper actually did what Philips said.
If he was talking about one murder or all them, I don’t know, he didn’t mention it.
I’ll have to find out.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 871
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:47 pm: | |
OK Peter,
I thought I had read it somewhere; I can't remember which victim he referred to, though. I understand it better now, I interpreted it wrongly as the whole ripping process.
It could very well be that Philips was correct in that remark about the pelvis -- I can't tell. But there are also other indications on that medical skills are questionable. See for example Eddowes, with half-destroyed organs, with parts of them cut away, when it would be neater for a medical man to just remove them and cut them loose without chopping them into pieces.
I tend to lean more against the possibility of a man handy with the knife, like a butcher etc. AND with an anatomical interest of the human body, rather than a medical surgeon -- with all respect to Dr Philips' statement.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter Sipka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Peter
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
Glenn,
To me, one "medical" type trait in one of the rippings makes me lean more towards a man with good knowledge of dissection-a medical man.
This may sound stupid and simple, but I think he did it when he wanted to or perhaps how Gary Rowlands put it.
In The Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper he states:
It was common knowledge that, following the murder of Annie Chapman because of the degree of surgical skill employed by the perpetrator, the police had begun to focus their attention in the direction of a medical man and had thus begun making enquiries into the movements of all the physicians residing in the area.
To add on what he was trying to say was that JTR may have changed his MO a bit to avoid suspicion. (Sounds familiar)
Of course, he was talking about his Dr. suspect-Dr. Barnardo.
In the Eddowes murder you were mentioning that there was “sloppiness” shown.
I believe there was skill shown and no skill like you had said.
So, a very weird murder.
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