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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |       |
I have been reading some case history's, anonymous of course, on unfortunates with Compulsive obsessive disorder., and they make interesting reading.
A classic symptom is the careful aligning or arranging of everyday objects, dinner plates, ornaments, magazines and newspapers, etc, in a very precise manner, i.e. one man had to stack dinner plates every day in descending order from six down to one plate on his kitchen table before he felt he could leave his house, on his return he would pick them up from the lone plate up to the sixth plate, place them in his cupboard, and start all over the next time he left the house. Another man arranging his newspapers exactly North South with a compass. These people are normal in every respect barring their COD (and please no jokes about fish here, life apparently is hell for these people). They know what they do is irrational, but have no power to prevent their strange behaviour. COD can start in childhood, but more often than not starts in young adulthood. Trauma brings on its symptoms, a bereavment events of that order. The sufferer blames himself for the event and enters into a period of obsessional actions
So I was thinking if there were any elements regarding the Ripper murders in respect to COD.
The killer of Annie Chapman’s had taken her belongings and carefully arranged them at her feet, why take the time to do this when any minute someone could have came into the yard. A trait of COD?
The precise marks left on Eddowes face, Martin Fido refers to them in his book as obsessional.
The fact that one of Eddowes legs had been bent by her killer at the thigh and knee, not worth regarding on its own, but Kelly’s leg had been arranged in the same manner.
The arranging of Kelly’s breasts again at her feet, Eddowes colon placed between her arm and her body. The placing of Kelly’s hand into her body. Traits of COD, or mere coincidence?
And of course the dates of the murders surely they have a pattern.
As I said sufferers of COD are aware of their disorder, and thus try to heal themselves of some of their more extreme symptoms by introducing an extra set of rules to alleviate some of their extreme actions. Thus the man with the plates conditioned himself to stop his plate antics by saying the word plates aloud to himself three times upon entering his kitchen, this he rationalised was better than going to the trouble of getting all those plates out, and it worked, he could accept this compromise, still not cured but able to get on with his life a little easier. And that’s how they live their lives, trying not to have to arrange papers, stack plates, and mutilate woman, no surely not.
Could JTR after dismantling Kelly have fulfilled his compulsion, could he have been working up to this in order to cure himself of his obsessional behaviour, and after the Kelly murder drift into obscurity. Could if you were able to walk down the Whitechapel road in December 1888 hear a man muttering to himself murder, murder, murder?
Cludgy.
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Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 140
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:58 pm: | |
Such behavior as you're describing can occur with many disorders, particularly in those who have been previously institutionalized. It's an attempt to gain control over what seems like an out-of-control situation. Furthermore (and I realize this is anecdotal evidence), I haven't heard of many OCD/OCPD (OCPD=Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder--they are not the same thing) sufferers who resort to violence; my mom and I both have OCD "traits" (not the full-blown disorder) and while I have a pretty bad temper my mom is a very docile person. I would expect that if someone with OCD/OCPD were to inflict violence on anyone, it would be themselves.
That being said, I think you may be on to something, at least as far as the killer's apparently compulsive, ritualistic behavior goes. To my mind, such manifestations are more likely to have been the result of another psychological problem; namely, schizophrenia or a schizoid disorder. Similar behavior occurs in schizophrenics; however, the difference is that OCD sufferers realize that their obsessions and compulsions have no basis in reality--that is, that they are completely irrational. Schizophrenics have no such insight. However, the two can and frequently do occur together, although this is more true for OCD than for OCPD.
(Message edited by Rapunzel676 on December 16, 2003) |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
Thanks Erin For this excellent explanation.I think many people have some of the symptoms.
When my mother was ill for a long period during my childhood I used to do a lot of ritualistic "touching wood" avoiding certain stepping stones etc. Even now if I am a bit stressed I revert to this kind of thing. Best Natalie |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 605
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 2:14 pm: | |
I enjoy the thinking behind this thread, very satisfying and provoking.
It is also worth considering that animals confined to captive conditions - and this includes us humans - do quickly develop obsessive behavioural patterns that can be highly anti-social and dangerous. I have now - to my utter dismay - forgotten the correct term for this behaviour, but a good example is the polar bear who charges the plate glass viewing window in the zoo where people have teased him in the past, and when it is boarded up he still charges it at least a hundred times a day, because the action has become imprinted through association.
In other words what we humans call ‘routine’.
This obsessive association can be broken, as was pointed out, but in animals not worth with words. One of my own dogs suffers from this obsessive behaviour, built up from being attacked as a puppy by other dogs, and now associates any living creature as a potential threat and attacks it. As he weighs almost 150lbs and is possessed of fangs like a grizzly bear this can present problems, so I have conditioned him over a period of a year to attack a large piece of heavy rope instead. As soon as a living creature approaches he attacks the rope. People and their pets are grateful for this redirected aggression therapy and the rope goes everywhere with me.
Unfortunately I must say that I can’t agree that Jack was obsessive in his behaviour and all of the incidences mentioned concerning such behaviour were probably incidental and accidental. In particular I do have a problem with the so-called ‘posing’ of the victims - legs spread etc - and have pointed out before that when someone is murdered it is quite natural to find that their legs might be in a splayed posture simply because of the biological implications of sudden death.
Interesting though.
|
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 143
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 8:18 pm: | |
Fascinating stuff, A.P. Are you talking about some form of conditioning? There are some who say people are immune to it, but I'm inclined to disagree. I've heard that the behavior you're describing is somewhat common among children kept in institutions (orphanages and detention centers, for example), but I would certainly be interested to know more about this "confinement" phenomenon. Interesting how the mind adapts to even the most ghastly situations, if given time.
I'm up in the air about Jack's potential OC traits. Although some of the police and doctors thought that certain things were done "by design," it's very difficult to tell without having pictures of the crime scenes. I think a good case can be made either way.
Natalie, as I mentioned before, children will often exhibit behaviors that seem strange but have some sort of internal logic. I suppose they're defense mechanisms of some kind. When your mother was ill you probably felt that things were very much out of your control, so the OC behaviors you exhibited (and still do in times of stress) were probably a response to that stress. My fear of heights manifests in a similar fashion; I get an overwhelming urge to jump! It's not that I'm suicidal or have any desire to hurt myself, it's just that (as a friend of mine, who's a former social worker, explained), I feel so out of control in such environments that this is my mind's only way of coping with the situation. That's not an example of OC behavior, but I believe they have similar underlying reasons for their existence. Control is very important to us, particularly those who had a rather chaotic upbringing. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 4:09 am: | |
Hi Erin
I thought that conditioning was the whole basis of behaviourism. Has this theory fallen out of fashion now?
I'm no expert on any of this, but it seems to me that many of these obsessional behaviours might be described as "private superstitions".
AP, interesting about the "posing" being merely a consequence of sudden death. The question is, was Kelly posed? He must have moved her about during the time he spent in her room.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 4:42 am: | |
Erin, AP and Robert,This certainly is a thought provoking thread.
The word chaotic is very apt to describe my childhood.My mother nearly died of TB and I barely saw her for four years and my darling grandmother and Dad did their utmost to cope
[in a situation where the landlord was threatening
eviction frequently] but where I had more amd more opportunity to go about more or less as I liked.The household was divided politically too
and I tried to do a lot of refereeing-though deeply influenced by my beloved/absent left-wing mother.I often escaped it all with my imagination but returned to earth feeling highly insecure and anxious.As is usually the case you are spot on Erin.
AP -loved the tale of your dog and the polar bears
arent we just one big dysfunctional family us earth dwellers?
Robert#I see what you are getting at but then what is superstition[Mum gave me "The Golden Bough " to read long ago and its a brilliant read]
Best Natalie |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 323
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 5:02 am: | |
My boyfriend thinks I have some of these symptoms but I don't agree. I only like to have everything in even numbers all the time otherwise I feel funny in my stomach and can't function properly....but that's normal right? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 7:55 am: | |
Hi Natalie
I wasn't thinking of religion (although obviously there are points of contact between superstition and religion).
I was thinking more of, say, a sportsman who has to go through a certain "lucky" routine before a match. If anything happens to stop him performing his routine, and he becomes very anxious, perhaps to the point of actually playing badly, then it seems he has an obsessive superstition, but private to him (the routine could be anything).
I believe that if a person does something which he afterwards remembers (e.g. it's the first time he's done it), and if this action is followed shortly afterwards by an event which is very very good or very very bad, a behavioural disposition to repeat or avoid the initial (causally unconnected) action can be set up very quickly. But as I say I'm no expert on this.
Sarah, it isn't odd to be odd or even to be even.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:48 am: | |
Sarah I used to have that one too about odd and even numbers.
Robert For us who still think Druitt a possible
candidate might not this be a clue to his motive?
you know fixing himself for a game of "fives"
or performing a "ritual"-for a"fiver" hit at
cricket for so many runs? I mean if he based his prowess on the performance......
I see your point about run of the mill superstition-Natalie |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 449
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:57 am: | |
HI All
Robert- Todays conventional wisdom holds that there is likely to be organic causes for severe cases of disorders like obsessive compulsive disorder and manic-depression. They have found brain abnormalities in individuals with these disorders. Conditioning is said to be a factor in the way the diseases play themselves out in terms of an individuals ability to function with these various problems.
OCD runs in my family and I am a compulsive worrier.
They have also found that there is a so called, brain scan which is more common to criminals than those of us who don't feel the need to go out and kill someone or engage in criminal behavior.
All The Best
Gary |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 607
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 1:52 pm: | |
Well this thread is straying into areas where I do have certain expertise, particularly in regard to animal behaviour, and funnily enough we carried out studies on the aggressive behaviour of wild and captive animals in the Middle East for many years, and we found that by offering wild animals salt ‘licks’ in such intensely hot climates we were able to increase their aggressive behaviour way beyond the ‘norm’, this applied equally to carnivores and herbivores. Later we were able to show that Red Sea sharks were more aggressive than their counterparts in other oceans of the world simply because of the high salt content and temperature of the water. This also proved true for studies we carried out on sea snakes in the Arabian Gulf waters, at particular times of the year more attacks on humans were reported and we were able to link this conclusively to increases in water temperature and salt content.
Perhaps Jack liked his salt?
I am not yet aware of any similar experiments carried out on humans, but I am out of date here by about twenty years, for that is when we did the work.
However, the obsessive behaviour of captive animals that I referred to in my first post is most definitely not ‘organic’ in its origins but rather a learnt behaviour brought about by the limited freedom for natural expression in its artificial environment. Another classic example is the African grey parrot whose normal preening and cleaning behaviour in the wild quickly becomes an obsessive disorder when confined to a small cage and given no opportunity to express its sparkling intelligence. Within a month one has a totally bald parrot for it has pulled all the feathers out in its obsessive desire to do ‘something’.
This can easily be seen in terms of ‘self-harm’ when applied to the human condition, and it needs very little behavioural tinkering to turn this self-harm into an obsessive desire to do harm to others.
I have actually seen this happen with a Grevy zebra stallion who had been confined alone for ten years, and when finally put out with a herd of willing zebra mares killed three of them in as many minutes. The stallion was actually in a state of sexual arousal - as was obvious from his erection - when he killed the mares, but the aggressive obsessions that he had built up over ten long years of social isolation won through and rather than mate the mares he killed them.
I have been witness to such circumstances many times in both animals and humans that have suffered long periods of social deprivation.
So obviously an aggressive behavioural trait built up over a long period of social isolation is far more powerful and persuasive than an immediate sexual urge or purpose.
Which I of course have been saying for many years now.
|
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 2:25 pm: | |
So, the old nature-vs.-nurture debate has made its way onto the Casebook! Personally, I'm inclined to believe it's a little of both; for instance, I have a genetic predisposition to both OCD and bipolar disorder (manic depression), but it was a combination of factors, particularly my chaotic childhood (I'm with you on that, Natalie--for different reasons, but the effect is pretty much the same) that brought the disorders out. In terms of therapy for such conditions as BD and OCD, currently a combination of medication (for the chemical disturbances) and some version of behavior therapy are what most mental health professionals seem to use in their treatment plans. This is not to say that everyone with a genetic predisposition to a mental disorder who also experiences a difficult upbringing is necessarily going to display aberrant behavior but it certainly appears to increase the likelihood. Genetics and conditioning, as Gary said, both seem to play important roles in the development and course of most mental disorders.
I must say, however, that A.P.'s experiences with wild animals are quite instructive. I was particularly intrigued by the possibilities for the second one with regard to our shared obsession. How exactly does this phenomenon work? What mechanisms come into play when it is translated to human behavior? Is there a name for such a condition? Sorry to be so dense, A.P., but science was never my strong point! 
P.S. Hope no one feels I'm guilty of going "TMI" on you guys. I've never felt that being bipolar was something to be ashamed of, but I can respect that others may see things differently.  |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 4:01 pm: | |
Hi all
Thanks for all this info!
I'm not denying that environment plays a large part in an individual's development. If I had to stake my life on it, though, my bet would be that there's an organic basis for every mental state - healthy and unhealthy. I imagine that the brain is modified by experience.
The existence of minds, free will etc are huge philosophical and scientific issues. My bet would be that an ideally knowlegeable and competent scientist would be able to make someone see a chair, or fall in love, or guess the answer to a riddle, simply by stimulating his brain in the correct way on the operating table. But they haven't even done this sort of thing with "lower" animals yet, so if it is possible it's got a way to go.
I keep an open mind about all this, though.
Erin, what's TMI?
Robert |
Michael Blayne Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 5:29 pm: | |
Erin, it's not "TMI" (too much information), I too am Bipolar and not ashamed of it. It's just a fact of life that we deal with. Medication and Therapy work wonders.
Mikey |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 609
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
Sorry Erin, but I’m not quite sure which example I quoted intrigued you the most?
Perhaps it was the Grevy zebra stallion that had been confined for ten years in absolute isolation from its own specie?
If so, the circumstances were - and are - such that a dominant male social herding animal has no avenue for its normal territorial and sexual exploits and interactions when isolated, and then accepts other species - such as its human keepers - in the role as adversaries for the very narrow territory it now occupies and attacks them on an rapidly increasing basis until the situation reaches crisis point and the animal is either destroyed because of the danger it represents - and isolated captive Grevy zebra stallions have killed more animal keepers than any other animal - or it is subjected to a regime of total isolation which results in its death anyway.
Over a course of years the directed aggression of the Grevy stallion towards its non-specific keepers becomes routine, and the animal will then react in a chaotic and definitely murderous manner to any and all creatures that transgress its very narrow and restricted territory… it would kill a chicken that wandered by chance into its special place.
To then take such an animal and expose it in an open space to sexually demanding females of its own species - without any kind of social conditioning beforehand - is nothing less than murder.
I did warn the owners of this zoo not to do this but they chose to ignore my advice and the three mares died as a result. The poor stallion was shot. With social conditioning it would have worked. My recommendation was to put the stallion in a pen where he had a reasonable view of the mares, allow contact through the fence line for at least a month and then release him. This would have worked.
Shame, Grevy zebra are a very rare animal.
I do believe that Jack was something like this. Exposed to social conditions that he was totally unsuitable for.
I still haven’t got the name for this behaviour, it’s been twenty long years since I did this stuff, but it will come back to me soon.
|
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 107
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
On another thread I was thinking about the reason the police gave for suspecting Kosminski of being the Ripper.The only reason that has come down to us is that he was engaged in compulsive masturbation or "solitary vices".Could any analogy be drawn between the behaviour of this Grvy Zebra stallion the unfortunate mares and Kosminski and the unfortunates of Whitechapel?
Natalie |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 146
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 1:35 am: | |
Mikey, thank you for that! I guess I've never really understood the stigma that's attached to mental illness, but I suppose that things we don't fully understand may always be somewhat frightening to us. Even here when I mention my belief that the Ripper may have suffered from some kind of disorder, I think some people get this image of a stark raving lunatic, foaming at the mouth and waving knives at all and sundry. As Mikey and I prove, that just isn't always the case. Mental illness comes in many forms and some are much less apparent than others.
Robert, I would tend to agree with you, except that most people in the field seem to agree that the personality disorders (antisocial, borderline, narcisstic, etc.) do not have a basis in biology, although that may slowly be changing. The mood (depression, bipolar) and thought (schizophrenia) disorders definitely have a genetic component, however.
Natalie, I think you may be on the right track, although I'm uncertain as to how such a phenomenon would occur in humans; I'm sure A.P. can enlighten us further. I do know, however, that extreme isolation is considered one form of psychological abuse that often appears in both domestic and child abuse cases. There are many situations in which such isolation and deprivation can occur, of course; prison comes to mind, as do other forms of institutionalization. Kosminski (for one) seems too young to have spent much time in prison, but I'd be curious to know more about his upbringing. Wasn't he in his early twenties when he was first admitted? If I remember correctly his illness was said to have begun six years prior, which would have put him in his teens. This, and his subsequent behavior, would lead me to a diagnosis of schizophrenia, but as we've mentioned in the "Schizophrenic Jack" thead, this disease can manifest in all sorts of ways and some sufferers are more high-functioning than others. In the final analysis, I suppose it becomes a question of motive: If Jack and Kosminski were one and the same, and Kosminski was a schizophrenic, would his crimes have been motivated by the same factors as a non-schizophrenic killer? This is one reason I have trouble with the inclusion of Tabram as a Ripper victim; to my mind, her murder speaks of an intense and overwhelming rage, while those of the canonical victims (excepting, perhaps, Stride) seem to cross the line from simple rage to mental disturbance. I suppose it depends on how you view the murders; do you see rage, or do you see illness--or perhaps a combination of both? I really don't know.
P.S. Yes, sorry, it was the stallion example to which I referring, A.P. In my rush I forgot to point that out. |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 4:53 am: | |
Erin,I do see both myself.The bit I have trouble with is the taking away of the trophies and these
having some sexual significance [possibly].Anyway the uterus one combined with a seeming need to display his work in a somewhat obscene way.Sorry about the "if but and however" tone of this but you cant be sure of anything yet thats partly why he is so elusive.I have always thought Jack to be schizophrenic until I read one or two threads and started to wonder if he wasnt more psycopathic and having very strange needs to satisfy his fantasies[including this display stuff and the trophies].
Robert I simply dont know whether its one or the other but medical opinion seems biased to a bit of both as Erin says.Best Natalie
ps My machine goes in for service today so in case I dont get back to this thread for a week or so-Seasons Greetings[this said they may not pick it up for awhile yet today and my husband just may let me onto his a few times over Christmas]. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 7:03 am: | |
Hi Natalie
In case you're not on again before Christmas, season's greetings to you and yours.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 109
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 7:14 am: | |
12.12. its still here ! Thanks anyway Robert-Happy surfing! Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:27 am: | |
Hi AP
Re the salinity, it would be interesting to know whether this could happen in reverse - whether salmon gradually accustomed to reduced salinity were fooled into thinking that it was time to go upriver to mate, and developed aggressive characteristics, e.g. the hooks on mouths that the males acquire at mating time.
Re humans and salt, the only aggression I can think of is the scholarly squabble over the Dead Sea Scrolls!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 610
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
Good point Robert, as I have only ever eaten salmon and not studied them I can’t really answer it, but it does seem logical to suppose that their transformation and behaviour is prompted by the change from sea water to fresh.
As regards the Dead Sea Scrolls, that is not aggression, that is a full scale war. For one of my Egyptian studies I had to immerse myself in the modern religious politics of the translation of these vital documents, and I was quite honestly flabbergasted by the entrenched attitude of the Vatican and their Jesuit priests - then responsible for translating many of the documents - in ensuring that only ‘comfortable’ sections reached the public eye. I think times have moved on since then… at least I hope so, for many of the documents make fascinating reading.
I’m not so sure that I can along with some of the thoughts on this thread that masturbation is - or was in the LVP at least considered as - a useful marker for some kind of psychological disturbance within an individual.
I don’t believe such behaviour can - or could - be applied as an indicator of state of mind, for it has far too many behavioural measures that do really negate its use as a tool in such circumstances. For instance in human terms, the ancient Egyptian kings were often depicted indulging in such practise and it was seen as a demonstration as the king’s natural power. In Heb Sed ceremonies - the renewal of the king’s authority as a god to rule - the king was full expected to publicly spread his seed over the ground to ensure the burgeoning fertility of the land.
In the animal kingdom, masturbation is so widespread as to be almost not worth the mention, and for instance in baboons and other primates it is no indicator of an individual’s state or position in the hierarchy of the troop, but merely an act of self-indulgent pleasure.
I am aware that certain human individuals will develop obsessive tendencies of this nature but do feel that there are more core issues at stake here than the obvious actions of the individual practising such things. We seek the cause and not the effect.
Similarly regarding the comments on the brain scanning of violent criminals, I am not inclined to see this as a useful tool or indicator until such brain scans are also made of pure genie in our society - such as artists, writers and composers - and then comparisons made between them and the violent criminals. I have the sneaking suspicion that the brain scans from the two groups might be very similar.
|
Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 6:47 am: | |
Erin,
Thanks for your exellent discription of OCDP, the web site that i was reading had it as COD, but thats by the by.
I think your'e right in speculating that the vast majority of people suffering from this disorder wouldn't manifest it violently, it's a fairly common disorder apparently.
But what if a violent physcopath fell foul of this disorder(as well as his desire to kill), then maybe he would resort to obsessional behavior at the scene of the crime.
To go to the trouble of arranging Annie Chapmans belongings while in such a delicate situation,(he must have heard people moving around as they got up for work),strikes me as unusual. It's true that we can't say whether he positioned the legs of Kelly and Eddowes, but they are in the same position. Kelly's hand does seem to be positioned inside her body though, obsessional behavior, or a private little joke known only to the killer? I don't know. You can go into fine detail in this case, but if you take a more simplistic view, what hits me in the face more than anything else is why a young man who shows such violent anger should stop killing after a spree of just 6 months, I thought that just maybe he'd met the requirments of his obsession.
Cludgy |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:31 am: | |
Hi Natalie
You can't hit a five at Cricket (not normally, anyway) - it goes from a four to a six. But both those numbers could be accomodated (leave out Stride or add Tabram)
Regards
Pete |
|
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