|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |       |
Hi Monty
Well, 40 days...I'm not too sure that the reason he went so long without killing was because it was too difficult for him. I can't help wondering whether he was either physically ill or locked up during October. Very frustrating for him.
Then maybe the Kelly murder was enough to push him over.
Of course, if he was an organized killer, he may never have become bug-eyed at all - even while mutilating Kelly.
Whenever I see that JTR film with John Le Mesurier, I think of Sgt Wilson from "Dad's Army"......"Would you mind awfully if I disembowelled you?"
Very polite and suave.
Robert |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 129
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:14 pm: | |
Would it be possible for Cohen to have rapidly declined into such a state ?
I mean, how long does it take? We are all different.
Yes, it is possible. Different people experience the disease in different ways, although of course there are commonalities in their experiences. For example, highly intelligent people with adequate support systems can often keep the disease at bay longer than others (look at John Nash).
I posted the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia around here somewhere. It should address this issue and others.
(Message edited by Rapunzel676 on December 12, 2003) |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 269
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:15 pm: | |
I tend to have a more practical objection to Cohen. His identity is based on Anderson's book and Swanson's handwritten scribble. Anderson's book contains the following footnote:
I am here assuming that the murder of Alice M'Kenzie on the 17th of July, 1889, was by another hand. I was absent from London when it occurred, but the Chief Commissioner investigated the case on the spot and decided that it was an ordinary murder, and not the work of a sexual maniac.
As Cohen was consigned to the lunatic asylum in December 1888, surely if this were the man that Anderson was referring to then he would know for sure that the McKenzie murder could not possibly be by the same hand, and thus would have no need to speculate. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 509
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:18 pm: | |
Robert, Natalie
Cant see Jack as organised...but do see him a lucid.
Robert,
Yeah, and I can picture 'Main-waring' hovering behind him saying 'Wilson, bark it out man !' with Jones hopping around 'try the bayonet sar..they dont like it up 'em..it the cold steel you know'...I think we have the perfect Martha scenario !!
Thanks Guys.
Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
Erin, Nietzsche disintegrated pretty suddenly. He was writing books throughout 1888, then had a terrible collapse the following January. Of course, he probably had tertiary syphilis - Cohen and Cutbush would have been too young for that.
Monty, two man theory :
WILSON : There's a likely victim.
GODFREY : Do you think I might be excused?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:46 pm: | |
Yes Robert I can just picture Le Mesurier saying that too! -and the Wilson and Godfrey bit-best Natalie. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 768
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 7:56 pm: | |
Wow, you guys work really fast sometimes; I can hardly keep up here.
Hi Natalie,
Thanks for the nice words. I think you should have some credit also for raising some fresh and intelligent points on the matter -- that is always enjoyable when the boards are getting too repetitious, at least for some of us who have hung around here a while.
Now, off to the points of interest:
About the prostitutes: when you say "The prostitutes would not have gone with someone who looked threatening to the extent of being a mad lunatic", you interpret the Ripper as a raving lunatic. I am not so sure that is what he was and how he acted. I know a couple of persons suffering from schizofrenia -- and know two people who work in mental homes -- and these people can actually act quite calm and normal at times, even when they slip on their medication. The Ripper didn't really have to do or say anything, just prove to them that he could pay. Apart from that, it was the prostitutes that did the interacting, and sometimes even took the initiative. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that the Ripper would have been a person that looked threatening -- that is a misconception I feel is based on the "raving lunatic" character. But I think the Ripper don't necessarily gave such an appearance (at least not before the time of the Kelly murder), but maybe only acted a bit introvert and quiet. His violence I believe could have been triggered at certain situations, but it didn't necessarily have to be an apparent feature in his character. Besides, I don't think it is possible to get it both ways, on one hand a lunatic with some more or less schizoid disorder, and on the other hand a manipulative genius who can manage to totally lure quite strong and experienced women of a prostitute profession. It doesen't add up, even if we consider that he had his intelligent moments. I believe the Ripper could have been a mix with mentally stable and unstable periods, but not with a personality built on such strong contradictions.
"Yes I agree the David Cohen of Colney Hatch-he is too far gone.But his illness may only have reached "burn out" when he set about MJK."
Yes, that I think is possible, and really -- as I pointed out in my last post -- the only reasonable explanation I personally can see to that problem so far.
I don't think it is impossible for such an illness to develop rapidly under such stress and conditions as the performing of the murders. IF the Ripper really was mentally ill and disorganized, I believe he himself worsened his own condition to a large extent.
I think Martin Fido was correct in his conclusion, that Cohen and Kosminski wasn't one and the same. According to the hospital records, Kosminski isn't anything like the person described in the Macnaughten memoranda or by Anderson and Swanson. The discrepancies in personality I think are too great. We can't be sure of course, that Macnaughten, Anderson or Swanson really knew what they were writing about (this was done quite a number of years after the murders), but I share Fido's views on this matter. However, if that person really was Cohen or someone else, I think is a remaining problem to solve. At least, I find it hard to believe that all three of them could have such bad memory and got it all so totally wrong, if it really was Kosminski they referred to.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 133
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 9:57 pm: | |
Robert, yes, that's the thing about mental illness. Its onset can be gradual or abrupt. As much as we know about it now, there's still so much left unknown and uncertain. Its sometimes inexplicable nature is, I believe, part of what makes it so pernicious and so frustrating, for sufferers and sane alike. Although my aunt was always a little "odd," her descent into full-blown psychosis was both abrupt and unexpected. As someone with a family history of mental diseases it's doubly frightening to know that the same thing could happen to me, and there's very little I can do about it, whether I recognize the onset of illness or if it comes upon me suddenly and without warning.
Actually I'm not so sure someone in his or her twenties could not have tertiary syphilis. As you all probably know, the disease is transmissible from mother to fetus, and twenty-odd years of it can be pretty debilitating, particularly if it goes untreated. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 270
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 3:01 am: | |
This is the same way it happened with my brother (for those who missed this my eldest brother is a Schizophrenic, but no family history of it as he is adopted).
We always knew as kids that Ian was a little bit different but not different in that way. (He was - not to put too fine a point on it, and the word was never openly mentioned - very obviously gay). We had absolutely no idea that there was any actual illness until he went missing for a weekend while working in a hostel in London and ended up wandering into St Pancras Hospital after three days with no idea of who or where he was. 25 years later he still has no idea what he was doing for that weekend. Prior to that, from his character, nobody would ever have suspected a mental illness, after that nobody would ever have had any doubt. |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 237
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
"According to the hospital records, Kosminski isn't anything like the person described in the Macnaughten memoranda or by Anderson and Swanson. The discrepancies in personality I think are too great."
Glenn, good afternoon. I'm afraid that I don't agree with this at all. Don't I see a wee bit of stretching of the historical record to fit the profile? Macnaghten claimed that the source of the suspect's insanity was indulgence in 'solitary vices', which also seems to be what Anderson is alluding to with the phrase 'unmentionable vices'--which is, by the way, Anderson's sole statement that even remotely touches on the suspect's personality. In fact, the asylum records indicate that Kosminski praticed 'self-abuse.' (Cohen's records say nothing of the kind, and, anyway, he was in restraints during much of his confinement) Further, Kosminski's relatives claimed that Aaron threatened a woman with a knife, which alone could explain what Macnaghten meant by homicidal tendencies.
I certainly can't consider it valid to associate Cohen's 'raving mania' with hatred of women, though one might well argue that threatening a woman with a knife (as Kosminski did) might indicate that personality trait.
Other than the alleged date of the suspect's confinement (as per Macnaghten) there is nothing in the historical record that indicates that Aaron Kosminski isn't the suspect. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 769
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 1:15 pm: | |
Good evening, RJ (at least, it's evening here),
Before I go on, I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about the Cohen/Kosminski suspect confusion -- it is not the right place for it.
"Other than the alleged date of the suspect's confinement (as per Macnaghten) there is nothing in the historical record that indicates that Aaron Kosminski isn't the suspect."
Well, I think that in itself is valid enough. Otherwise, your arguments I think are quite reasonable and I can't really disagree with them, or say that you are wrong. But I still claim that the person referred to by Macnaughten has not that much in common with what we know about the real Kosminski (if we look at how he is described in the hospital records, where he appears to be totally harmless), the attack on his sister aside. And combining this with the non-correct time for confinement, I think there are several problems to deal with for those who believe in Kosminski.
"Don't I see a wee bit of stretching of the historical record to fit the profile?"
Hehe, no, not at all, RJ. As far as I am concerned, neither Cohen or Kosminski does really fit a probable profile on Jack the Ripper to enough extent anyway -- maybe Cohen at certain points, but not convincing enough, if we must base it on his condition when the police found him. And how he was before that we can't really tell.
As I said, this is not the proper place for a Cohen discussion, his name just happened to come up during the discussion. And furthermore, let me just add, that I am not stressing for a certain suspect here -- I really have no personal opinion regarding whether Cohen was the Ripper or not, and I don't have a favourite suspect. And Kosminski COULD very well have been "Kosminski", but then again, I think not.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
Erin and Alan, Thankyou for being willing to share your close knowledge of this baffling illness with us.This confirms my own suspicions which are that neither Kosminski or Cohen needed
to have exhibited any particular manifestations
of their subsequent illnesses up until 1888 and we only know them from after this and in their particular cases after their illnesses had erupted
into full blown psychosis.
This could prove to be really important when discussing them wouldnt people think?
It could also help us to form a picture of others such as Druitt and Cutbush the latter often being dismissed owing to his downright eccentricity[post 1888]. |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 4:04 pm: | |
Glenn Many thanks for another very informative post.They are such a pleasure to read.
You say that I want it both ways vizthat Jack is on the one hand a raving lunatic and on the other a manipulative genius.Glenn that is not at all what I meant.I meant that however unwell Jack may have been he appears to me to have had the presence of mind to appear reasonably harmless to these women.I did add that he appears to have had a genius for evasion---I stand by that statement
on the grounds that he managed to evade all detection despite taking risks that leave you gobsmacked,that he left no clues[apart from a bit of apron and his "signatures"] in fact a more slippery character would be difficult to find.
I"m not saying that he was manipulative though
but he does seem to have known how to get what he wanted and I happen to think that involved calculation[or reasoning] and prediction which are both factors of intelligence.Best Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 69
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Glenn Many thanks for another very informative post.They are such a pleasure to read.
You say that I want it both ways vizthat Jack is on the one hand a raving lunatic and on the other a manipulative genius.Glenn that is not at all what I meant.I meant that however unwell Jack may have been he appears to me to have had the presence of mind to appear reasonably harmless to these women.I did add that he appears to have had a genius for evasion---I stand by that statement
on the grounds that he managed to evade all detection despite taking risks that leave you gobsmacked,that he left no clues[apart from a bit of apron and his "signatures"] in fact a more slippery character would be difficult to find.
I"m not saying that he was manipulative though
but he does seem to have known how to get what he wanted and I happen to think that involved calculation[or reasoning] and prediction which are both factors of intelligence.Best Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Erin and Alan
Thanks for those personal accounts.
PS Erin - DON'T WORRY!
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 70
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
Glenn cant believe this happened![double posting]I had just finished and was about to press final "post message" when this happened instead!
Anyway to yourself and RJ-Dont you think that Kosminski may have come across very differently before his illness took a complete hold ?In other words might not the later Kosminski have been rendered harmless through "burn out"? Might his mother who lived two minutes from Goulston Street
have protected him from the police coming after him? Do we know we can rely on what his family had to say about him who must have been distressed by his illness and not wanted anything dreadful to happen to him such as being executed or imprisoned?Natalie |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 136
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 4:40 pm: | |
Natalie, I think that scenario is eminently plausible. If you were Mrs. Kosminski, what would you do, under such circumstances? Different people react differently in stressful situations such as these. For some, protection of the family is the highest priority, no matter what their loved one may have done.
Robert: Thanks. 
(Message edited by Rapunzel676 on December 13, 2003) |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 72
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 5:06 pm: | |
Hi Erin,yes indeed and these people probably felt vulnerable anyway if there was a lot of racism about as there appears to have been since this was the excuse for getting rid of one of the only other clues we may have had-the Goulston Street Graffito.Best Natalie. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 5:40 pm: | |
Hi all
Re Aaron, maybe this was standard procedure, but would the fact that he was taken away with his hands tied behind his back (if this is indeed Aaron) suggest that he was capable in 1888 of a little bit more than the mild querulousness he later exhibited at the asylum (and then only when asked to do work)?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 6:05 pm: | |
A good point Robert.Maybe its possible to find out
whether it was standard procedure or only happened when the person was of some danger.I"ll look it up tomorrow.Natalie. |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 137
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 1:42 am: | |
An excellent point indeed, Robert. Perhaps it was to prevent him from engaging in any of his "solitary vices" while in police custody. 
All joking aside, I've always found that point curious. Why not "cuffed behind his back," rather than "tied"? Perhaps cuffs were only used for suspects in criminal cases, not for mental patients. I'm not certain what other forms of restraint would have been available to authorities at the time, aside from the trusty straitjacket. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 770
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
Hi Robert,
"Re Aaron, maybe this was standard procedure, but would the fact that he was taken away with his hands tied behind his back (if this is indeed Aaron) suggest that he was capable in 1888 of a little bit more than the mild querulousness he later exhibited at the asylum (and then only when asked to do work)?"
A very good point indeed (as always, Robert). That possibility can't be disregarded. And as Erin says, apart from a straitjacket (that was obviously used on "David Cohen" in the asylum), I am not aware of any other forms of restraint either (maybe some here can enlighten us on the matter?).
The problem is, how can we be sure that it was Kosminski that was transported with his hands tied behind his back? And if it was, was it result of him attacking (or threatening?) his sister with a knife, as Mr Palmer rightly suggest? When did that event really occur?
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 771
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 9:20 am: | |
Hi again Natalie,
Yes, I see what you mean regarding his behaviour with the prostitutes. But my point was, that I don't think he needed that much presence of mind. He could very well have been introvert, quiet and confused -- but appeared harmless at that stage. The prostitutes wouldn't really mind, I believe, such a client, in contrast to the usual more or less half-drunken riff-raff they had to put up with daily in their work.
And since I am quite convinced they did all the inter-acting and just wanted to be sure they would get paid for it, I really don't see his illness as a problem in this context -- and not at all a sign of intelligence or social competence. I can agree, though, that his elusiveness COULD indicate some sort of brain storming on such particular situations (that I can't rule out), but I think a good deal of it was helped by a vast knowledge of his environment and a very strong instinct of self-preservation.
Nice talking to you again. Sorry about my delayed answers, but I am a bit tied up with work at the moment.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
Hi Glenn
I used to wonder whether Aaron was admitted because he'd threatened his sister. But I doubt if he'd have been listed as harmless at the time of his admission, if the very reason for his admission had been his threatening the life of his sister. Maybe he threatened her some time before?
Of course, it's possible that he was indeed a harmless man and that his family nevertheless, for whatever reason, just couldn't cope with him. If he did put up a struggle when he was taken away, that might have been natural, if from his point of view he was being kidnapped.
On the other hand, what does his record of non-violence at the asylum really prove as far as the question of his being or not being JTR is concerned? How many women would he have seen in the male wing at Colney Hatch?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Hi all,I havent been able to discover why anyone would have "tied his hands behind his back" but if the powers that be were very obsessed by people who indulged in "solitary vices" maybe it eased everyones mind to do this in such cases as
Kosminski.I must say its worrying in terms of working out whether he may have been JtR or not to only have this "vice" handed down as "evidence"
that he was the ripper.After all not to labour the point too much we know nothing else really apart from the alleged attack on his sister.
Mind its one better than Druitt about whom we have no evidence at all!It makes you wonder
whether they deliberately chose Kosminski and Druitt as their "prime suspects" because one was dead and couldnt answer back and the other was unlikely to ever recover sufficiently to answer back.Meanwhile they could pretend they had known all along and look as though they had been quietly competent throughout when in fact none of them really had any idea whatsoever.Astonishing stuff.
Back though to our obsessive compulsive Kosminski.
One presumes he did leave off his "solitary vice" from time to time [to eat and drink] but what else did he do in the two years from 1888-1890?
Because one thing pretty unlikely;if he really was JtR he wouldnt have just stopped ripping-or could he have?Best Natalie |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
