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Message |
    
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:32 pm: | 
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Over drinks the other night, a friend and I were discussing the topic of serial killers. Somehow, the the topic of intelligence came up, as it related to the topic. She stated she had always assumed that those who commit serial killings were uneducated and psychopathic. I cited several examples to show her that, indeed, the opposite was true. Bundy, a lawyer, was clearly educated, and from all observations, "sociopathic". Not "psychopathic". Zodiac, was educated in mathmatics, geography, and military code. Again, from all observations, "sociopathic".
My question being, has anyone else encountered misconceptions about the type of people who commit these crimes? |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 407
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 6:58 pm: |
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Hi Dustin
Bundy was not a lawyer but he was in law school for a while. He must have performed very well in conducting his own defense, as the judge told him under different circumstances he would have been pleased to have Bundy before him as a member of the bar.
As for your question about misconceptions about people who commit these crimes, you might want to check out some of the threads wherein people are giving their views on profiling these killers. The current debate seems to be revolving around the role of the sexual component insofar as serial killers are concerned.Then there is the sticky question of sanity.
All The Best
Gary |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 697
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:55 pm: |
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Hi Dustin,
I am not so sure that one can regard serial killers in general as well educated, but many seem to be in possession of some sort of intelligence above average and belonging to the "sociopath" category -- Bundy and the Zodiac are good examples of that (but there are loads of others) -- rather than the opposite (the psychotic, mentally ill perpetrator). I think that probably is the general conception, although exceptions naturally occur.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 381
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 11:32 am: |
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Gary,
ooooh sanity...dont get me started again !!!
Monty
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Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:04 am: |
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Dustin,
The strange thing here is that when I think of serial killers I always think of them as well educated. I am aware that this is not always the case but I was surprised to here your friends thinking of them as uneducated and psychopathic. |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:21 am: |
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Hi Glenn! Hi Gary!
Thank you both for your responses.
In my observations, there seems at times, to be a duality with each individual person. Crafty in some aspects, lacking in others. At least in regards to their criminal element. As you point out Glenn, it would be improper to lump serial killers together in general, as they, their motives, and means of execution are very diverse. If they could so easily be labeled and understood, then could one not reason, they could be caught with just as much ease as a result? I will most definitely be taking your advice, Gary, and paying cose atttention on the threads regarding 'profiling'!
All the best to you both,
Dustin |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 11:08 pm: |
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Sarah,
I am of the same school of thought as you. I guess my friend was under the assumption that to be 'criminal', one must also be 'uneducated'. That the two were mutually exclusive. Which is a link I would never have jumped to myself. |
Eric Skinner
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 6:48 pm: |
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If I can offer my two cents, the aspect that I see serial killers sharing the most is not necessarily intelligence, but cleverness. By this I mean their ability to adopt a persona to cover their sociopathic nature and fit in with society. They learn early on that something is missing in them and find ways to cover it up. Bundy and John Gacy are great examples of this. Hervey Cleckley talked about this in his great book "The Mask of Sanity." It's definitely worth reading.
As far as the issue of sanity and crime is concerned, I can only offer my opinion as a former counselor. A person can know right from wrong, be very delusional, and be capable of planning and executing a crime. The problem is the McNaughten Rule, which says that all they have to prove in court is whether the person knew right from wrong when they committed the crime. Knowing right from wrong has nothing to do with sanity. I think the Ripper could have had a delusional hatred of women and/or prostitutes and been able to carry out the crimes. |
Dan L. Hollifield
Sergeant
Username: Vila
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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I think one misconception is to mistake intelligence for education. Many highly intelligent people miss out on educational oppertunities through no fault of their own.
My assumption is, of course, the the percentage of uneducated serial killers to educated ones is roughly equal to the percentage of uneducated people in general to educated ones. IE: that lack of education is not an important criteria for a suspect serial killer.
Of course, this might just be my own predjudices coming to the fore.
Vila
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Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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I haven't studied educational back ground on serial killers but the flip side of Bundy and the like as educated are killers like Edward Gein and Charles Manson I suspect Vila that you are right. Back to the books on this one for me. Kindest regards, Neil |
john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:12 am: |
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does one have to be psychopathic, sociopathic, uneducated and a sexual deviant to be a serial killer?
Is it possible that to kill one person (the one they are after) they kill others to cover the act so as not to become a suspect. Does this make them mad or very cunning and will stop at nothing to cover there tracks.
john |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
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John,
Well Id have thought they, being serial killers, have some sort of social/moral deviancey.
No?
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
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monty,
The question I'm trying to ask is, if I wanted to kill someone, for example my wife and not be considered as a suspect.If I then proceed to kill two women in a certain fashion, then kill my wife, carry on and kill another two women in the same fashion would this make me a mad serial killer or just cunning and devious.
John |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4108
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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John,
I would say that all serial killers are cunning and devious to some degree, regardless if they are charismatic psychopaths or insane psychotics. They probably wouldn't be able to continue to lure a large number of victims and stay out of the net of the police for a longer period of time otherwise.
I know it doesn't answer your question, probably, but just a point to consider regarding the 'cunning' bit.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:38 pm: |
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Glenn,
I agree with what you say that serial killers are cunning, devious because if they wasn't they would soon be caught.
The question I posed will have to stay unanswered for the moment.Perhaps a little bit more thought on my part is required.
John
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 431
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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To do that, you would have to be a sociopath.
Stan |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4110
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Stan and John,
Being able to murder your wife and then a couple of other women in order to create a false serial killer link, -- yes -- I would definitely say that such a person would possess rather severe psychopathic/sociopathic personality traits. Not to mention some daring.
If the person in question would be 'mad' or not, is a matter of terminology, but probably not in the legal definition, since it shows quite a lot of amount of deliberate planning, perpetrating alot of murders in order to cover up one crime.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 04, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:43 pm: |
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Stan and Glenn,
Thanks for your replies it answers a few questions I have about mental states but not all. I can see that it's not as clear cut as I thought.
John |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 805
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 2:45 pm: |
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John, I hope you have been persuaded not to kill your wife! |
john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 2:53 pm: |
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Diane, I did ask her if she minded but she did so I didn't, She who must be obeyed is still with us.
John |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 806
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
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John, being a wife myself I am probably biased, but who is worse, "she who must be obeyed" or "he who contemplates spousicide"? |
john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 4:21 am: |
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Diane, being a loving husband in a happy marriage (so i've been informed ) the thought of me committing spousicide never, ever entered my head.
honest judge the knife slipped as i was cutting the bread....
John
ps my wife has just read your post and she is nodding her head in agreement with you. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 470
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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For me, the BTK case has oopened up new ways of thinking about serial killers.
I think we've been putting things like motive, MO, personality type etc in neat little boxes, probably lulled by the FBI and other
profilers into thinking that we know way more about the human mind and heart than we actually do.
Time to go back to the drawing board.
Mags
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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I think 'animal cunning' is just about the only thing that all serial killers have in common, as far as education goes you have,at one end of the scale Henry Lee Lucas, and at the other,Ted Bundy.
And how would you define Charles Mansons intelligence?
I'm not a great fan of 'insanity' in a lot of these subjects,men like Sutcliffe,Kurten,Dahmer & Neilson were all capable of stopping during a killing,some even letting the victim go so I tend to take the view of mania's & maniacs with a pinch of salt where serial murderers are concerned.
Spree killers are manics,I do not think serial killers are.
The question I'm trying to ask is, if I wanted to kill someone, for example my wife and not be considered as a suspect.If I then proceed to kill two women in a certain fashion, then kill my wife, carry on and kill another two women in the same fashion would this make me a mad serial killer or just cunning and devious.
This is,basically,what the Manson family tried to do.Bobby Beausoleil had been arrested for the murder of Gary Hinman and during the crime someone wrote something on the wall in Hinmans blood.So the family did the same during the Tate & LaBianca killings.Mad, or just plain bad?
Insanity & the law is a very very complicated subject.Many serial killers fail with insanity pleas because, while they commit insane crimes, it is very difficult to accept they are actually mad because they understand AT THE TIME OF COMMITING THE CRIME that what they are doing is wrong.
If someone were to commit the crime you suggest I doubt there is a court in the world that would accept the killer were insane. |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Serial killers are essentially repeated lust murderers who kill people they find to some degree attractive. There are many, many lust murderers who have been caught after just one murder and the fact that people believe serial killers are intelligent is because they weren't cuaght that first time.
It's not that people with the capacity to become serial killers are by default intelligent in that fictionalized Hannibal Lecter way, but that to get to the point of having killed a number of people you must be intelligent not to leave too many clues. Many stupid murderers would have become serial killers if they hadn't been stupid enough to have gotten caught. And there have been some stupid serial killers who were just damned lucky.
The idea that it is a misconception to think that serial killers are uneducated and psychopathic is just wrong. Serial killers come in all shapes and sizes, also there is some confusion over the word psychopath.
Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Peter Suttcliffe and Jack the Ripper were all psychopaths. Being a psychopath is different to being a pshychotic. David Berkowitz was a psychotic, beleiving a dog is talking to you is not a hallmark of sanity. Psychopaths on the other hand know the difference between right and wrong, they have a grasp on reality, they are sane.
A psychopath is someone who is completely devoid of emotional or moral will. They care only about themselves and care nothing about other people's lives. They are one hundred percent apathetic towards the entire world, what the Victorians called "Morally Insane". So most serial killers are psychopaths, you would have to be to care so little about human life that you'd put an end to it for your own enjoyment.
Wintergreen |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 6:50 pm: |
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Di, John -
The word(s) you're looking for are "uxoricide" (murder of wife by husband) and "mariticide" (murder of husband by wife).
Never thought I'd be 10 minutes from New Year giving a pedantic lecture on obscure legal terms to an audience of ripperologists ;o)
Happy New Year all! |
