|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 356
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 12:41 pm: |       |
Hi, all--
This question has been brought up in an online British Teachers Discussion forum in which the initial poster disparaged the idea but others have said it is a good idea, and in fact it is being done. Go to
The merits of studying Jack the Ripper in the classroom.
Here's your opportunity to join in the debate.
My own feeling is, we teach about wars in schools, why not teach about the Whitechapel murders? After all, the murders touch on so many aspects of Victorian society, crime, the state of police methods of the day, the decisions made by the police (whether to use bloodhounds, to offer a reward for information leading to capture of the killer, and whether Warren was correct to erase the graffito, etc.), and the usefulness of eyewitness testimony.
All the best
Chris |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 307
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 1:00 pm: | |
Hi chris,
Actually a good idea, it is after all history albeit criminal history, but any subject that encourages debate, and this one certainly does, is beneficial to young people, it encourages research, and imagination.
On a personal level. I gave a 15 minute talk on this very subject at the age of twelve, which I believe horrified my history teacher.
Richard. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 2:49 pm: | |
i think you'll find theres no room to teach anything interesting in schs, history is it roman or greek is it ancient civilisation like the egyptians!!!!!!!!!!!!
is it is it!!!!!!
 |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 424
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:09 pm: | |
No. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 980
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:48 pm: | |
Hi Chris
As history, I think it's great. It would have the same merits as reading a good biography about, say, Gladstone - an interesting focus, prompting further exploration of other topics needed for a better understanding of the focus.
In the case of JTR we have social, economic and political history, even the history of medicine. As long as the course didn't narrow down to just "Who was JTR?" I don't see any problem history-wise.
I do feel a bit dubious however about the idea of 15-16-year-olds studying pictures of fiendish mutilations.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 753
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 6:29 pm: | |
G'day,
Since I've been studying the Ripper case, I have learnt all about the history of the police force, detection, nineteenth century London, how to be an author, how to reasearch, how other enthusiasts come to their own conclusions, a bit about the development of medical science, how to debate with other opinions, and probably much more. And I don't consider myself psychologically damaged by studying pictures of fiendish mutilations!
I think it would be an ideal subject to touch on at school!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 983
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 7:33 pm: | |
Yes, Leanne, but you're not a 16-year-old.
By the way, I wasn't only thinking of the effects on the girls, but the boys too. There's always the odd one.
But I do agree there's nothing wrong with it as history.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 458
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 8:16 pm: | |
Hi Leanne, Robert
I agree with you both. Few history subjects reveal so may different dimensions as Jack the Ripper (and there are a great deal of second-hand knowledge to gain, that doesen't have to do with the crimes themselves) by studying the case, so I think it would be a perfect opportunity to display all the different angles of history, especially to those who feel that history is a dull and boring subject.
I see no reason, however, that the teaching of it necessarily should include showing the children the post-mortem and crime pictures -- that I think would be a bit over the top for some (although I believe they're seeing quite as sinister things daily on television and video, but nevertheless...).
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 2:54 am: | |
G'day,
That's right Glenn, 15 and 16 year olds see some shocking stuff on television and video, and I don't think the mortuary photos should be totally censored, just not dwelled upon. Alot of stuff could be learned by concentrating on other aspects.
LEANNE |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 4:37 am: | |
The ripper and other unsolved historical mysteries could also be useful to Religious Studies. Here in the UK, AS and A2 level RS is the name they give to Philosophy and Ethics. My daughter is hoping to take this course herself.
I think it would be very useful in teaching students how to think their arguments through with the utmost care; have few opinions but a bucketload of questions; reach no conclusions (otherwise further discussion is pointless); treat with courtesy and respect those who disagree with your reasoning, but get your own points over even more clearly and concisely; and above all to be prepared to adapt to every new idea or piece of information.
After all, when you are dealing with a mystery that the top experts believe is highly likely to remain unsolved, it can be a religion for some, where faith in a certain suspect, or certain conclusion, can neither be proved nor disproved.
An unsolved mystery can be a wonderful learning tool and a gift for those who are open-minded enough to use it well, appreciate it and learn from it.
Love,
Caz |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 6:06 am: | |
The educational reformer Dorothy Heathcote theorises that the best way to educate a child is to place your subject in the context of an exercise in which they can absorb their energies. For instance if you want to teach basic economics you get the children to run an imaginary business. The theory is that instead of sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher drone on trying to pump facts into their heads, they are instead themselves going out and trying to discover the facts for themselves.
I would say that the same theory would apply to getting the children to investigate the Jack the Ripper case as a way of teaching them some of the history of Victorian London. As for the crime scene photos, admittedly the Mary Kelly ones in particular are fairly horrific, but most kids these days have seen worse at the cinema in close up living colour. |
Brad McGinnis
Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 8:07 am: | |
This is a very good question! I personally got interested in JTR as a 10 year old trying to figure out how some guy in England got away with killing a dozen women. Ok, thats been along time ago and the list has shortened. My interest hasnt.Ive gone from a top hatted caped freak to Monty, to Eddy, for about 3 minutes Maybrick to someone who shakes his head and says "I dont know."
I guess the real point here is this was all independent study. I did it on my own, but have been exposed to history, science, and folklore. Ive also met alot of great people along the way, especially here. Ive talked to so many folks like me in the chatroom yet we are all different. This really has nothing to do with photos. Before the high school prom each year kids are exposed to films that show graphic footage of traffic accidents. Real gory footage to prevent them from drinking and driving. Any kid in school also is exposed to the horrors of the WWII concentration camps and other war horror photos. The real world aint pretty. I think most kids know that. The JTRs and Ted Bundys are out there. Not telling them would be a big mistake. This is a good subject for chat and Ill post it there too.
|
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
The difference is the victms were real people, not figments of the imagination and they are entitled to respect. |
Joe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 6:55 pm: | |
I think 15 or 16 year olds would be able to handle those pictures. |
Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 10:25 pm: | |
I seriously think after seeing that link that I want to go back to school in England! I have no idea what "form9" level might be, I'm guessing it's equivalent to American high school, (? somebody correct me if I'm wrong) but some of the subjects and topics discussed sound a lot better than my own academic days...
To the question, though, Jack is a starting point for so much social history from that time, with the added bonus that kids are fascinated by him. A discussion of Jack's predations could easily encompass topics such as poverty, sweated labor, juvinile paupers, the class system in Victorian England... etc. etc.
I'm all for education - ANY knowledge is GOOD knowledge! And it doesn't do a hill of beans to try to teach anybody anything if they're not interested in the subject. Imagine trying to be interested in the dosshouse society without knowing it was the breeding ground of Jack's victims.
Just my .02 cents worth, though!
 Halloween! The MOST wonderful time of the year! |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 459
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
Hi everybody,
Since I never can participate in the Tuesday night chat, due to the ridicolous time (I think it would be four or five in the morning here, if I'm not counting completely wrong), I have some additional thoughts to add considering the posts above.
Yes, it is possible that it's easy to over-react a bit regarding the photos in conncetion with this issue (it was merely the pictures of Eddowes and Kelly I had in mind); I believe I am influenced a bit here by my own emotions regarding the matter -- I saw them for the first time five years ago and although I've been dealing with crime much longer than that, I got a terrible chock and it took me quite some time to rearn to really look at them. But then I have always been regarded as a squeemish and sensitive bloke...
As I myself pointed out, the children of today do see much worse things in movies and computer games etc. (and I do agree that there is no advantages with keeping the horrors of the real world from them -- although I think such "knowledge" should be introduced to them in a reasonable age), but then on the other hand I think it may be a bit different when it is the real thing, not a part of a fictional context, and I also think the poster "Severn" may have a point to consider regarding respecting the victims as human beings, not items that should be displayed in all kinds of situations -- these were real people, not exhibition objects (which we sometimes seem to forget). However, I may be over-reacting here and I know nothing about kids whatsoever or how they think. Today's children seem to be tougher and more "experienced" in that respect than I was when I grew up -- the boundaries and limits of tolerance have indeed changed. I do think, however, that some parents would react to and protest against them, and I do see a future problem here if this detail isn't handled with care and common sense.
The main point, though, is that the subject itself opens up very exciting possibilities to study Victorian London, and its social context, from different angles, and could also show the pupils that history doesen't have to an antiquaric and dull subject "one has no practical use of", and that is a more important point than the photos dicussed here. Therefore I believe the history subject in general would benefit from it in the long run. How one chooses to approach the Jack the Ripper theme in this context, though, is something to be considered in each individual case.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 311
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 11:25 am: | |
I was 11 when I bought my first Jack book.....Mr Knights !!
My parents didnt know, sorta of smuggled it home and hid it a la certain 'exotic' magazines (Not that I ever treated it as such).
When they found out I had already added Odell/Wilson and Rumbelows works.
Their reaction? Concern. I was quizzed, not the Spanish version you understand, but I do remember the questioning. Main one being why ?
And thats it is it, why are we drawn ? Ive been asked that sooooo many times by my friends (Im sure most of us have).
Ive read many peoples answer to that question on the boards over the years. Ive seen many varid answers. But I can say, without shadow of contradiction, that so far I have never seen an answer which has disturbed me.
That said, many of you may have seen the Museum thread. I have mentioned on that thread my trip to the Holocaust exhibition at the Imperial War Museum. That did disturb and upset me. The images are horrific. It certainly gives one a good reason to state that such things must never happen again.
Its a fine line between educating and corrupting young minds. I believe that if this subject is to be included in my childs education then it should be from the social, political and historical aspect. I would prefer, as Glenn mentions above, that it is dealt with good care and common sense.
Monty |
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 1:04 pm: | |
Hi all,
as a teacher of 16-20 year old I thought I pop in here as well and add my opinion. And although opinions are usually complex, I try to make it short.
There is a big possibility that the average 16 year old today has seen cruel pics and even worse than Kelly's one.
Unfortunately I might add.
Sometimes in the news I might add.
Although the curriculum is quite tight, we do have some liberties, and can pick topics here and there. (My school is a technical college, technology aside there are e.g. English- and social science-, but no history-lessons I should clarify. So colleagues from a "normal" secondary school might see it different. I'm also not talking about Police-training, or special criminal history lessons).
The question is, whether JTR is really THAT important outside our world here on this boards.
I do mention the JTR case in class, but usually when I've finished the "official" programme and mostly to encourage the kids to read something in English.
There's so much the kids don't know that I'll always find more important stuff when it comes to fill whole lessons.
An example: A great percentage of their action movies deals with Viet Nam. But hardly anybody has an idea about the history of the war and how it came to it.
I'd consider that more important.
Comparing the JTR case to WW I or WW II or even the Holocaust or mentioning both in one sentence gives me the creeps somehow.
I saw the exhibition in London as well and I share Monty's feelings. But I've visited Auschwitz, Dachau etc. before so the shocking views weren't new to me.
Not only as a German, but as a teacher of any nationality those topics are uncomparable and top of the list to educate young kids, to let them know what happened and what should never happen again.
Every teacher can help to keep memory alive and to prevent things to happen again because of lack of knowledge and carelessness. Or simply to prevent wrong myths appearing or to set myths straight.
( How do my colleagues in USA treat the subject "native americans" btw.?)
Where does JTR come in that scale?
"He" may be important in context "Victorian England", and the fact that there were such slums in the heart of the most powerfull empire at the time.
We also can include "him" in discussing the social conditions (many of us would have had Marx's and Engel's ideas, had we experienced Whitechapel in the 1880s, I think - and I couldn't be further away from being a communist, believe me).
Whatever, JTR would be a side-note.
In a world, where people have long forgotten how e.g. Hitler's gain of power was possible, where human rights are cut - and I'm not talking about the usual third world countries, you know - is JTR really a subject?
Let's face it, the case is as interesting as it can get. Reading messages here on the boards is one of my favorite pastimes, I don't wanna miss a day.
But in school we should address the real problems.
But that doesn't exclude to mention JTR and this website or sleuthing as such as an interesting "hobby", of course.
only mho
best wishes
Christian
|
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 359
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 3:21 pm: | |
Hi, all:
I am pleased to hear from Brad McGinnis that this topic will be the subject for discussion in tonight's chat in the JtR chatroom.
Here are some additional thoughts about the topic contributed by someone who attended the Liverpool convention--
"I believe passionately that anything that gets people interested in history, gets them to read books instead of watching television, encourages them to question things instead of accepting the ready-made opinion churned out by journalists, and maybe even gets them to go into their local library and find some information we didn’t know, no matter how tiny, is something that should be warmly embraced. And it was Professor Rubinstein’s theme at the Liverpool Conference that academics are too often unimaginative and po-faced about history, their subject matter and teaching methods unappealing to their students as well as the man in the street, and their attitude very often exclusive and exclusionary. He pointed out, as I recall, that many Shakespeare sites on the Internet don’t even allow discussion of the authorship question, which is in fact something that fascinates a large number of people. Why is a possible tool to introduce people to and interest them in Shakespeare therefore closed off? The Ripper is the same. Here’s a great mystery with issues that go spiralling off into a huge number of different areas, that can be used to generate interest, yet people are arguing over its suitability. Odd."
This might give everyone some further food for thought for tonight's chat.
All the best
Chris |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 429
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
Chris
all well and good, but I have a passionate belief also, and that it is dangerously subversive to believe that any section of our population should be encouraged to view mass murder as the norm.
Diabolic acts cannot be confirmed by conformity.
To teach Jack is to encourage Jack.
Are you really trying to tell me that because your professorri Rubenstein can't teach Shakespeare with any sort of interest than he would rather choose to teach mass murder because that would grab the little varmit's interest?
Don't try and disguise Jack's crimes with social history, that is but parody...
Parody also is that every time I come to an essential truth concerning this issue I am too closed off.
I'm loading my gun.
Now that's odd. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
Hello AP:
Who is trying to pretend that serial murder is the norm? Of course, it's an aberration. But that doesn't mean that there aren't aspects of the Whitechapel murders that are worthy of scholarly study in our schools.
You further say--
Diabolic acts cannot be confirmed by conformity. To teach Jack is to encourage Jack.
But the study of "Jack" would also be study of the social conditions that possibly gave rise to Jack, and that certainly led to the social circumstances of the women who were murdered by Jack. I think such a focus for proper scholarly study is important. Evidently you don't, and that is where we differ.
AP, do you also think that the Casebook: Jack the Ripper website, as you put it, "encourages Jack"? Surely, the tasteful and scholarly way this website has been put together by Mr. Ryder is clear proof that there is a way to study Jack without glorifying Jack.
Best regards
Chris George |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 470
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Well said and I agree with you (although I can see AP:s point as well).
Have fun on the night chat, all.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 761
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 2:36 am: | |
G'day,
Well, I waited home but was denied access once again!
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 5:26 am: | |
Hi, Leanne
Sorry to hear that. Maybe we can see what we can do to facilitate your entry into the chat room.
Chris |
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
I am a teacher too.Hitler it might be rememberedhad great success in reducing the term Jew to an abstraction -implying that these people were not human and had to eradicated.I think the same attitude can creep into debates about these women if we dont take care. They were human beings who were entitled not to be murdered and mutilated by anyone.This has to be separated from the game of detection that we indulge in and children of say ten are capable of making that distinction as long as we their teachers are prepared to explain or present the information in a fair and balanced way. |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
