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John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:16 am: |       |
Hello All,
I notice the EMPIRE NEWS account of Nov17,1935 says JTR committed six murders and later states the Leman Street Police station incident occurred "a few days after the last murder"...
Was it Melvin Harris who did the thorough account of the doctor with the painted face? That doctor was found drowned.
I wonder if the EMPIRE NEWS was around in 1888
and if the reporter took some details from an earlier press clippings?
I notice McCormick was a great user of press clippings.I still suspect there is a germ of truth in several of his allegations.Take as an example his "I have it on reliable authority" that
Macnaghten had burnt his JTR documents.The good authority was probably the 1913 DAILY MAIL article which quoted Macnaghten himself on that very issue.
As Michael Caine memorably said:
"Summboddeee must know Summ-fing!!". |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 7:49 am: | |
Hi John
Glad the info fitted in with your research
All the best
Chris S |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 5:32 am: | |
Hello All,
John and Chris, I mislead you and everybody.
My indifferent photocopy of the WEST LONDON OBSERVER quoted above actually said: 'Miss B.Dutton of Cornwall Road, Westbourne Park".
Very sorry.Scrape a bit off the top and bottom of a "B" and it looks like "H"!
Not being familiar with Greater London's layout,
I wonder if it was significant Dr Dutton used to live at Westbourne Villas and his sister later lived (1935)at Westbourne Park?
Might that not indicate they grew up around there? The family home ? |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 5:53 am: | |
Hi John Ruffels
Many thanks for that clarification, it will make searching a lot easier.
With regard to Westbourne Park and Westbourne villas this area of London (W2) is basically behind Paddington station, and only a mile or so from Sheperds Bush. If you see my earlier post of Dr Dutton's entry in The Medical Whos Who 1914 it shows that he was born in Pimlico (SW1) which is behind Victoria Station.
Regards
John Savage |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
Hi, John Ruffels:
You had wondered if the EMPIRE NEWS was round in 1888. It appears from the catalogue at The British Library Newspaper Library in Colindale that this Manchester newspaper was published during the period from 1917 to 1960 when it merged with The News of the World, which on 21 May 1961 dropped "and Empire News" from its masthead.
Best regards
Chris George |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 8:31 am: | |
Thanks to Paul Begg for pointing out that other reports from 1888 identify the doctor connected with St George's Hospital, arrested on 11 November, as a man called Holt who lived in Willesden. (For example, see this report from the Manchester Guardian, 12 November 1888: http://casebook.org/press_reports/manchester_guardian/mg881112.html)
A little more on this William Holt is to be found in the "A-Z".
Nevertheless, it does seem clear that this is the incident referred to in the story published after Dutton's death in 1935. Common factors include the time - a few days after the last (Kelly) murder - the place - in or near the Whitechapel Road - the basic events - a man surrounded by a mob, protected by the police and taken to Leman St police station - and the fact that he was a doctor and (mentioned in other contemporary reports, though not the Times) indulging in "amateur detective work".
Why it should have been applied to Dutton is a mystery. Maybe the full text of the article would make it clearer.
Chris Phillips
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Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 8:48 am: | |
Hi, all:
While not totally discounting that Dr. Dutton knew something about the murders and that there may have been some credible information in his famous lost diaries, we have to why Dr. Dutton gets no mention whatsoever in Evans and Skinner's redoubtable Ultimate JtR if he had the role in the murder investigation that is claimed, i.e., in helping with autopsies and photographing Ripper letters and the Goulston Street graffito, as has been claimed by McCormick. While the biographic and newspaper citations verify he did in fact exist, his documented role in the murder investigation seems almost as elusive as Jack the Ripper himself. 
All the best
Chris |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 41
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 9:23 pm: | |
Hello Chrises - ( George, Scott and Phillips)- and John Savage,
Thank you all for your fine analyses and your savvy responses to my wonderings.
I particularly like Chris Phillips' observation about the parallels in the 1888 Dutton press report and Dr Holt.Well done to Paul Begg for his early labours.
It seems to me that what we are seeing is the melting of seemingly strong bits of evidence proffered by McCormick through his various
'stalking horses':be they himself in the DAILY CHRONICLE or DAILY EXPRESS; or through the mysterious but vastly interesting 'Chronicles of Crime';or his quotes from 'Miss Hermione Dudley'.
I do believe the 'Chronicles' and Miss Dudley existed:I'm just not sure which of their detail
is true.
Let's all keep hunting.
For instance.Surely, a young crime reporter in the 1930's with a plum scoop like Dr Dutton and his JTR theories could not wait until 1959 before seeing their first light of day? |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hi All
I have just received a copy of Dr. Dutton's Death Certificate, and can now state with some certainty that he had a sister.
The following extract from this certificate states:
7. SIGNATURE, DESCRIPTION AND RESIDENCE OF INFORMANT - B.A. Dutton, Sister, 57 Cornwall Road, Westbounre Park, W11.
So with this information it may be possible to find more info on his sister.
If anyone would like me post full details from this Death Certificate, will be glad to do so.
Regards,
John Savage |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 99
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 4:08 am: | |
Great stuff, John!
I am a firm believer that its all out there...
just waiting for enterprising people like you to
track it down and hog-tie it with a new thread every now and then.
Of course, as Chris Phillips has suggested, Miss Dutton's address is probably the guest house residence she chose to live in.
What would be good is for us to track back to the parents of Thomas and " B.A. Dutton", and thence, possibly forward down a parallel line to cousins, nephews etc who might still know of papers or family annecdotes.
Please do post the certificates full details, John.
One never knows..some Armchair Abberline might make more clues leap off the page. |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 6:00 am: | |
DEATH CERTIFICATE DETAILS
Cert. No. 236
Column 1. When and were died - Eighth November 1935, 290 Uxbridge Road
Column 2 Name and Surname - Thomas Dutton
Column 3 Sex - Male
Column 4 Age - 79 years
Column 5 Occupation - Doctor of Medicine
Column 6 Cause of death - Myocardial Degeneration due to Coronary Artery Disease. Certified by Edwin Smith Coroner of London
After Post Mortem without Inquest.
Column 7 Signature, description and residence of informant - B.A. Dutton, Sister, 57 Cornwall Road Westbourne Park W11.
Column 8 When registered - Twelfth November 1935
Column 9 Signature of registrar - H. Nicholls
These details are from a CERTIFIED true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register in the District above mentioned [Hammersmith, Sub District of North Hammersmith]
END OF EXTRACT
Regards,
John Savage
|
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 420
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
earlier in this thread I posted details of Dutton which I found in the 1881 census. I have recently found him in the 1891 census. He was a boarder at 13 Colville Gardens, Kensington. The boarding house was run by an Ellen Brown and there are 15 boarders listed and what a cosmpolitan lot they are! the list includes people from Peru, Paris, Monte Carlo and Italy.
Duttons's details are given as follows:
Name: Tho. Dutton
Boarder
Single
Aged 36
Under profession it says (I think!) Retired physician, though why he would have retired at that young age is not clear. Someone has written in beside it, "Surg", i.e. surgeon. If anyone can make a clearer reading of the word "retired" from the census entry below, I would be grateful.
Place of birth is given as Pimlico.
If anyone wants a list of his fellow boarders, let me know
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 623
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:07 pm: | |
Hi Chris
It looks like "retired". It couldn't be "retained physician", could it? I.e. doctor to the boarding house?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 421
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
Regarding the elusive Miss B A Dutton, if my supposition is correct, her birth initials were not B A but A B. It was not unknown then, as now, for an individual to use a middle birth name in preference to their girst given name. If my supposition is correct, the person we are looking for is, in fact, Ada Barbara Dutton who was born in 1867 in Kensington.
Let me explain:
As there was no suitable candidate for B A Dutton listed in euther 1881 or 1891 I worked on two suppositions
1) Considering Thomas was only 26 at the time of the 1881 census, it was a fair bet his parents were still living
2) Thomas is listed in both census returns as born in Pimlico, so presumably at least some of his siblings, if there were any, would be listed as born there as well
Also, as Thomas trained for the medical profession, it was a reasonable bet that we were looking for a family from the professional classes.
After some pretty complex queries of the 1881 census data, only one family came forward as likely candidates to be his parents and siblings:
Address:
130 High Street, London
Head:
George Dutton aged 59
Born Lymington, Hampshire
Bank Manager
Wife:
Barbara Dutton aged 50
Born Shields, Durham
Children:
Isabel aged 23, born Pimlico
Florence aged 21, born Pimlico
Georgina aged 19, born Kensington
Ada B. aged 14, born Kensington
Helena aged 12, born Kensington
Servants:
Mary Irish aged 27, parlourmaid
Martha Price aged 20, cook
George Whiting aged 36, bank messenger
The eldest child listed, Isabel, was born in 1858, i.e. 2 to 3 years before Thomas, so he would have been the eldest child and the only son.
By 1891, the family had moved to Sussex, to Ore, near Hastings.
Address:
Sherbourne House, Eaton (?) Road, Ore, Hastings, Sussex
Ada was still living with the family and her middle name is listed here as Barbara (not just an initial as in 1881)
Copy below:
I cannot say with certainty that this Dutton's sister but she is the best candidate I have found so far
Chris |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 5:07 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for posting the above information on Dr. Dutton's family.
I had found Isabel but was unable to find any of the others, and I am sure that we have the correct family as my 1914 entry in "The Medical Who's Who", lists Thomas Dutton's father as being
George and place of birth St. George Square Pimlico, 14th. April 1854. The same as Isabel.
Brilliant research Chris and I am most grateful
for the info.
Regards,
John Savage |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 6:54 am: | |
Top stuff, Chris.
Thanks you to John Savage for the Death Certificate details.
I agree, this appears to be the correct Dutton family.
A minor clue might be that the mother was born in Durham and Dr Thomas Dutton attended Durham University. |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 422
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 7:38 am: | |
I should have said straight away that this was a collaborative effort in that John (Savage) had already mailed me details about place of birth for Isabel so that fitted neatly into what I was doing and helped considerably.
I have found the bare details for two of them in the 1901 census. By that time Barbara (the mother) appears to have been widowed and was living in Paddington. Ada B. had moved to a place called kelvedon in Essex.
Again, I must stress that at this stage this is only the most likely candidate and the identification involves an amount of supposition
Glad the info was of interest
Chris |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
Chris S and John S
That's a very useful piece of detective work. It would be interesting to look for a death/will of Miss A.B./B.A. Dutton.
Kelvedon seems to ring a bell. I can't work out why, but I found a site with the Victorian census returns online:
http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/census.html
The 1891 returns include an Ada Dutton aged 26, but she is the daughter of a William Dutton. Could she be the one you've found in 1901? If so, A.B./B.A. may have stayed in London.
Chris Phillips
|
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
Hi Chris P
With the info that Chris Scott has kindly provided I shall be checking for death cert etc. for these ladies as soon as I have an hour or two to spare and go down to the library.
I will post here anything of interest.
Regards
John Savage |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 424
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
Chris P
The Ada Dutton I found details of in the 1901 census was the only one of correct age (34) who was born in London.
In the 1891 census for Kelvedon, the Ada Dutton you mentioned is listed as 26. There is a 36 year old AD, born in London living in Camberwell, who was a milliner. I think this may be the one you saw. But the Kelvedon does suggest there may have been alink between the two Dutton families
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 426
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 1:37 pm: | |
Looking back on this thread, the cutting posted by chris Philips back in April contained this passage:
Miss H. Dutton, of Cornwall Road, Westbourne Park, a sister of the doctor, called at the house as she had heard her brother was ill. Mr Willis told her he had not seen the old man for several days, and on going to his rooms found him dead.
There was speculation this may have been the origin of the Hermione Dudley story but this seems less likely in the light of two facts:
If the family whose details I posted above are Thomas' parents and siblings, then he had a younger sister called Helena
The address given for H.Dutton is the same as for B.A.Dutton on the death certificate.
This strongly suggests that Helena found Thomas' body and Ada registered the death and that the two sisters were living together
So the hunt for Miss Dudley goes on!
Chris |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 4:53 pm: | |
I'm afraid "Miss H. Dutton" was an error caused by John's not very legible copy of the article - see his post of May 13 when he said that the initial was B.
So I think there is only one sister, who appears to be Barbara/Ada.
Chris Phillips
|
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 431
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 7:47 pm: | |
Below is the 1901 census entry for Dutton.
My best guess at the address is 76 Clarendon Road, Kensington
Here is the header of the column for address giving the name of the road:
and here is the census entry for the household:
 |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 7:51 pm: | |
Hi Chris Phillips
Please do not jump to quickly to conclusions. Chris Scott has just found a whole family of Duttons and although there is an Ada/Barbara there is also a Helen, both of them seperated in age by only a couple of years.
Let us wait a little while and see what research can tell us. I think Chris Scott's post above suggesting that the two sisters may have lived together is an interesting thought and requires more research.
Regards
John Savage |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 5:03 am: | |
Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there anything to suggest a Helen(a) Dutton was involved in the 1930s apart from the misreading of the newspaper report?
I'm obviously not saying it's impossible that two of Dutton's sisters lived together, but if "Miss H. Dutton" was an error, I don't see that there's anything to suggest it.
Chris Phillips
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