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danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 4:00 pm: |       |
Some people say 5. Some people say more. I figured this would be a good discussion since I've been reading my book by Philip Sugden on the murders.
My big thing is. I don't think Tabram is one of the murders. Or actually, if Tabram is part of the murders, then I think that you have to consider annie Millwood and Emma Smith as possible victims as well. Why?
Well it's important to note that there was no mention that Tabram had her throat cut. Just that she had stab wounds to it. In all the other "Ripper" cases the women had their throats severed. If we are to believe that stabbing his victims was the way that the Ripper actually "got-off" on killing his victims then Emma Smith was stabbed alot.
Emma Smith though, was attacked for robbery purposes. So it's hard to believe that the same person commited that crime as the others.
But as far as Annie Millwood goes, I think it's all possible that it could have been the same person that attacked Tabram. Especially the fact that most of her stab wounds were inflicted in the legs area of the body. An area that the Ripper seemed facinated with.
I think the most important thing to consider is whether Tabram was part of the murders or not. And if we consider her part of the murders then we have to consider these other women for being maybe attacked by the Ripper. Or in the case of Emma, maybe there really were 3 people that committed the crime and Jack the Ripper really is more than 1 person.
For that, I propose an idea as to why everything happen like they were. If we consider the possibility that Jack the Ripper could have progressed to the point he was at with Mary Kelly. What do I mean?
It happens with serial killers sometimes. They start off not intending to kill anyone. They just get joy out of hurting them. *sort of like raping a person* Then after awhile that isn't enough for them. And then the serial killer starts to kill people to satisfy their craving. After awhile he gets tired of just killing them and has to mutilate there bodies. Which might explain why Mary Kelly was soo badly cut up. And then for whatever the murders end? hmmm, Maybe he died. maybe he's insane. Something had to happen to stop the killings like that. What was it? That we might never know. Tumblety seems like a good suspet for leaving the country and then murders happening in the US. But he was old during the murders. *Fifties I think* Could he have murdered them by himself? Maybe. But I think he would have had to have help to do it.
JtR....without a tophat. Makes sense........
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Daniel R
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 2:15 am: | |
Yes the increased aggression against victims is something i have heard (and thought) about before.
Is it possible that Kelly was a victim of Barnett, but not JtR?
That is, killed by Barnett, who was not responsible for the other murders. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 8:46 am: | |
Hi,
If Barnett collected press cuttings then Tabram, would have been the first, and several more up until at least feb 91.
Its no secret that I believe Barnett was The killer, the very fact that he started his collection after the Tabram murder , who else but the killer would have known that this event was the start of a series, and they ceased in April 91.
So the exact number will have to be debated.
Richard. |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 9:25 am: | |
Ah, Danefirmin.
Your poste appears to be written from the usual perspective that we 'know' what the motive was.
Try think of it from a completely impartial perspective.
How many different motives could you come up with that cannot be discounted by the known evidence?.
Motive #1.
Sexual gratification, the most common assumed motive and the one which tends allow for the progressive killer proposal. In this we can find arguments to include Wilson & Milwood through to Kelly.
Motive #2
Ritual, this implies deliberate intent, a purpose and is not as easily adaptable to the 'progressive killer' approach.
With this motive you would not include any victims prior to Nichols.
Motive #3
Revenge, this motive is intended to include such suggestions as 'Mad Doctor', 'Royal Conspiracy' & Joe Barnett, etc.
Here once again you tend to limit the list of victims, in this you may include Tabram but exclude Wilson & Millwood.
I do not intend to get into the minutae of each motive or even provide a complete list of potential motives, but only to suggest to you that when you make a list of victims you are very possibly following a subconscious preconception.
You have already selected the motive (that suits you) and thereby your list is not objective.
Do you get my drift?
best regards, Jon |
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 3:05 pm: | |
that could very well be true, but Kelly's murder was done by someone with alot of aggression towards her. Plus the body was mutilated. It seems too close to the other murders to not be done by the same guy. Certainly by the severity of the murder it makes you think that he knew Mary Kelly, whoever the murderer was. Almost like he had a grudge against her... |
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 1:40 pm: | |
Yes, I do understand what it is your saying. And you are right that I have preconcieved ideas. Like I've stated before I base most of my stuff off of facts mixed with logic. My original post was based off of the the actual murder facts. And then I stated my ideas or my logic from that. I simply was giving different viewpoints for people to look at. From the straight facts of how each person was killed, (going from whether their throat was cut or not) you could get as low as 4 or so murders. I was just trying to see what other people thought.
You are correct there could be many different motives. Though, Ritualist ideas, I don't think there's enough evidence to support. I tend to lean towards revenge or some sort of sex offender idea. All in all, because we don't have alot of facts left, we always have to draw some conclusions on the ones we do have. Although, unlike most evil people i try to answer all the facts in my theories. And not to contradict any. |
Pettifogger
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:00 pm: | |
I'll conjecture seven...
Nichols
Chapman
Stride
Eddowes
Kelly
McKenzie
Coles
Stride and Coles as more probable and the other FIVE as definitely the Ripper. |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 1:36 pm: | |
....and on a lighter note.
If it was going to cost me money, like a paycheck, I'd have to go with only three.
Nichols.
Chapman.
Eddowes.
If no money was involved and I was allowed to go on a gut feeling there would be four.
Nichols.
Chapman.
Eddowes.
Kelly.
If I was allowed to speculate, (and suffer the slander), it would be five.
Nichols.
Chapman.
Eddowes.
Kelly.
Millet.
And they may all have been garotted.
And unfortunately, that, is a potboiler.
Regards, Jon
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 4:54 am: | |
Well, I watched a drama/documentary on Jack Sheppard last night and a chance remark started me wondering. Due to Sheppard's notoriety as a housebreaker and thief who managed to escape from custody at least three times, including from Newgate while on death row, around 200,000 people gathered to see his hanging when the day finally dawned. He had become a folk hero. Apparently, in those days (circa 1724), public executions were also public holidays. I immediately thought of Emma Smith and Martha Tabram (killed on Bank Holidays), Mary Kelly (Lord Mayor's Day), and those in between - Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes - all killed at weekends, the next best thing to a public holiday when none are scheduled.
If most of them were partially throttled, had their throats cut or were garrotted (my Chambers describes garrotting as 'a Spanish mode of putting criminals to death'), and they were all left where they were attacked, very much on display for the public to see, I wondered whether there might be some pattern here, suggesting perhaps one of the gang who attacked Emma Smith broke away and began acting alone, seeing himself as Sheppard's avenger. Sheppard was caught and thrown into jail on one occasion when his prostitute girlfriend, Bess, was forced to betray him to the equally famous scoundrel and thief-taker, Jonathan Wild. Was Jack the Ripper trying to give every 'Bess' a taste of the medicine his hero, Jack Sheppard, had to swallow?
For one of Sheppard's great escapes from Newgate, Bess and another prostitute called Poll came to visit him, bringing him women's clothes to put on. Hidden from view by the two women talking to him, he filed through the bars, changed into the clothes and sauntered out of the prison with Bess, leaving Poll to follow later, walking out past an amazed turnkey, when Sheppard was already long gone.
So I also like the idea of saucy Jacky in drag, farfetched as it may seem.
Love,
Caz |
tired_cos_of_jack_the_ripper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
I believe 6, as im doing my GCSE project on it. the links are very strange if u look at the dates . i believe its tabram, nichols, chapman, eddowes, stride and kelly |
R.J. Palmer
Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 10:40 am: | |
Isn't it a stretch to say that Polly Nichols was killed 'on the week-end'? She died sometime in the night between Thursday & Friday; few of us that trudged off to work this morning would have considered the ugly span that passed a few hours earlier---struggling with the lack of desire to get out of bed to face the boss one more time---to be part of the week-end. Polly was, in fact, found by two laborers off to face another day in the rat race.
As the murders span Thr-Mon, this covers 4 1/2 days out of 7, so I'd actually plump for some out of regular employment; someone that could prowl the streets all night and still sleep until noon...
widdershins as always, RJP
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Caroline Anne Morris
Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 12:18 pm: | |
Very true, RJ, although many actually enjoy 'that Friday feeling' from the moment Thursday becomes Friday.
But you are right, and of course it is a stretch - indeed, the whole Sheppard thing is a stretch, like, I suppose, almost every theory out there. The only one that isn't a stretch is the one that says some Mr. Nobody we've never heard of murdered at least three women on random days for no obvious reason until something happened which made him stop.
But that would make Jack a very dull boy, wouldn't it, and this place an even duller one. 
Have a great weekend everyone.
Love,
Caz |
Priscilla M Steele
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 11:38 am: | |
I may be a complete dunse by asking this question, but did Jack ever have any type of sexual intercourse with any of his victims? I am new to the case, but very interested. |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
Prisilla
The Victorians, as I'm sure you know, were a little prudent about sex. During a post-mortem exam the presiding doctor would check to see if sexual intercourse had taken place. We have one reference to this and the terminology used for sex was 'connection'.
A statement to the effect that "no connection had taken place" was noted with one victim.
Generally, we are left with the impression that the sex act was not part of the 'attack' with any of the victims.
Regards, Jon
P.S.
Actually. dunse is spelled (not spelt) 'dunce'. :-)
Never mind, I often leave spelling mistakes in the postes, no-one really cares, and it might actually make someone smile.
|
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 8:20 pm: | |
Hi Caz
Some years ago I saw a movie about Jack Sheppard (Where's Jack?), the main role was played by Tommy Steele, suprising to me was the movie wasn't all that bad, I liked it.
The ending though was right out the 'conspiracy' buffs manual.
Yes he was hanged, but his body was cut down quick and spirited away through the crowd, in this case Jack Sheppard was revived & survived.
It wasn't until I obtained The Chronicles of Newgate, by Arthur Griffiths (courtesy of the esteemed Stewart Evans), that I realised the ending was not that far from the truth.
The crowd, we are told, grew perfectly frantic when they saw an undertaker, which they took to be a surgeon, approach the body. They assumed Sheppard was being cut down to be carted off to the dissecting room (as was the norm. with executed criminals in those days), and they went beserk, they demolished the hearse and attacked the poor undertaker who was lucky to escape with his life. They seized the body and passed it through & over the heads of the crowd, hand to hand, until it was bruised & dirty (bruised?, was he still alive?), the body was spirited away to Barley Mow in Long Acre where it lay some hours.
The crowd only then were informed, or discovered, that the fracas was for nowt, they had been the victims of a trick devised by the baliff in the pay of the surgeons and that the 'surgeon' who cut him down was actually an undertaker who intended to bury the body, not cut it up.
(I don't follow the 'trick' of a baliff, in the pay of the surgeons, employing an undertaker to pose as a surgeon who's real intent was to bury the corpse anyway. I think Griffiths text comes through a little muddled, or maybe its me)
The point is, there was indeed a fracass and the body was stolen away from the authorities amidst fury & chaos. The police were outfaced by the riot, the military were called in and several detachments of guards arrested the ringleaders. The body was returned to a friend of Sheppards for burial and the mob dispursed.
The friend saw to it that the body was intered correctly.
It transpired later that Sheppard had carried a pocket-knife on his person and had the skill to remove his own handcuffs, he had faith in resuscitation and that friends had agreed to cut him down quick and apply their 'art'.
So,....was it Jack or not?
Now I knew the reason for the movie ending the way it did. Just a bit of trivia, Thazall.
Caz, do you remember the Newgate Calendar tv show from the 60's?, some of the actors went on to play in The Liars & Mr Rose, among other stuff.
(maybee afore your time, eh?  )
regards, Jon
P.S.
Leanne will love this....
Jack Sheppard had a speach impedement. |
Saddam Hussein The Dictator
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 9:45 pm: | |
Jack Sheppard had a speech, not a speach impediment.
The Victorians were prudish about sex, not necessarily prudent.
Saddam
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
Oh Jon,
Not before my time however. I remember the young Judy Cornwall with then teenage relish (the present, older Judy Cornwall isn't bad either!).
Cheers, Mark off to the cold bath again |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Detective Sergeant
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 9:28 pm: | |
Priscilla,
There was no evidence of sexual activity with any of the victims, despite a number of them being found in sexually suggestive poses.
B |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Detective Sergeant
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 9:29 pm: | |
Saddam,
Didn't we kill you?
B |
Caroline Anne Morris
Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Hi Jon,
No, I'm afraid I don't remember the Newgate Calendar tv show, or The Liars & Mr Rose, which is odd considering the amount of tv I watched, and do remember from my teenage years in the 60s - certainly not before my time, but I'll take that as a compliment if I may. 
Nothing to do with Jack the Ripper, or Sheppard, who was also the inspiration for the Beggar's Opera and old Mac the Knife, but one of my favourite comedies from the 60s was 'Get Smart'. I wonder if he could tell us where the real Saddam is right now? Mind you, he was never one to rely on Intelligence.
Love,
Caz
|
danefirmin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
ah yes, after my long absense from the boards, I have returned. STILL as unwitting as always and yet stupid enough to make off the wall suggestions and theories.
Personally, the 80's were too long ago for me to remember. lol. I am but a boy at 17. Right now I'm actually reading about MacBeth in school, it's amazing what the power of suggestion can do.
The Library got upset with me keeping there books so long and wouldn't allow me to renew them. *I thought its a public library for a reason /=* So now i've started my quest again to find "The Complete History of Jack the Ripper". I read the first 90+ pages and already knew 4 times what I knew before reading the book. It really is amazing. So sadly now I've had a taste of it and want more.... Seems ironic in a teenage life to make a statement like that. Oh well...
If I were a betting man, i'd mostlikely be broke, but while I had money I'd say that 'ol Jacky killed atleast 3 mostlikely upto 7 or 8. That's just because I like widening my numbers out so they over all my bases. lol.
In my quest to figure out who Jack the Ripper was, which i've been neglecting lately due to personal reasons: WOMEN, I kindof have had a change of heart in my theory and now believe Tumblety did it. Maybe because I'm naive or I subbcome to influence.
On the upside I found out the word chilvery *what the knights way of acting is* came from an ancient Roman word meaning Romance. If nothing else, use that on your lady friends' guys.
I still need to do research and because of this, I suck. Until next time when I have yet another overly long, boring, non-factual rambling... |
Bruce Tonnermann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 2:50 am: | |
The answer to the question posed in this thread -
we shall never know. |
Corey Adams
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 8:18 am: | |
Hello, I just began researching the "Jack" murders but one thing popped out at me. Is it possible that Mary Kelly was killed by someone other than our Jack. The length of time between hers and the prior murder and the subtle differences brought me to this question. |
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:14 pm: | |
Corey,
Short answer....yes !
The fact that Mary was murdered indoors also makes it unique to the series...but it doesnt mean that she wasnt.
We could go on all day and night and beyond with this one and some have.
Its a hard call..but, along with Stride, Kelly may have been someone elses work.
Just dont mention it to the Barnettists !!
Monty
 |
Robert W. House
Police Constable
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
I think it is very strange how everyone seems to question that Stride is a likely JTR victim. I have not yet heard one piece of compelling evidence to exclude her from the list. |
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