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Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 9:42 pm: |       |
As promised here is a short summary of 130 people I interviewed over an eight month time span. The interviews took place in New Orleans and Atlanta. The interviews werewith 130 people deeply involved with BDSM community.
Of those interviewed, 26 were involved with edge play (death scenarios). Of the 26, 12 were heavily into knife play - - a form of edge play. Of the 12, 8 were Dommes/Doms ( Dominates ) and 4 were subs (submissives). Of the 8 Dommes/Doms, 7 were Doms (males). Like all the Dommes/Doms I interviewed, these 8 also displayed masochistic tendencies. The masochistic tendencies of these 8 involved knife play as well as other forms of edge play. All eight had self inflicted scars on their body from knives and various other edged weapons. All of the scars required stitches and emergency room visits. These scars were in discret places on their bodies. These places were discret because they could be hidden by clothing. Of the four subs involved with knife play, three had knife scars and one did not. The one unscared sub was new to the edge play scene and still required safe words. Her Dom stated that she was slowly being weened of her dependency on life. He further stated that soon she would be ready to fully place her life in his hands and allow him to do with her as he saw fit. He also stated that he would not kill her as that would cross the line of trust( No sh*% was my thought). One female submissive also displayed ligature marks on her neck that were consistent with a hangman's noose. Whether this was autoerotic or not she would not say.
Of the Dommes/Doms that did not take part in edge play all showed masochistic tendencies and one had fresh welps on his back consistent with a cat o' nine tails.
Peace,
Scott
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 235
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 2:41 pm: | |
Fascinating.
Most of the Doms/Dommes that I have seen working in nightclubs that have a 'bondage' theme have been female. And almost all of these clubs were involved with ONLY very low-level bondage, such as gentle 'paddling', or 'tickling' with the whip.
I've seen documentaries of male Subs who want to be slapped, kicked, punched, stomped, and spat on. This seems to be the realm of the female Domme.
I tend to think of this as bondage for the masses. It's popular, and the Sub isn't danger of being killed.
It seems to me like 'Edge Play' would be a mostly male dominated form of bondage. The hardcore bondage/piercing scenarios I read of were mainly male 'Masters' working on female Subs, or other male Subs. The piercings were some really crazy deep-tissue stuff.
I find it interesting that the Doms/Dommes you interviewed also displayed masochistic tendencies. I've no idea if it's related, but it reminds me of how sociopaths often self-mutilate with cuts.
I wonder if the further into hardcore BDSM you go, the higher the ratio of male Doms to female Dommes?
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Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 101
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 4:28 pm: | |
Marie,
From the people I interviewed, I was given the feeling that those who are not involved with edge play view those that are as a little ...well crazy...for lack of a better term. I was told by those who don’t play near the edge view those that do as people who give BDSM a bad name. Those that do take part in edge play basically have the no guts no glory mind frame and view safe words as hindering their show of affection to each other. During the course of one interview a non-edge playing Domme named Mistress Cain said “Be careful when you play on the edge, its so damn easy to fall off.”
I also found it interesting that the more hard core and violent Dommes/Doms were men. I was also amazed to learn that the Marquis De Sade also displayed masochistic tendencies. In the Marsailles Affair, I believe, he had his aid perform anal sex on him and he demanded the prostitute to beat him with a cat o’ nine tails. This of course was after he beat her mercilessly.
Peace,
Scott |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 240
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Hi Scott,
I have to agree with Mistress Cain: "“Be careful when you play on the edge, its so damn easy to fall off.”
I view the lack of safe words in hardcore bondage play as suicidal. But then, I guess that's the point with 'Edge Play'- ultimate trust. It seems to me that Edge Play scenarios would quickly result in a very strong emotional attatchment in the Sub for her Master.
I'm not sure if the 'scene' varies from country to country- but I did notice a distinct difference in flavour between London, and San Francisco. Mind, this was some years ago in my wild youth.
In SF, the 'Bondage Sex Club' scene was quite popularised, and ecclectic (music, body piercing, and tattoo scenes were equally represented at the clubs). The bondage scenarios 'on display' ranged from low-level spanking, to more hardcore 'blood-letting'.
My experience in London clubs is limited. I did notice they seemed more structured, and geared specifically to the BDSM scene. However, the bondage activity tended to be hushed up, and the clubs had all sorts of 'out of bounds' areas for media and press- due to legal constraints. I didn't notice any hardcore bondage on display- but I guess this was due more to issues of legality. Probably the underground scene is quite large.
I didn't know that the Marquis De Sade has masochistic tendencies.
I wonder if Jack used to 'cut' himself.
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Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 4:41 pm: | |
Marie,
I am really pressed for time today, but.... do you view Mistress Cain's warning as I do? A two way street? It could be easy for something to go wrong or it could be very easy for some Dom with the edge play mind frame to begin taking things a step too far in order to achieve climax? If so, maybe he doens't do so with his sub but with prostitutes which he probably views as beneath him. Toward the end of De Sade's reign, he employed his wife to procure prostitutes for him to quench his thirst and in the end she was actively procuring children for his pleasures.
Peace,
Scott |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 245
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 4:21 am: | |
I do view Mistress Cain's warning as a two-way street.
I've seen people fall into the abyss of drugs or drink- but I think it would take a special sort of person to fall of the edge with 'Edge Play'.
Someone whose needs were not being met by the game anymore.
But I think the Master who killed his Sub might get into trouble. There is usually a network of sorts with these games, and there would be someone who would report the murder, I imagine.
Furthermore, I think there is a bond between Sub and Master. I imagine the Master is the type of person who needs absolute devotion to him- which the Sub can provide, so I imagine the Sub is not harmed in the scenario you suggest.
Prostitutes don't have a 'Master', and won't provide devotion. I imagine that the Master-turned-killer could easily view prostitutes as beneath him. Perhaps not worthy of human consideration. |
Maura
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 4:44 pm: | |
Hi Marie,
And I do so agree..this post of Scott's is fascinating, as is yours Marie.
I've often thought the Marquis was a bit masochistic, just like Masocher, but I will admit it being easier to read "Venus in Furs" than anything about Sade's girls like Justine, etc.
This edge play post of Scott's keeps bringing to my mind that Roman Polanski film, "Knife in the Water" which I must recommend if anyone has not seen it. The guy with the knife play on the boat is simply mesmerizing.
I have no experience with any esoteric clubs, as I dwell in Ohio!
Gee..I really need to get out more. |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 260
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 11:54 am: | |
Marie,
Edge play can sometimes go to far - there was an article I recall reading a few months ago about a guy who put an ad in a paper in Germany requesting men to allow him to kill them and eat them. Someone responded - signed all the paperwork giving the guy permission to kill and eat him, and then he did it, and was promptly arrested. The thing was sexual for both of them.
Weird world.
B |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2724
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:05 pm: | |
Wow, Brian. That one I just had to research and read for myself. And sure enough, here it is:
--------------------
Cannibal victim ate own flesh
The victim in the cannibal murder case in Germany wrote his will immediately before he met his murderer, authorities said on Saturday amid mounting indications that victim and killer both engaged in cannibalism.
"The victim appeared to be fully aware of the situation," an investigator said. Videotape material definitely shows both him and the suspect engaged in eating his own flesh prior to his death."
Law officers who have seen the video made by the suspect of the final moments of his victim's life were said to be undergoing psychiatric counselling.
The 41-year-old suspect, identified only as Armin M, admitted having videotaped himself killing the man he had met via a gay Internet chat room. Both men were computer experts, both described as `internet addicts'.
His 42-year-old victim, a computer chip developer at Siemens Corporation in Berlin identified only as Bernd Juergen B., willingly allowed himself to be led to the slaughter, police said.
On the morning of his disappearance on March 9 last year, Bernd Juergen B wrote out his will and had it notarised. He left the bulk of his estate, including a lavish penthouse apartment, and $100,000 worth of computer equipment to his live-in partner, a man named Rene.
Rene knew nothing of his plans and discovered the will only after Bernd Juergen B was reported missing, according to Berliner Morgenpost newspaper. The victim reportedly sold most of his other
belongings, including a sports car just before his disappearance.
Unknown to his friend Rene, the victim had told his boss at Siemens he was taking that Friday off "to attend to some personal matters" and co-workers caught sight of him at a subway station in
Berlin. That was the last time he was seen in Berlin.
According to police, the victim had several thousand dollars in cash and his passport when he travelled 300km from Berlin to the alleged murderer's rambling half-timbered house near Kassel.
The two men had met via a gay internet chat room notice placed by the murderer, one of 80 such notices he had put on the internet. The notices read: "Gay male seeks hunks 18-30 to slaughter."
Police said a chat room user tipped them off to the existence of the ads. They now know of at least five respondents to the ad, besides undercover officers who answered it and quickly determined it was meant literally.
In addition to frozen human flesh and skeletal remains, police found the cellar had been renovated into a veritable two-room abattoir, including trough drains and meat hooks.
Police said the video shows the victim willingly allowed himself to be castrated and both men engaged in eating his severed flesh.
Armin M stabbed the man to death and suspended his body upside-down from a meat hook to gut and clean it. Then he dismembered the body. He froze the meat in "meal-sized packets" and
ate most of it, burying the portions he did not eat.
Police used diggers to unearth body parts on the grounds of his sprawling 17th century estate in the idyllic central German town of Rotenburg an der Fulda. The body parts were undergoing DNA testing
to determine whether they came from perhaps more than one victim.
Authorities said they have found no indications that more than one person's remains had been disposed of at the estate.
The murder suspect was described by neighbours as a pleasant and polite man who kept to himself.
He served a dozen years in the German armed forces as a non-commissioned officer in ordinance. He was described as an amiable and conscientious military man.
After leaving the military in 1991, he got re-training as a computer technician and until recently had a job with a software firm in the Rhine Valley city of Karlsruhe, 300km south of Rotenburg.
He lived with his mother in the 17th century half-timbered manor house, staying on there after her death three years ago.
"He was a mama's boy," a neighbour told reporters. "He was totally fixated on his mother, who he said never let him date girls. After she died, he began to thaw out."
Published on Dec 14, 2002
ONE News sourced from TVNZ, RNZ, Reuters and AAP
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 251
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:47 pm: | |
This case reminds me of one I came across a long time ago buried in some research material or the other, and that involved a German as well, this time a young lady.
She travelled I think to either Spain or Italy and then walked about the streets of a city asking young men to kill her with a knife she was carrying with her. Obviously all refused until she met a young chap who said 'no problem' and stabbed her to death.
I cannot now remember the outcome of the young man's trial.
Brian, please explain why it was a 'sexual thing'. |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 248
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
Oh wow, that article was deeply disturbing!
Hi Brian,
you wrote: "Edge play can sometimes go to far"
Oh, I'm not disputing that fact. I think 'Edge Play' ITSELF, is going too far.
There's nothing wrong with a little fun and fantasy in sexual play- but a person should never put themselves in extreme danger like this.
I once saw a video of a male Sub who wanted his female Domme to stomp on his genitalia repeatedly- and hard. I thought that was going too far, too- he was in danger of serious injury.
You've got to draw the line right there.
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 251
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
Maura: thank you for your post!
Oh, you're not really missing anything by not having been to a 'bondage-theme' nightclub. As a novelty, they're fun- but they quickly get boring.
Mostly it's low-level paddling and stuff. People wearing outrageous costumes. But I imagine if someone wanted to find friends for more hardcore play- those clubs would be a good place to start.
They were very popular in the '90s, but I think the popularity is waning now. I imagine the underground scene is just as large as it ever was, but 'bondage' seems to become mainstream and popularized only sporadically.
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Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | |
Hi, Stephen:
Thank you for posting that interesting article about the German killing and mutilation. I have been to Rothenburg, a pleasant medieval walled town saved from destruction in WWII by an American officer. What I found a disturbing aspect in the otherwise romantic, bucolic setting when I was there were the streets where it was said "the Jews used to live." I will think of the place a bit more differently now.
Incidentally, your posting of that true case is further verification that the killings and mutilations in the Ripper case were neither unusual nor something the killer probably thought too much about, at least certainly in feeling no remorse for the acts. Chilling.
All the best
Chris |
Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 9:01 pm: | |
Yes, Marie, the bond between Domme/Dom and sub are strong. And when the two practice edge play, in any variety, the bond is that much stronger. When involved in edge play, the two view it as the ultimate form of love and trust. The sub places their life in the hands of the Domme/Dom.
Even in Edge Play, it would be taboo for the Domme/Dom to kill the sub. However, with the level of trust that is developed between the two, it is highly believable that the sub will be willing to do anything the Dom/Domme requests, and this may include the procuring of victims for a Domme/Dom that has crossed the line. The level of trust and loyalty I saw exhibited between the two is astonishing.
Of the edge playing couples I interviewed, the males were more often in the dominate role, as I mentioned in the findings. The subs were both male and female and the female Domme (Mistress) had a female sub.
As I only interviewed people in New Orleans and Atlanta, it would be a good assumption that the BDSM scene may differ from city to city. New Orleans, long known for being the most depraved city in the Western Hemisphere, was home to all but one edge playing couple, and I was told there was more as they have their own private club where they meet once a month.
New Orleans - - also known as the most haunted city in the US and considered by many Parapsychologist to be second only to London - - also has a big Vampire Cult where BDSM rules and the subs submit themselves to blood letting and Dommes/Doms partake of the blood in a highly ritualized manner. Of course New Orleans is a city where Santaria is considered second to Catholicism and Voodoo is still practiced and people offer prayers and sacrifices to the ghost of Voodoo Priestess Marie LaVeux. Tales of the power of the Gris-Gris or the sightings of the Loup Garoux abound from the French Quarter to the Bayous that make up a large part of South Louisiana. So, yeah, BDSM is viewed a little different here than many places.
As far the Marquis De Sade, I believe it was the Marsialles Affair where he threatened to cut the throat of a prostitute if she told anyone of their encounter. In another encounter he held a knife to the throat of a prostitute - - procured by his wife - - and threatened to "rip her from her throat to her pubes" if she didn't comply with his wishes.
Peace,
Scott
P.S.
If anyone has the pleasure to talk to a Domme/Dom or sub or interview them please remember that respect is the order of the day, to get respect you have to give it. Screwing up protocol only shuts everybody up and everything down and you'll quickly find yourself a outcast. Most subs will only talk after their Domme/Dom has given them permission. If not instructed otherwise, address all questions to the Domme/Dom. If you are corresponding by e-mail, letters or put their names or titles in print then the Domme/Dom is always capitalized and the sub is always lowercased. |
Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 255
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 6:56 am: | |
Hi Scott,
You wrote: "However, with the level of trust that is developed between the two, it is highly believable that the sub will be willing to do anything the Dom/Domme requests, and this may include the procuring of victims for a Domme/Dom that has crossed the line"
I completely agree. In fact, I knew of a married couple in SF who were Domme and sub. He worked security at a nightclub, so was in the position to meet many women. Part of the reason she agreed to marry him was because he promised to keep bringing girls home for three-way play. Last I heard, the marriage was in trouble because the (male) sub wasn't having much luck convincing women to come and play with him and his wife.
Obviously this is a very tame example, but I can see where your scenario would be completely plausible.
PS: I didn't know that about the capitalization/ lowercase!
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