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Craig
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | 
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What kind of knife did JTR use to kill his victims? |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 7:12 pm: |
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Craig
Such details are not known with certainty.
It may be more accurate to ask, "what types of knives were used on the various victims?".
And in that you are not assuming any particular group of victims were 'Jack's'.
The type of weapon used was only determined by the doctors during the post-mortem examination.
I believe the type of weapon described used on Martha Tabram was a short bladed knife similar to a clasp-knife or pen-knife. This was the weapon suggested to have caused 38 of the 39 wounds. The 39th wound, through the breastbone was suggested to possibly have been similar to a bayonet.
Probably due to the shape of the cross-section hole left in the breastbone & the depth on the stab.
With Chapman & Eddowes the knife was suggested to have been approx. 6-8 inch in length & stout backed, if my memory serves.
you should read the medical reports of each victim to get as near an answer as you can.
The medical reports are the only available data from which you can expect to determine the type of weapon used on each victim.
All we know regarding the weapon type is in the medical reports.
Regards, Jon |
Christian Jaud
Police Constable
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 7:12 am: |
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Hi Jon,
I don't think there were two knifes involved in the Tabram murder.
On one hit the knife got stuck in the breast bone and had to be moved around to get it released again, thus creating a different form of wound.
(IMHO)
regards
Christian
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Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 10:31 am: |
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Hi Christian.
Isnt it unfortunate that Dr Killeen's reasoning for making the determination that he did about the 39th wound has not survived to our times.
Personally, I do not think it is unreasonable to guess (and it is only a guess) that the shape & depth of that singular wound was paramount in his determination that the wound was caused by a larger, longer weapon. In fact I would also guess that to draw a conclusion as to a second weapon being used would be 'against the norm.'. The logical conclusion any medical practitioner would arrive at is that only one weapon was used. Medical professionals are normally conservative and not usually known for sticking their neck out. Therefore, to be satisfied, and to announce publicly that a second weapon was evident suggests to me the evidence was strong and compelling. No doctor would wish to draw criticism from his peers by making such a simple oversite.
Killeen determined it to be "some kind of dagger". The dagger, or knife blade bayonet had only recently come into use, but it was used by both the Coldstream & Grenadier Guards stationed at the Tower.
Had these units been carrying the typical triangular 'spike' bayonet then there would have been little cause to question them on that fact.
I was only giving Craig the basic's, not trying to influence him in any way.
Christian, let me ask you this, "do you think that a doctor conducting a post-mortem could not distinguish between a large knife thrust into muscle & bone and a smaller knife jiggled about in some such manner as to leave a wider hole (but not deeper?)?"
You may be right Christian, but, I think a doctor would be able to tell the difference.
Regards, Jon |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 11:50 am: |
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I do agree with your post, Jon, and find this statement very interesting: "Killeen determined it to be "some kind of dagger". The dagger, or knife blade bayonet had only recently come into use, but it was used by both the Coldstream & Grenadier Guards stationed at the Tower."
I've always felt that Martha was a victim of the soldier she went with. |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:07 pm: |
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I wonder if any of the soldiers who were questioned after Tabram's murder, were ever picked up for questioning after any of the other murders? I've never read anything like that.
I wonder if any of them were off during any of the times of the other killings?
Just speculation, on my behalf. Seems like it would have been a good lead to follow up, when the later killings started happening. |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 12:40 pm: |
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Maria, I might like to elaborate on that quote you selected above.
Through a little research a few years ago, writing to the relevent parties in London, I found that both the spike & the dagger bayonet were in use in the late 19th century, it was a transitional period for this weapon. Not all the military changed over at once, it was periodic.
The Guards on duty at the Tower of London were questioned as to whether they carried their bayonets while out on leave, and in one report we have a soldier being asked to provide his bayonet to the police for elimination, I presume. Regardless, the soldier was cleared and the investigation went no further.
There is a story that bayonets were so common that they could be bought for a few pence at local markets and even small children could be seen playing with them in the streets.
This though, surely must be in reference to the spike bayonet, not the dagger-type, which was relatively new. However, this is only with reference to British weapons. European dagger-type bayonets may have been available, I never researched into that aspect of it.
As a footnote, I came across a story, which unfortunately I have never been able to re-locate, that it was as a consequence of the Tabram murder that military personel were caused to refrain from carrying bayonets while out on leave in the public streets of London.
This I must stress is unconfirmed and I think, though am not sure, that it came via Tom Cullen.
Best Regards, Jon |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 146
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 3:06 pm: |
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Hi Jon,
Thanks for the information!
Yes, one soldier was asked to produce his bayonet for inspection, but this inspection seems only to have been for traces of blood. I can't find any mention that this soldiers bayonet wasn't the type used in the murder.
So it's possible that the bayonet was of the right type for the crime, but didn't show any traces of blood on it. The soldier was cleared because he was staying at his father's hotel, and his alibi was verified.
However, the soldier that PC Barrett picked up at the line-up (Private John Leary) had a very thin alibi. Supposedly, he and his friend (Private Law) were drinking in Brixton until closing time. Whereupon they became separated, and Leary spent the time wandering around until 4.30am, whereupon he happened upon Law again. Then they walked to Billingsgate and had a drink, and were back in barracks by 6.00am.
The fact is, they couldn't name anybody who could verify their alibis. Leary gave his information to Inspector Reid in private, then Law was called in to give his information, which happened to match Leary's.
But supposing that Leary and Law were drinking with Tabram, and Pearly Poll. Then Leary killed Tabram, and they both concocted this alibi between them, before they returned to barracks. They had plenty of time. |
Christian Jaud
Police Constable
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 3:29 pm: |
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Hi Jon,
sorry for replying so late.
(we got a brand-new baby-girl at home and she keeps us b-u-s-y)
Well, they way you put it ( any doc being VERY careful and thorough before announcing that two knives...)sounds very convincing to me, I must admit.
The reason why I doubted it in the first place and why a bit of doubt remains for me is the question "Why?" Why stabbing someone 38 times and then change instruments for one final hit? Or was the "extra" hit the first one? Unlikely imho, because it wasn't lethal and would've caused serious screaming of Martha while her murderer is looking for the other knife.
Even more unlikely is the scenario of changing weapons for one single hit in the midst of the furious act.
See my point? How would you explain the change of knives?
regards
Christian
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Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 6:48 pm: |
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Hi Christian.
Congrats on the new little girl, you'll get used to the noise....
(nah, why lie, actually you won't, it'll drive you crazy)
My little girls have all grown up and flown the nest (thank goodness).
Two weapons?, well, your conundrum would not be so perplexing if, in Tabrams case, there were two killers.
Yes Marie, I suspect two soldiers were involved. Its the simplest solution, and soldiers certainly do cover for each other in such situations. I'm not totally convinced though, I just think its the simplest solution.
Regards, Jon
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Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 7:09 am: |
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Jon,
thanks for the congratulations.
She's well behaved so far anyway and sleeps a lot,
so I mustn't grumble. :-)
"Two killers" sounds reasonable to explain the two kinds of weapons. We'll never know or sure but it sounds likely.
Last question: Do you think "JTR" was someone else or could he be one of those two who started off as a duo on Tabram and he continued solo?
Or maybe they continued as a duo?
Thanks for your answers
Christian
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Marie Finlay
Inspector
Username: Marie
Post Number: 151
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 7:35 am: |
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Christian wrote: "Do you think "JTR" was someone else or could he be one of those two who started off as a duo on Tabram and he continued solo?
Or maybe they continued as a duo?"
I've been considering this, too.
I used to discount Tabram as a 'Ripper' victim, but now I'm not sure. Perhaps Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were victims of the two soldiers.
It would take a lot to convince me that Kelly or Stride were 'Ripper' victims.
As I stated in my post, (I could be wrong but)- I wasn't satisfied with the alibi that Privates Leary and Law provided.
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Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 9:32 am: |
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Hi Christian.
Well, to answer your question, I tend to think if anyone actually 'knew' who was committing those murders, word would have got out.
Remember how up-in-'arms the local population got about the issue?, writing to the press, actually welcoming the police into their backstreets, vigilance committees, rewards, etc. I suspect, though in no way can we be certain, that if anyone 'knew' who was committing these murders then that someone, previous accomplice or not, would have told, or in some way would have got word to the authorities.
Another clue in my mind, regarding the killer(s) of Tabram is, I do not see the same technique displayed on Tabram that we see on Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes.
And we have covered the "progressive killer" hypothesis, and I don't buy it.
The killer (JtR) may well have been part of an eastend gang at one time, but if so, I doubt if any gang members were aware that JtR 'had' been among their group.
But then again, its all speculation.
Regards, Jon |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 6:28 pm: |
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In some of these exchanges we (me?) may have drifted wide of the topic. So, in an effort to get it back on track......
I thought I might poste a few weapons which have been either mentioned or considered as 'potential' murder weapons, for one reason or another.
If anyone has a pic of the Liston knife, maybe you would like to poste it here for readers to review.
The knife below was considered because it was available in 1888, actually I think in December, but, opinion has it that this date was only the 'official' release date and that quite possibly the knife had been distributed months prior to December. I think this is a reasonable proposal. The knife was issued to the military as the new bayonet.
 |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 6:34 pm: |
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Hmm, I see it was truncated 
Ok, well there was also the typical butchers boning knife...
 |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 6:38 pm: |
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Hmm, now its not truncated
And lastly, the alternate period bayonet which is single-sided (fits the description of "stout back" given at one of the inquiries)
 |
Craig
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 1:07 pm: |
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Thanks everybody for the info.
I am doing a computer graphics project for school and decided to do JTR and I just needed to know what the weapon might look like.
If you have any other ideas for my project I'd be greatful.
Thanks again,
Craig |
John R. Fogarty
Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:42 am: |
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Interesting question about the sort of blade(s) possibly used by JTR. Although no one really knows with any certainty precisely what type of knife, scalpel or blade he might've used, I've attached a few pics which might help:
>
>
This is the surgical knife given to author Donald Rumbelow by Dorothy Stroud. She apparently received it in 1937 from one Hugh Pollard, sporting editor of Country Life. The knife's provenance is persuasive, as Pollard was the partner of gunsmith Robert Churchill, ballistics expert for Scotland Yard (see Jack the Ripper A - Z, pg. 201)
>
This is a Teufel Surgical Kit, circa 1870s. The long, slender blades at the top are amputation knives. Note that the kit also contains a small bone axe, possibly the type used to split Mary Kelly's thigh bone.
>
Finally, a close up of the various blades, scalpels, retractors, etc., typically contained in a Teufel kit of the late 19th century.
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy)
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Mick Brocking
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 1:38 pm: |
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Hi,
Just to add fuel, in Victorian London doctors were not that through when it came to post mortems. A police surgeon was nothing more than a doctor from the local hospital who received a fee. They were not fond of being woken in the early hours of the morning when they had to go to work the following day, usually for very long hours, so sleep was a valued comodity when they could get it.
The doctor in the Nichols murder proved that they were not that through by only looking at the obvious at the scene of crime. His examination took 10 minutes then he went home and back to bed, only to be called out an hour later. Given the fact that the Tabram murder had happened shortly before, I would have thought he would have checked for mutilations.
In answer to the main question though, I came across the description of an operation performed by Sir Robert Liston in 1846. This shows the speed that an experienced surgeon can work.
'He then takes from his long narrow case one of the straight amputating knives of his own invention. It is evidently a favourite instrument, for on the handle are little notches showing the number of times he had used it before. His house Surgeon, Ransome, puts the saw and the artery forceps onto the chair close by, then threads a wisp of well waxed hemp ligature through his own buttonhole
...... the porters are waiting just outside, and the patient is carried in on a stretcher and laid on the table..... Liston stands by, trying the edge of his knife against his thumbnail, and the tension increases...
Ransome holds the limb. "Now gentlemen, time me," says Liston to the students.
The huge left hand grasps the thigh, a thrust of the long straight knife, two or three rapid sawing movement(s) and the upper flap (of skin) is made. Half a dozen strokes and Ransome places the limb in the sawdust.
"Twenty - eight seconds!" says William Squires. The femoral artery is tied with two stout ligatures, a strip of wet lint placed between the flaps and the stump raised'.
I have also attached a pic of his amputation kit showing the three knives. It is also worth noting that if JtR carried such a kit he could have opted for any one of the three knives, he didn't have to use the same one each time.
 } |
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 11:46 am: |
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I am surprised that no-one (apparently) has considered the weapon used on Tabram may have had two blades, one round ended, and used for general cutting, say plug tobacco and the other pointed and dagger like.
The only reason I believe the wound to the chest was said to be made by a dagger or a bayonet was because it was a thrust type wound rather than a cut type.
Personally speaking I see the chest wound as being the last inflicted, a sort of full stop if you like.
Bob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 1:45 pm: |
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HI ,
What a nasty collection,I would hate to be on the receiving end of them.
Richard, |
Scott Medine
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
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Be careful in assuming that two weapons were used on Tabram. It is extremely common for one weapon to make many differet size wounds and wound patterns. This depends on the tissue that was penetrated and the amount of force used. The elasticity of flesh in regards to edged weapon attacks is one factor that is always scrutinized.
Also,do not be so fast to throw out progression. There is evidence that shows the killer's MO was evolving.
Peace,
Scott |
John R. Fogarty
Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 3:52 pm: |
|
Good point about the Liston kit affording JtR his choice of knives, which might explain why doctors felt Stride's neck wound was caused by a short blade -- because it was. JtR may indeed have had his choice of weapons.
I'm strongly persuaded by the notion that Tabrum's sternum wound might have simply looked as if caused by a second knife owing to the tough breastbone beneath. In any event, here's another look at the Liston Knife:
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy)
|
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 17
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 4:28 pm: |
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Hi all,
Hi Jon Smyth,
looks like the thread is at its starting point again.
;-)
Christian
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Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 4:28 pm: |
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sorry, double post
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Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 9:24 pm: |
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Concerning the knives used in the murders being possibly from a kit; I have found an interesting site that describes not only knife wounds from a forensic point of view, but also a description of a typical autopsy procedure. If you would like to read it go to autopsy There are at least 4 different connections to this case; The method of opening the body cavity, the reference to the chalk, the dressing in evening clothes while performing the autopsy ( showing off how neatly they could do the procedure ). and reference to the way the surgeon kept his own sharp and favourite knife in a special carrying bag, etc. I hope you will find this as interesting as I did. I actually started reading the site for information about ligature strangulation (my favourite subject), but I was
struck by that description so much that I just had to pass it on to you for your opinions!
I believe Martha was stabbed and fell back and hit her head, (she had bruising under the scalp and her hands were clenched). Further stab wounds were made after the killing blow.
From a simplistic point of view: Two prostitutes, one possibly a transvestite who likes soldiers
( hee hee I just had to put that in,) go with two soldiers or sailors, and later one prostitute is found dead, who did it? D'uh! Most likely NOT Jack the Ripper.
Hope to hear some more opinions on the autopsy angle.
Joan |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 113
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:27 pm: |
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Joan and all:
I don't know that Tabram was killed by jack the Ripper or the soldiers. I believe though I have no proof that she had a customer after the soldiers. On to the weapon.
The sword bayonet (as shown above) was in use in the 1850s It was issued in some numbers with the Enfield Model 1853 .577 calibre rifle-musket that was purchased in great quanity during the American Civil War by both sides. In fact here in New York, the Enfield was the standard New York issue. The weapon was issued with both triangular(Spike)and sword bayonet. What you got depended on what lot your regiment's issue came from.
I would look for the weapon to be a dagger but we will likely never know.
My choice would be either a sailor or marine if I had to make a guess as to Tabram's killer. Neil |
Neil K. MacMillan
Detective Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 9:13 pm: |
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As an aside to my post above, If the dagger was broken that would account for the difference in the wounds as would the knife being stuck in the sternum. kindest regards, Neil |
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