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Message |
    
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | 
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It has very recently come to my attention that before Kearly & Tonge moved their main warehouse operation from Whitechapel to Southall - date as yet unknown - they actually marketed products from there under the brand name 'Mitre', which is an obvious reference to Mitre Square where their main warehouse was based, and outside of which Eddowes was murdered.
I would be most interested to hear from anyone with further information about these 'Mitre' products or anything else connected to this site or company. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 3:31 pm: |
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Hi, AP:
I do see a webpage for Buckinghamshire County Museum that shows a Commemorative Coronation Cake Tin for Queen Elizabeth II's coronation, at
Bucks County Museum Object of the Month
As noted: "The inside of the tin lid is printed ‘MITRE CAKES Made by KEARLY & TONGE LTD MITRE SQUARE LONDON EC3’. The outside of the tin is decorated with crown motifs and is printed with the words ’A SOUVENIR OF THE CORONATION OF H.M. QUEEN ELIZABETH II, 2ND JUNE 1953’. Despite being nearly 50 years old, the original corrugated paper is still intact inside."
I also checked the ebay auction site to see if there were any other Mitre brand products for sale but at present see none offered. We might want to keep our eye out for them there though.
Best regards
Chris George
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AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 3:54 pm: |
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Thanks for that Chris.
It does surprise me though, as I was led to believe that Kearly & Tonge moved their warehouse and production centre from Mitre Square to Southall before the 2nd World War, so to see an object made by them in 1953 from Mitre Square doesn't quite square up. Perhaps they just kept the product name and address after they moved?
Anything else you turn up would be great.
I have tried - through the present tea trade - to track down more information on Kearly & Tonge but have not enjoyed much success.
Obviously what I would like is a complete listing of their warehouse holdings in that area of London, and the bonus of an employees' register from the 1880's.
I'll just dream on. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 4:19 pm: |
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Hi AP:
I have not read your book but am I to gather that you have a theory that more than one Ripper victim was killed in the vicinity of East End warehouses of the Kearly & Tonge company? That is, I know Catherine Eddowes was killed in Mitre Square close to Kearly & Tonge's warehouse there, but are you saying victims other than Eddowes were murdered near other warehouses belonging to the company? I gather you are saying that three victims were killed near the company's warehouses, is that right? Please elucidate if you would, AP.
Best regards
Chris George |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 5:01 pm: |
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Elucidation.
Chris, yes you are right, Catherine Eddowes was killed between two Kearly & Tonge warehouses that faced each other over Mitre Square.
Mary Nichols was also murdered outside a tea warehouse, but I am unable to say to whom that warehouse belonged.
Annie Chapman was murdered directly outside of premises that built packing cases for the tea trade.
A later 'victim' - whether we accept her or not as a victim of the Ripper - Frances Coles, was also killed outside a warehouse.
I'm afraid I can find no information as to the trade of that particular warehouse.
As I already said I find it very difficult to trace information on the Kearly & Tonge empire, however I do know - from my own childhood in Hong Kong and Singapore - that this was a formidable and powerful company back then much in the ilk of Cable and Wireless today, who held a virtual stranglehold on the tea and sugar trade at the beginning of this century.
I wouldn't say I have a theory regarding this, I was just struck by the information as it unfolded, and when I combined it with the fact that someone I was following very closely indeed actually worked for that company as a clerk in the tea trade and then later as a canvasser for a directory of tea related businesses in the Whitechapel area of London I was easily seduced by the four pence it cost me.
So yes, I think the warehouses of Kearly & Tonge play a central role in this, but then I would say that wouldn't I?
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Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 5:27 pm: |
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Hi, AP:
Then it sounds as if you are hinting that alleged suspect Thomas Haynes Cutbush (1866-1903), who had worked a clerk for a tea company in the Minories, had more to do with the murders than is generally credited. Am I warm? 
The Whitechapel/Aldgate/Spitalfields areas of the East End to some extent of course partly comprised a warehouse district, or at least an area where a number of warehouses were located, being adjacent as they were to the docks, railway yards, canals, and other modes of transportation, with a number of manufacturing or shipping businesses based there.
It might be a stretch to say that Amelia Richardson's packing case business at 29 Hanbury Street (the Annie Chapman murder) is another link in the chain. I had not heard that she made packing cases for the tea trade.
Best regards
Chris George |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 8:19 pm: |
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Were there a lot of warehouses in the east end? Did they all belong to Kearley and Tonge? |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 3:31 am: |
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Chris,
warm yes, but I suggest you read the relevant chapters in my work - available on site here at the Casebook - as the Kearly & Tonge element is only one small part of a much more general view.
I agree with you that this particular area of London was aswarm with warehouses in that time period, which is why I have been keen to discover exactly who owned the warehouses I mentioned earlier.
Just cleaning up the streets our lad, as it were.
Your polite choice of the word 'stretch' in regard to 29 Hanbury Street is delightful.
I think me own neck should be stretched for taking such an ambitious leap.
Diana
I wished I knew the answer to that. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 8:05 am: |
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Hi, AP:
So was Jack a tea or a cocoa man?
I don't know whether you are aware of the "Short Take" that we published in Ripper Notes about the Jack the Ripper communication involving the Bensdorp cocoa company with the telegraphic address RIPPERDA (see Evans and Skinner, Jack the Ripper: Letters from Hell). The article that we published resulted from a posting on the old message boards before you joined them. The researcher, Alan G. Parker, wrote to me in an e-mail that he was "pointing out the many coincidences that arise from the curious Bensdorp postcard. The telegraphic address RIPPERDA would not be known to the public, but it would be known to someone such as Cutbush who would be visiting businesses in the area to get them to subscribe to his directory. Cutbush also worked in the right area - the Minories - close to Whitechapel and only a short walk from St. Pauls where Bensdorp had their offices and warehouse. The post card is a most curious item. It is almost as if the writer is laying a trail of clues - first the telegraphic address - then the reference to Patrick Street [Dublin] which from information I have gathered today was Dublin's equivalent of Petticoat Lane complete with the same slum image of the housing roundabout. I have also found out today that HANBURY STREET Dublin is also known as HANBURY LANE so the link there may not be as strong as I first thought - though it is still a remarkable coincidence."
As you know, after his work as a clerk for the tea company, Thomas Cutbush was, in 1888, said to be working for a business directory in the Minories. Mr. Parker thought that there might have been a link between Cutbush and the Bensdorp postcard, with the cocoa company having offices in both London and Dublin, the latter being not far from Hanbury Street, Dublin.
Best regards
Chris George |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 6:57 am: |
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Hi AP
ON a personal note I can say definitely that Kearley and Tonge has a presence in Mitre Square well after the time you mention - in fact well after 1953. Whether this would have still been a warehouse or an office address I don't know. My parents were in catering all their working lives and I vividly remember when they moved to the last job they had. They were catering manager and staff manager (dad and mum respectively) of a large school in Hertfordshire and they did not take up that post until at least the early to mid 1970s. One of the main suppliers for the catering company they worked for was Kearley and Tonge. It was just about that time I was getting heavily interested in JTR so imagine my suprise when I visited the folks and found hanging in their kitchen a K&T calendar which one of their salesmen had given them - it was definitley a current calendar for that year ( somethere about 1974) and definitely had Mitre Square address on the calendar cos I remember boring them senseless with explaining how it was relevant to JTR!!!.
Hope this helps
Chris S
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Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 9:20 am: |
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This appears to be our man as listed in the 1881 British census. I will also put this in the thread for Cutbush--
Thomas CUTBUSH
Male
Other Information:
Birth Year <1866>
Birthplace Newington
Age 15
Occupation Com Clerk
Marital Status U <unmarried>
Head of Household John K. HAYNE
Relation Son
Source Information:
Dwelling 14 Albert St
Census Place Newington, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341125
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0551 / 103
Page Number 29
See Cutbush listing in the LDS Family Search. |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 1:31 pm: |
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Chris (George)
As I hope you and everyone else know I have been out of the trade for ten long years and inevitably some rust has crept in, and here I am very creaky.
I didn't know any of this, not a jot!
The fact that there were a lot of cocoa mills in Whitechapel had not escaped my attention, but everything else had, I'm afraid.
I am terribly intrigued by the entire affair and will now study it in great depth.
Any other information you might have would be handsomely appreciated.
To my cost, perhaps, I have always utterly ignored any so-called communication from Jack the Ripper and dismissed the whole pack of them as the work of charlatans and fraudsters.
Are you able to put me in touch with Mr. Parker?
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AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 1:42 pm: |
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Chris (Scott)
thanks for that. I was told on another site that the company had moved from Mitre Square prior to the 2nd World War, and as you and I suggested perhaps they kept an office there merely to bolster their products carrying the name 'Mitre'.
It would be nice to know though.
Given your superb ability on the net aren't you able to dig up more on this company. I certainly failed. |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 1:52 pm: |
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Chris (George)
I have long had Thomas' census results and studied them until I have quite worn the paper thin.
However it does reward study though. For instance I believe it obvious that Thomas is in fact the son of his American aunt Kate, the ages do not match for the stated parents. Also his given birth place is the same as the given census station: Newington, Surrey.
I didn't like that.
However when I told a highly respected author in this field about my feelings, he said 'Oh yes, Thomas is Kate's son.'
So perhaps you lot already knew that.
Rust again.
And then I sat down and thought 'So Jack the Ripper might have been an American after all.'
But quickly dismissed the idea and reached for the comfort of a bottle of Safeway's Spanish Brandy. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 1:59 pm: |
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Hi, AP:
I have contacted you by e-mail with information about Mr. Parker.
As you do, my own inclination is to discount the Jack the Ripper letters as being mostly if not all hoaxes. However, I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that the murderer may have written one letter or so. For example, possibly the September 24 ("I am a slauterer" [sic]) letter but not the Dear Boss letters which seem a bit too facile and artificial, after which he withdrew from letter writing as everyone jumped on the bandwagon, or a letter or two somewhere along the way, the Lusk letter or the Openshaw letter, or even this Bensdorp postcard. If the stereotypical idea of Jack as a taunter of the authorities basking in his cleverness of eluding them is to any extent true, he might conceivably have written such a letter.
All the best
Chris |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 4:18 pm: |
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A valid point, Chris, and our Thomas did love to write a letter. Why, he wrote to Lord Grimthorpe - and I strongly urge you and anyone else with an interest in the case to study the fair Grimthorpe and understand why Thomas chose to write to him - and to his doctor threatening to shoot him for supplying 'bad' medicine.
At this point you should really study Richard Chase who injected himself with rabbit's blood and then complained to the pet shop where he had bought the animal as a pet that they had supplied him with a 'bad' rabbit.
Richard liked to write as well.
Yes, I could see Thomas writing a letter or card, but it would not have been clever.
He would have never taunted authority but would have felt genuinely outraged that someone would have supplied him with 'bad' medicine or even a 'bad' rabbit.
So, if there is a letter or postcard around that sounds like that then I'm persuaded. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 3:44 pm: |
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Hi AP
Well I can never resist a challenge:-)
I did manage to find out a bit about the background of the company
The firm was originally founded in 1876 under the name of Heseltine and Kearley and opened its first branch in Brentford in 1878. From 1880 onwards many branches were opene in town and country under the name of International Stores.
G.A.Tonge joined the firm soon after and on Hesletine's retirement in 1887 it changed its name to Kearley and Tonge.
Hope this might be of use
Chris S |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 9:28 am: |
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Hi Chris and AP:
You probably both know this but for those who don't, there is a webpage for Kearly and Tonge at http://www.arkearley.freeserve.co.uk/famous/hek.htm
In my capacity as North American editor for Ripperologist I have contacted the site to see if someone might be willing to write an article for our magazine on the company and its founder, the Right Honorable Hudson Ewbanke Kearley, Viscount Devonport (1856-1934). Chris, if they are unable to write such a piece for us, do I hear you volunteering for the job?
All the best
Chris George |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:14 am: |
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Hi Chris
Well if you don't hear anything from the site you mentioned (which I did find in my travels on the net)then I would be glad to see what I can do for an article
I have found out one more lead: on one page I found:
" Kearley and Tongue were bought by Booker Foodservice in the mid-1970s"
Hope this helps and I'll wait to hear if you want the article done
Regards
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 11:30 am: |
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Hi Chris
Re the article you mention. Bear with me cos this gets complicated!!!
Kearley and Tonge were taken over in the mid 1970's by Booker Foodservices who themselves have since had two changes of name. They became Foodservices but are now known as 3663
I have been in contact with the Head Office of 3663 and made contact with their main account manager who is going to do his best to track down any archive material relating to Kearley and Tonge and arrange for me to have access to it
I'll let you know the outcome
Regards
Chris |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 1:38 pm: |
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Chris & Chris
I just wish that I had known you chaps back in the dark ages of the early '90's!
You certainly get the job done.
I didn't know any of this, and I have searched the web tirelessly for information about Kearley and Tonge but I guess I just kept on pressing the wrong buttons.
I am in debt to the pair of you and look forward to whatever comes forth from this, even when it sinks my over-laden ship. |
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 36
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 1:56 pm: |
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Hi, AP and Chris:
Excellent work, Chris. Yes, do keep us informed on the outcome of your enquiries with the successor company that took over from the people who bought out Kearley and Tonge. It would be wonderful if they did have archives that they would share for the period in question. In any case, as I have indicated, Ripperologist would be interested in a general history of the company and of its founder, Lord Devonport. It does occur to me though that there might be correspondence in the company files that says something about the case... or maybe the company was threatened with a Jack the Ripper letter which happened with so many individuals and entities connected to the case.
AP, always glad to share what I know and to help others. Personally, one of the things that I like about Ripper research is exploring the little side alleys. We may never know who Jack was, but there is a lot to learned about various facets and connections to the case.
All the best
Chris |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 3:43 pm: |
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Chris (George)
Quite right, the ability to share valid information is probably the essential key to unlock the door.
Regarding the Jack letters, which we discussed earlier on.
The letter 'from Hell' to the good Mister Lusk could well have been written by Richard Chase or Thomas Cutbush. It suits the pair of them very well. I am drawn to this letter for that very reason.
This is very difficult. I am no expert on the subject, however like you I have an enquiring mind and enjoy the dark alleyways of pursuit.
To that end I have some original early correspondence from Richard Ramirez - postcards, letters and even a Christmas card - who you may well remember as the young man who received 19 death sentences in 1985 from a Texas court for his despicable crimes. When I was able to compare this to some later writings of his - which I was also luckily enough to obtain through a valued contact of mine who is also serving two life sentences in a Texan establishment that just happened to be the same one as Ramirez - there was absolutely no comparison. The man had degenerated. He had become a complete and utter babbling idiot in the space of a few years and could not string together a postcard, let alone a letter, but at the time Richard Ramirez was killing people he was totally lucid and very literate, it was only when he was caught and went through the courts that his mind and ability to communicate disintegrated, and this was further compounded once he arrived in prison.
The disintegration of his personality did not seem to accompany his crimes but rather the consequences of those crimes, and I would think that this is an important distinction to be made when we look at these letters.
Basically what I am saying is that Richard Ramirez finally realised he had been a naughty boy when confronted by his actions in a court of law, and this was perhaps because there was nobody around to confront him when he was actually committing those crimes.
Sorry, am I losing you here?
Well, Thomas was a clerk, and a clerk would not write a letter anything like any of the letters we have seen as supposedly from Jack the Ripper.
However, if Thomas was a clerk who just happened to be completely and utterly around the bend and liked to stab women, and then was confronted by that 'naughty' habit of his by his very close knit family - including his obviously concerned uncle, Executive Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbsuh of Scotland Yard - then yes, Thomas could have written the Lusk letter.
Now where the blazes is this postcard from cocoa land? |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 5:18 pm: |
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It would also explain why the letter went to Lusk rather than the police. Cutbush would not be worried about the police because of his uncle. He might have found the WVC more intimidating. |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 6:11 pm: |
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Excellent point, Diana, for young Thomas would have seen the police as his 'friends', and certainly would have viewed the activities of the WVC as annoying - I can't agree with 'intimidating' - and he would have set his lance at them for that reason.
Thomas would have never written to the police.
He lived with them.
I go back to the letter that Thomas wrote to Lord Grimshaw. Not the content, but why write to Lord Grimshaw?
I think I know, but it would be grand if someone else could confirm it.
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Monty
Police Constable
Username: Monty
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 11:25 am: |
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Chris's...........nah thats wrong, Chrises...nope...Chrisi ??
Nice one boys anyway,
Out of curiosity, these Kearly and Tongues warehouses in Mitre square. Was Morris the nightwatchman over both ??
Monty
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AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 1:28 pm: |
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Sorry
In my last post I mentioned a certain 'Lord Grimshaw', my apologies to the old boy who is probably apoplectic at being mentioned in such a dubious connection. I did of course mean Lord Grimthorpe. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 12:59 pm: |
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Hi all
I have had a swift reply from the guy in 3663 (the company that took over Kearley & Tonge) and this is the bulk of his reply:
"Chris
My initial enquiries have not been very fruitful, I'm afraid.
The only formal archives are financial. It is possible that Booker has a
generic archive and you might like to try them.
One of 3663's people - retiring next month - was an employee of United Yeast
Cmpany, founded in 1899. They merged with Fitch Lovell - who were later
acquired by Booker Foodservice. He knew the name of K&T and he
half-remembers someone else still in the company who worked for them. He is
running a search through his mind and other places to see if he can come up
with a name. So, we may have a living link to K&T.
Other than that - and the words 'grandmother", "suck" and "eggs" come to my
mind - is to have a look at back copies of Caterer and Hotelkeeper. It was
founded in 1878 and has never changed its name. The British Library ( of
course - you know this! ) hold a huge archive of such things and there is an
online search facility.
So, there it is - for what it is worth. I will continue to dig up what I
can.
The 3663 man would love to talk to you direct - he's snowed under due to his
retirement - but I said that i thought you might be interested in doing
that. He loves history and has a fascination for this industry.
I have not mentioned to any one the exact nature of your resaerch, only that
you are researching K&T in general and Mitre Square in particular."
I will let you know any results asap
Chris S
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AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 5:09 pm: |
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A living artefact from that time?
I can't believe it, but I must.
Well done Chris.
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uzze
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 5:39 pm: |
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I worked for Kearley& Tonge any info req get back to me my fathe worked there from 1929 1974
regards Les uk |
Rene Dee
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 6:20 am: |
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I run The Royal Horticultural Halls & Conference Centre in Westminster, London SW1. On 4th April 1925 Mr. B. Chase of Kearley & Tonge hired our Hall on Vincent Square to hold a Dance. His business address was given as Mitre Square, London E.C. and also living at 142 Coombe Lane, Wimbledon S.W.20. I have the original contract with his signature on it. Can anyone enlighten me further about Mr. B. Chase? Were he and his family connected in any way with the Chase Bank?
Rene Deee}} |
Sylvia Croke
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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My mother was known as Alice Lloyd (probably Alice Archer, a dancer. The dancer was an aunt of Matilda Wood (Marie Lloyd, the Music Hall artiste). She married George Kearley, a comedian, in 1878 one year after the birth of my grandmother (father unknown). My mother said that Kearley of Kearley and Tonges adopted my grandmother because he disliked the idea of a small child on tour in Europe. My mother worked for Kearley and Tonge in Mitre Square as a secretary (approx 1918 - 1935) Jimmy Jenkins and Tandy were in charge of 2 sections on her floor. Other names were Joan and Gosling. My mother said a door in Mitre Square was blocked up because a murder had been committed there. |
