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Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3010
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | 
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This might seem a bit bizarre but I was wondering what other posters might think would have happened if Jack had been captured at the time and tried in court for his crimes?
Would he have swung for his crimes, or would he have got a nice little room at Broadmoor? |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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Depends upon who he was and his demeanor. If he was obviously a lunatic I don't think British Law would have permitted a conviction. If he was evidently sane, he probably would have been convicted and promptly hanged. If he was a big-wig member of high society he might never have been brought to trial but rather "encouraged" to go abroad and not return.
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5443
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
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Perhaps if he'd been found at the end of 1888, and found in a very public way e.g. a chase through the streets, etc, then he might have swung whether sane or not, simply to appease the public. As time passed, people seemed to lose interest in the case.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3012
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Thanks Andy & Robert.
I think Robert to be right, after 1888 he would have been confined and used as a 'specimen' at Broadmoor, but prior to that he would have been officially lynched.
I'm just interested to see what people thought then, and now. |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 211
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
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Being full of Christmas spirit, when I first read the title of this thread I wondered what on earth it was about!!!...but yes, I would agree with Robert, if he had been caught in late 1888 he wouldn't definitely have hung for it, sane or not, I doubt anyone would let him have the cushy little number in Broadmoor until well after the events had passed, it was almost a holiday camp in there!
Debs |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5445
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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This is from "Criminal Responsibility" by Charles Mercier, 1905.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
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Debra, I hope you're not putting Count Basie in the frame?
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 212
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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not anything that innocent either Robert,I am embarrassed to say.... i was thinking car keys in the fruit bowl! |
Jim DiPalma
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jimd
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Happy holidays all,
Robert, the last few sentences of that extract you posted are most intriguing. The writer seems to be claiming that those who committed "unnatural offences" and crimes of a singular nature in the LVP were *routinely* tried and incarcerated in secret, and implies that it was *common practice*. Given the way our boy seemed to drop off the radar after the C5, I can't help but wonder if that's what happened to him.
What does everyone make of this?
thanks, and resume holiday cheer,
Jim |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Jim,
Actually, this rather complicated sentence says that some individuals were routinely tried with as little publicity as possible -- not in secrecy. This implies that records would have been kept of such trials and should be available today. In fact, specific reference is made to their being included in "Blue Book" (crime statistics) totals, which means they must have been recorded.
Andy S. |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3380
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:17 pm: |
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swung,
definately
Jenni
ps five words la lala
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3016
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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Jim’s point is a good and valid one though.
Often when trawling through the archives I come across court cases where no names are mentioned because the case is ’unsuitable for publication’.
This very often means that the case involves what were termed as ’unnatural practises’ in the LVP, meaning of course homosexuality, however I have found similar circumstances where crimes against children and young adults have been involved; and one suspects then that the perpetrator is a ’gentleman’ with good connection.
It is not at all unusual to find a case of murder in the LVP where the case never reaches the higher courts because the Home Secretary - or Treasury, depending on the year of crime - has issued the dreaded HM’s Pleasure and the murderer has been spirited away to Broadmoor in the middle of the night.
These cases usually only appear hidden away in the index pages of the press of the time.
As a for instance I am trying to track down the criminal proceedings involving one Margaret Messenger, aged 14, who certainly murdered someone, sometime between late 1879 and 1881, but am having not a lot of luck.
I believe she may have been a servant who murdered her master on New Year’s Eve 1879.
Anyways, our old mate, Lyttleton Stewart Forbes Winslow, had something to say about this subject in a letter to The Times, so I’ll send that to Robert and hopefully he will post it. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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Here is a letter from Winslow :
Robert |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 714
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
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Yes, swung for sure.
Stan |
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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Yeah, Jack sounds like the kind of guy who would have enjoyed swinging. The main question would be is he had a female in his life to go wife-swapping with.
Or at least that's what I figured you meant by the question until I read the thread. Hung? Probably. Depends upon how psychotic he was, if at all. I don't he was legally the type who would have been considered unfit to stand trial, and if there were any doubt at all I'm sure they would have tried to go ahead with it anyway for the benefit of the public. Only someone extremely off their rocker (to use the technical term, lol) would have avoided the noose.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 213
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Glad I wasn't the only one to interpret it like that then Dan!...am off to sober up, this is serious stuff, AP is the only one who can make sense whilst drinking. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 690
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
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"Glad I wasn't the only one to interpret it like that then Dan!..."
Oh, you weren't. In fact, I confess I thought the question had to do with bisexuality....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 715
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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If he was Bury, Chapman, Cream or Deeming, he was hung. (No jokes please)
Stan |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
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Hi all,
Not only those four, but if he was H.H.Holmes, Ted Durrant, or if she was Mrs. Pearcey, the Ripper hanged too.
Jeff |
Thomas C. Wescott
Chief Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 502
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:47 am: |
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Was Jack the Ripper a swinger? Tantalizing question. That would go a long way in explaining the cachous and all those smooth pick-up lines (i.e. "Would you?" and "You'd say anything but your prayers"). Maybe he meant to write "I'm down WITH whores" instead of "I'm down ON whores". Hmmm...Good thought, AP.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3018
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 7:54 am: |
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Well I for one do not think Jack would have swung…on the gallows, that is.
With such great champions of murderers as Forbes Winslow around in the LVP, the authorities would have found it very difficult to have simply strung Jack up.
Forbes Winslow was intimately involved in the case of Mrs Maybrick, organising a massive petition to have her freed on the grounds ‘that the verdict was against the weight of evidence’.
Winslow’s opinion and testimony were also instrumental in the sentencing policy at the Saunderson murder trial.
With Forbes Winslow on his side I reckon Jack would have got a room with a view at Broadmoor. |
Thomas C. Wescott
Chief Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 503
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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AP,
But Mrs. Maybrick was likely innocent of her charges. At the very least, there was reasonable doubt. Winslow's championing of her in that case should not translate to him having been a "champion of murderers". If Jack were caught and his guilt proven beyond doubt, Winslow would probably ask to be the one to pull the lever.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Mrs maybrick was never convicted of murdering James.
Innocent til proven guilty
innit!?
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3020
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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Yeah, but, yeah, but...
Winslow's championship of John Mason and Reginald Saunderson - both patently guilty - is without question.
He helped to engineer Saunderson's fairly easy escape from justice.
Remember, Saunderson killed a whore, with no regrets. |
Thomas C. Wescott
Chief Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 506
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Jennifer,
Your naivete is a charming quality.
AP,
I regret to say I'm not familiar with those two cases, though Saunderson's name is familiar.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3397
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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no Tom,
that was sarcasm!
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3399
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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totally intentional error there obviously
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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Lindsey C Hollifield
Chief Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 642
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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Tom,
Jenni is far from naive. She just has this strange affliction called British wit. It's quite a common problem where she lives, I understand. 
Lyn
My first reaction is, "OMG that's crazy". But then I'm thinking this just may be crazy enough to work.
copyright © Bradley McGinnis Sept. 2005
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Thomas C. Wescott
Chief Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 509
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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British wit...is that like 'military intelligence' and 'civil war'? 
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. Jennifer Pegg thinks I'm sexy. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5464
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
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But don't forget, Tom : it's either you or writing that confounded essay.
Robert |
Thomas C. Wescott
Chief Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 512
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
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Yeah, I keep hearing about this essay Jenni's writing - or supposed to be writing. What's it about? Any clues, folks?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
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I think Jenni's essay is about whether Jack was a swinger, or swung both ways, or was hung or something.
Apropos of nothing, I fondly remember going on a business trip down south a few years back with a group of fellow northerners, only to have a coworker, the amateur swing dancer, proudly tell a group of about 30 that she and her husband were swingers and that she recommended it as a fun way to exercise. When the group became offended and others had to step in to clear up the confusion, boy was her face red.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3402
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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its not about anything at the momnt and its due in on weds!
Anyway
"im the king of the swingers the jungle vip -ive reached the top and had to stop and thats whats bothering me..."
...everyone now...
Did i get the words right?
i think he would have swung, wasnt it the case that the Yorkshire Ripper was denied the opp to plead not guilty by way of oh god i cant think of the term!!
(Message edited by jdpegg on December 30, 2005)
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3403
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
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diminished responsibility i did know
A level law was distantly long ago now
Sutcliffe, R v (1981) Boreham J
[Diminished Responsibility – the public interest - jury role]
Peter Sutcliffe, the ‘Yorkshire Ripper’ pleaded diminished responsibility to 13 charges of murder. The medical reports were unanimous in suggesting that he was a paranoid schizophrenic.
Held: The judge decided that it was in the public interest for the jury to decide on the matter. The jury brought in verdicts of murder. This reflects public reaction rather than any clear cut rule of law and it illustrates rather well that in practice medical evidence alone may not be sufficient to ensure the defence.
Guilty
i cant remember the website too though!
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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String
Police Constable
Username: String
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 6:34 am: |
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Jack maybe did swing after all.
Could he have been convicted of another murder or do you think he kept to the same MO?
Was there many people hung at that time for murder?
He did disappear very quickly.
IMO I think he would have use the same MO on women but I would think he was quite capable of killing other people in different ways if necessary. |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 3:30 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Good question. I think I understand your methods a little bit by now.
'I shot an arrow in the air.
It fell to earth I know not where.'
Thus we may learn things. Twenty five years ago I saw part of the trial of Peter Sutcliffe, the 'Yorkshire Ripper' from the Public Gallery, or whatever it's called, at the Old Bailey where the Jack the Ripper trial would have taken place. The whole point of that trial was to get Sutcliffe convicted of murder full stop, which the public wanted, rather than manslaughter due to diminished resposibility which was Sutcliffe's plea. I was witness to a couple of extremely nasty demolitions of evidence by psychiatrists put forward by Sutcliffe's defence team. Governments do what they want. In 1968 I met and talked to Charles Manson, halfway down Topanga Canyon, and he seemed a very nice fellow. The American justice system convicted him of murder even though he was nowhere near the murder scenes. Rule of Law?. What Rule of Law? What Rule of Law for those other people who were just standing around in Afghanistan and are now in Guantanamo Bay?. Governments do what they want and in the Ripper case they did just that. Who or what Jack the Ripper was, was known to the authorities some time between the Kelly and McKenzie murders in my humble opinion and IMHO they didn't want him to swing and therefore he didn't. |
Sergeant Charles Eyton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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Would Jack have swung?
Oh he was a swinger man, yeah baby yeah!
Eyton |
R. A. L.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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Er, sorry to be pedantic, folks:
Pictures are hung
People are hanged. |
Sergeant Charles Eyton
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 8:37 pm: |
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I don't know R.A.L., I'm pretty hung myself.
Not a fan of Eats, Shoots and Leaves are you?
Eyton. |
