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Message |
    
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 925
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:51 am: | 
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If Mary would have gotten enough from Blotchy Face to pay the rent, or at least enough to put something down on it and keep McCarthy happy, then we have more reason to doubt Hutchinson.
She might have been able to command a little more money than the other victims in light of the fact that she was still young and pretty and had her own room.
If she got enough from Blotchy Face to take care of McCarthy one would wonder why she would go out again. It would be one more nail in George Hutchinson's coffin. |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
This scenario assumes that Blotchy Face was a client as opposed to a friend or acquaintence. I tend to favor the latter because of the beer. I would think that someone visiting a prostitute like Mary would want to get right down to business. Time was money for Mary. Would she have had to charge Blotchy Face for the time they spent together regardless of what they were doing? The beer also seems to suggest that it would have been an all night affair if he were a client yet we have GH's statement that she was with the Ashtrakan man later on (to be believed or not).
c.d. |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 111
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
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A very interesting question.
Hi C.D.,
Given that Mary was purportedly desperate to obtain money to pay her rent, isn't it fair to assume that she might have propositioned Blotchy Face? Indeed, it would be churlish in the extreme for a woman in her position to overlook the lure of easy money, as embodied by Blotchy Face.
Ben |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 138
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
Your assumption is reasonable but again it goes back to the nature of their relationship. She might not have felt comfortable propositioning a friend or acquaintence. It also assumes that he had money with him. They might have run into each other somewhere and he might have said "hey, I have just enough money with me to get some beer. Do you want to drink it with me?"
c.d. |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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Hi c.d.
She might not have felt comfortable propositioning a friend or acquaintence.
I really can't envisage Mary Kelly, an impoverished drunken prostitute, feeling "uncomfortable" in such circumstances, nor do I envisage her ever differentiating between "friends" and "potential clients". Blotchy Face could have been both!
I don't understand quite how the "beer" detail indicates an acquaintance as distinct from a client, either.
Just my 2p worth.
Best wishes,
Ben |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 139
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
First of all let me make it clear that Blotchy Face could have been a client, no doubt about it. If, however, he was a friend or an acquaintance, I would expect her to ask him for money before propositioning him. If he replied that he had no money, then propositioning him becomes a moot point.
For some reason (and I agree that it is hardly a good one)to me, the beer thing seems to smack of a whole call girl thing where you spend time with a high class woman and enjoy her company prior to sex. I mean no disrespect to Mary but given the clientele in Whitechapel, I would expect a more "wham bam, thank you mam" approach from a customer. Again, time was money to Mary. I would expect anyone spending non-sexual time with her would have to pay for the privilege. Given the limited means of most people in Whitechapel could Blotchy Face have afforded that? No one knows. She also might have been willing to spend time with him drinking (and not charging him) knowing that she had a wealthy customer, the Ashtrakan man, later on.
c.d. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3452
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi all-
Right-
We know (allegedly) that Mary was 'desperate' for money to pay the rent....odd that she hadn't been that 'desperate' for the earlier three weeks ,or maybe she had been we will never know!
Now,...Enter Mr Blotchy with his can of beer ......with all the info we have,...he seems like a 'friend' of some sort certainly not a 'customer'...leading to the singing (still a lovely image I must say ) and then obviously ,for whatever reason Mary was up and about again for Hutch to meet her at 2 a.m. in Commercial Street etc etc
NOW ,was her earlier sortie merely for food and a drink or five... or business????? We'll never know,Mr Blotchy seems to me to have been a friend who maybe Mary thought she could tap for a few shillings,settled for the beer and lurched out again about 1 ish into history
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3455
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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Had another think here and started a new thread re Mr Blotchy...thinking about it there's actually quite a short period of time involved here
Suzi |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Hi C.d and Suzi,
I certainly agree that, for obvious reasons, Kelly would have insisted upon being paid for her serivces immediately prior to the "event" itself.
The servicing of Blotchy Face might easily have rendered any further outdoor client-hunting supererogatory. If this client had paid her well, she would have comforted herself with the knowledge that she had sufficient funds to pay MCarthy for the rent the very next day - a comfort which may have accounted for the extended session and apparent relaxtion with Blotchy Face.
Certainly, the preponderance of evidence points squarely in the direction of Mary Kelly having retired to bed shortly after dispatching her last client, Blotchy Face, rather than venturing out again. The clothes-folding rigmarole, for example, is hardly consistent with the actions of a prostitute preperatory to servicing her client.
Sarah Lewis, who entered the Court at 2:30am, never referred to any noise outside No.13 as she passed by that morning, and neither did Elizabeth Prater. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly was virtually incapable of venturing out.
Ben |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
Wouldn't the police have asked McCarthy how much Mary owed on her rent? I would think that they would have had a pretty good idea of how much someone like Mary could make from one client. That would have given them at least some idea of whether she would have had to have serviced someone else besides Blotchy Face.
As far as an intruder being Mary's killer, don't you think that the police would have examined the area outside of Mary's window for indications that someone stood outside of it and reached in to unlatch the door?
c.d. |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Hi C.D.,
With reference to your second paragraph, bear in mind that the November drisle and damp would all but exponge any trace of a footprint outside the window. Would a footprint be discernible upon a stone floor anyway?
Ben
(Message edited by BenH on December 23, 2005) |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 145
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 1:41 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
When I wrote that second paragraph I wasn't sure what the surface was, dirt or stone, so I attempted to word it so that it encompassed everything, i.e., footprints, bits of glass broken off the window, blood or bits of cloth on the window etc. Remember that it was dark and an intruder would probably have spent some time making sure that Mary was asleep and that his actions didn't wake her.
c.d. |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 117
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Hi c.d.,
I would suggest that JTR would have to have been a clumsy operator indeed if he allowed blood or cloth to be desposited on the window. Any glass fragments outside the window could easily be attributable to remnants from the initial smash.
Ben |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
It was dark. How could Jack have known if he left blood or cloth deposited on the window?
c.d
By the way, I started a thread on Chapman being a surgeon's apprentice. I think that constitutes quite a coincidence. I would be interested in getting your opinion. |
Ben Holme
Detective Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 118
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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Hi c.d.,
Let us just clarify the blood on the window snenario. Do you mean his blood or Kelly's? If the former, the ripper would certainly have been aware that he had cut himself, dark or not. Certainly, he would not have used the window to exit Miller's Court, so Kelly's blood need not have gone anywhere near the window.
I'll investigate the Chapman thread! |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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Hi Ben,
I mean the Ripper's blood. I'm not talking about a huge gash just a small cut. I think everyone has had the experience of being involved in some physical activity only to notice some blood on a finger or arm later on.
c.d. |
jason_connachan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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Mary is more likely to have spent Blotchy's money on more drink. |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 2:30 am: |
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In reference to the first post:
If she got enough from Blotchy Face to take care of McCarthy one would wonder why she would go out again. It would be one more nail in George Hutchinson's coffin.
Even if George Hutchinson was lying through the smug gaunt face that laughs at us through history and was the bastard that killed Kelly, he could still have had a long and lengthy chat with Mary about her hopeless situation before he planted a knife in her neck.
Wintergreen |
