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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 935
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 3:56 pm: | 
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Helge, you wrote:
Phil... I don't give you enough compliments, I know!...Your post about "suspect types" was also good... etc...
HELP, everyone!! Helge has been kidnapped by aliens and a substitute has been left in her place!!
Phil |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 386
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Phil,
Darn, you found out!
Ok, the ransom is substantial, we, the people of Alpha Centauri demand to know the real identity of the Ripper!
By the way, Helge is male...we think.
All fine members of this cyberspace fora, this is our terms:
Normal postings by your member will resume once the thruth have been told, you all agree that the GSG is genuine, and that MJK was a ripper victim.
By the way, if you also throw in the identity of the man on the grassy knoll and a quarter pounder (Fresh, McDonalds), we might consider keeping this lunatic!
What will it be?
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 764
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
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Hi Helge,
"And the entire tossing of apron/writing of graffito would take less than half a minute. Even if he was a slow writer."
Thanks for thinking of me here!
"Of course, Warren was far too clever to fall for that. And the riot never happened."
I've always had the impression that Warren was too afraid for a second 'Bloody Sunday' (I believe he even got death threats after the 'first') - and perhaps rightfully so. I cannot help thinking that in his explanation to the Home Office (no one else would have read the letter and no one there had actually seen the writing) he sort of casually 'placed' the writing on the door jamb, as to give extra support for his reason for having the graffito erased.
"Or maybe he only got the idea to write something after he sucessfully "planted" the apron."
I know you're only playing with some ideas here, but why would he have taken the rag in the first place, then?
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 765
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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Hi Helge,
"And the entire tossing of apron/writing of graffito would take less than half a minute. Even if he was a slow writer."
Thanks for thinking of me here! 
"Of course, Warren was far too clever to fall for that. And the riot never happened."
I've always had the impression that Warren was too afraid for a second 'Bloody Sunday' (I believe he even got death threats after the 'first') - and perhaps rightfully so. I cannot help thinking that in his explanation to the Home Office (no one else would have read the letter and no one there had actually seen the writing) he sort of casually 'placed' the writing on the door jamb, as to give extra support for his reason for having the graffito erased.
"Or maybe he only got the idea to write something after he sucessfully "planted" the apron."
I know you're only playing with some ideas here, but why would he have taken the rag in the first place, then?
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 766
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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Well Monty, what can I say?
When you're roughly right, you're roughly right, right?
Now go tease someone else, you moron... uhm sorry, I mean, you bored one!
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 767
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Hey, how did that happen (those twin posts), or rather, how did I do that?
Sorry!
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 387
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:02 am: |
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Frank,
You have a good point there about Warren. I agree that he might very well have wished to exaggerate things a bit.
But then we must look at the context. Just because we argue about where the graffito was today, does not mean it was unknown to a great deal of people back then.
Would Warren risk the wrath of his superiors telling lies or even half thruths?
I don't know, to be honest, but I don't think so. If he was a bit out of luck someone might have heard otherwise...and someone might have asked some questions...and he would be in a very awkward position to say the least!
But you are IMO absolutely right in assuming that Bloody Sunday must have been on Warren's mind. I think that without Bloody Sunday the graffito might not have been wiped out at all.
And that might have yielded some interesting results.
About the graffito/rag. Well, my basic idea is that Jack simply got the idea to plant a false "clue". He could have done that in many ways, but choose to go to a street that, during the day, was dominated by Jewish vendors. It was part of the Petticoat Lane type of businesses. It was not, as such, IMO, a "random" street. He tosses the apron in a doorway to some Jewish tenement buildings.
Random choice?
Maybe, but I don't think so.
Anyway, what I think he did, was to plant a "spoor" for the police to follow. They would, perhaps, fall for that, and it would soon be reported (he hoped) that the police was now pursuing information that a Jew was the culprit.
Outrage! People rioting, burning down synagogues and beating up Jews on the street. Maybe. At least the simmering anti-Semitism would have been greatly fueled.
Now, in my mind, writing that graffito was not really clever in the sense that it would fool the police much. Nor does it fool most Ripperologists. We all think it is "odd". We all wonder, what the heck was he thinking about? Or we dismiss it.
But what rumours would it not fuel among the general population? That is the clever bit, IMO. Jack knew it would hint at Jews and blame, and the rest would come by itself.
But, as you see, the main point here is the apron. And had the police been so stupid as to publicly say they now was looking for a Jew living in Goulston Street... Well, riots or no riots, the public opinion would for a very long time be that Jack was in fact a Jew.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 388
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:27 am: |
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Glenn,
You are absolutely correct, without the apron, the graffiti would have been wiped out by some local people, and we would probably never have heard about it.
But that proves nothing, because the apron was there. And we just have to disagree on whether that was pure chance or by design.
My point is that either Jack threw the apron away randomly, or he would have tried to hide it so as not the police could track his movements, or he could take it home, or he could have had "plans".
He did not take it home. He did not hide it. It would be in plain sight of a number of people at daytime, even if it was not found by a PC.
So maybe he tossed it away randomly. But why then not simply in the middle of the street? If he did not care whether it was found or not, why on earth bother to toss it below a staircase?
Anyone will instantly know that this would make the police search those tenement houses.
So maybe, just maybe that was in his mind. Can you agree on that, if we keep the graffito out of it?
So, if he knew the houses would be searched, he was also aware of the fact that the police would perhaps be "tricked". How much he really thought about this, I can't say. But I think he was aware of it.
And maybe he just got the idea to "enhance" that little game a bit.
As to there being other graffiti. I'm positively sure that if there had been more graffiti in that particular stairwell it would have been mentioned. I'm even pretty sure that if there had been other graffiti on the building it would have been mentioned.
Sure, there might have been graffiti in that part of London. But it most probably would have a very short life-span before being wiped out. This was before the age of the spray-can.
And, hey, I'm NOT saying it was a big thing for Jack. That is assuming too much. But he did carry the apron!
Again, about letters. He COULD have sent the apron. Or half a kidney, or an ear... But I don't think he did (although maybe, just maybe, the kidney) He could have done a number of things that we can come up with now in hindsight. But he did what he did, and we can't change that!
Maybe he did not think like you, Glenn. And in a way, that should be a relief!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 389
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:41 am: |
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One more thing
If Jack used both hands to rip, tear and handle internal organs, both his hands should have been smeared with blood an faeces.
I think it is probable that he used both hands. One to hold the knife, one to grab.
Now, this poses an intriguing question. How could there then be smudges only on one side of the apron?
It's not really possible, is it?
So I propose that he must have cleaned his hands on something else althogether!
After all, if he planned his kills, he probably also planned how to clean his hands without relying on any cut apron.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4061
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:02 am: |
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Hi Helge,
Well, personally I think we are beginning to jump too deep into speculations now, too far away from available facts. All that remins now is guess-work and that has never appealed to me. But let me just address some points, based on my beliefs, interpretations and my own personal logic:
"My point is that either Jack threw the apron away randomly, or he would have tried to hide it so as not the police could track his movements, or he could take it home, or he could have had "plans"."
If he threw away the apron randomly - as I believe - then it only confirms my opinion that he was a rather disorganised killer. And a disorganised killer rarely indulge in schemes or planning. He does what he has to do and work from instinct without too much rational thinking, while other categories of killers are more rational. Dropping a piece of evidence like that is not a rational act.
I guess that you instead see it as an act he made deliberately, but as I said - if he wanted to play tricks with the police and leave clues, then he could have done other more effective things. You say: "Yes, but that is what he did and there is nothing we can do about it." True, but it is nevertheless important to point out, that if his intention -- note the word IF (I am playing with the idea here) -- was to plant it there deliberately as a message in itself or as an additional item in connection with a message he'd written, then it is relevant to question ourselves why he didn't use other more effective and much simpler methods, not to mention less risky. We MUST ask ourselves that question, because it puts doubt upon the whole idea.
"But why then not simply in the middle of the street? If he did not care whether it was found or not, why on earth bother to toss it below a staircase?"
It is dangerous to say, that it was tossed beneath the staircase, because relevant research shows that it just as well could have been at the entrance of the building and therefore nearly on the pavement.
I think the most logical solution is that he, when he felt he had laid enough distance behind him, went into the entrance or passage of the building and took shelter while he for example wiped his knife. That is why it wasn't found in the middle of the street. Furthermore, he could have thrown it into the entrance from the street - it is fair to assume that he might have run alongside the housewalls and not in the middle of the street.
Sometimes the answers doesn't have to be too complicated, you know.
"So maybe, just maybe that was in his mind. Can you agree on that, if we keep the graffito out of it?"
Well, I can't rule it out, of course, but personally, no I don't really agree with that. I don't think he placed it there deliberately. In my mind he took the piece of apron for practical reasons and dropped it when he was finished with it. It's as simple as that. But that is my opinion.
"As to there being other graffiti. I'm positively sure that if there had been more graffiti in that particular stairwell it would have been mentioned. I'm even pretty sure that if there had been other graffiti on the building it would have been mentioned."
Well, I never said that there were other graffito on the same building or in the same entrance.
"Sure, there might have been graffiti in that part of London. But it most probably would have a very short life-span before being wiped out."
Yes, but as you may know, this particular one appeared to be rather fresh - probably the same evening or night. That's why this one still was there.
As for the hand cleaning, that is impossible to say and we just have too little information about this. We must remember that since the blood flow was cut off before the actual mutilations, we wouldn't see the same amount of blood anyway as if they were ripped open alive. But yes, I would assume some amount of blood or matter should stain his hands. But then again, I have heard slaughterers say, that they can do the same thing with animals and practically remain spotless, also on the hands. So that is very much an open debate, and I am not prepared to go there, since I don't have the practical experience.
And no, I definitely don't think Jack the Ripper planned his crimes. I guess he had some ideas of what he should do, but they are not 'planned' in the correct meaning of the word.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on September 27, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 4:55 am: |
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Hello Howard
A very nice dissertation and amiss of me not to have seen it earlier. It would have save me having to clean off the wall at work and tricky questions about why I am writing about Jews on the back wall of the building.
In my mind, I still cant see a man in a hurry with sticky hands (I appreciate the discussion on the other thread about hands wiping/aprons but I assuming he did wipe his hands on the apron and in that case I imagine they would still be a bit sticky) stopping to write something.
As to the size of th ewriting.
There was a suggestion made at the site to obliterate the first line I think and get the rest photographed. That implies to me that the writing was large enough to remove one line and leave the rest (that the lines were reasonably well separated). But at the same time, the police waited to get a sponge or something to wip it off.
Surely a couple of gobs of spit and a quick swipe with a sleeve would have rendered the graffiti illegible if it was as small as is described? Maybe not removed it totally but definitely smudged it out.
What does anyone think about Stephensons suggestion that the Juwes word was actually Juives?
Mr P. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 10:17 am: |
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Greetings
Having just being reading the dissertation mentioned above, I wandered over to the ripperologist section and was browsing the covers.
Just out of interest does anyone know where I can get a reasonable size electronic version of the picture on the front of issue Ripperologist No. 34: April 2001 ?
I appreciate it may be copyrighted and if so...oh well.
Cheers
mr P |
RIpperstudent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
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Hi i am an english language student who is currently invesigating the ripper letters and the graffito linguistically. I would just like to ask everyones opinion on why 'jack' spelt 'jews' as 'Juwes' |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 758
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 10:27 am: |
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Lars,
Just let your fingers do a little walking and click on Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito > Juwes or Juives and you will find a lengthy thread devoted to just what you asked about.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 391
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Glenn,
Yes, but don't you see, the very fact that the writing was fresh decreases the likelihood of a coincidence?
However, I will agree that my scenario is speculation, if you agree yours is. We both use the same facts and come to different conclusions.
Besides, whether it was at the bottom of the staircase, or at the entrance is irrelevant. The point is, it was not anywhere else, It pointed to a specific building.
We have several "coincidences" here.
And that is not speculation, it is a fact.
On the other hand, I must say that I think you are correct in that Jack probably did not plan his crimes all that much. What I was getting at was that perhaps out of experience he now knew he had to bring along something to wipe his hands with.
That is planning, but it's not like he had a fully developed plan. He probably winged it for the most part, and you know by now that I feel the entire apron/graffiti "plan" was actually just winging it as well.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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Helge,
Its back to the question of fresh.
How fresh is fresh?
10 mins ago, 1 hour, 5 hours, 1 day....can someone please define fresh for me within the context of the writing.....please?
Many thanks,
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 394
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
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Yes, Monty, you are right.
But this time it was Glenn pointing to the fresness of it all!
It bears no impact on my reasoning whatsoever. The point for me is that it most probably had not been there for days. Statistically the coincidence becomes more of a coincidence if it was indeed written that same evening. Obviously, one might say...
Preferably (to make me correct) at the time Jack visited the street, but there is no way to prove that!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 769
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:32 pm: |
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Hi Helge,
"So maybe he tossed it away randomly. But why then not simply in the middle of the street? If he did not care whether it was found or not, why on earth bother to toss it below a staircase?"
It's very feasible that Jack was in a hurry, it's quite possible that he was aware he was risking his neck. So instead of taking time to actually hide it from anyone's view, he might have thrown the incriminating thing in the first suitable place that he hurriedly passed after it had served its purpose, whatever that was.
That turned out to be a rather dark entrance. He might have thought that would do the trick: at that time of night it would probably not be found that easily and would give him sufficient time to reach his lodgings undisturbed.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 396
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Frank,
Yes, that is the other possibility
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:21 am: |
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Howdy Donald S.
Sorry about that but this website is getting so big (and dare I say it, chaotic in places) that its getting easy to miss things.
But I appreciate the directions.
Mr P |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2157
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:38 am: |
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Hi Frank,
Sorry to be so late replying. I’ve only just caught up with this thread.
You asked me:
If Jack the Graffitist was so set on redirecting the blame on the Jews, if that was so much on his mind, why did he write "will not be" instead of "were not" or even "are not"?
Well I think it may be a matter of language here.
‘Will not be’ in this context may imply ‘refuse to be’, which is of course quite different from ‘were not’ or ‘are not’.
If Jack was Jewish, he did himself no favors by leaving the apron where he did, and beneath that particular message (whether he knew it was there or not).
If Jack wasn’t Jewish, I would expect him to have been more than happy when the press and public tried to pin the blame on a Jew - Leather Apron - and a little vexed when this suspect was cleared. This would be the case regardless of his general feelings about Jews. Shifting the blame wherever and however possible is a classic trait of serial killers, whatever their politics may be.
Therefore, if a non-Jewish Jack didn’t write the message, and didn’t realise it was there when he randomly discarded the apron half, he unwittingly helped to maintain the focus on Jews. I can’t recall what Anderson thought about the graffito (was it he who talked about a valuable clue that was erased?), but he certainly concluded that the man who dropped the apron beneath it was a Jew.
Love,
Caz
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