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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2505
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 11:35 am: | 
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As I've now found a couple of references where men intent on murdering women have quoted the crimes of the Whitechapel Murderer, I thought it would be useful to keep a record by starting a thread.
May 20th 1889.
Henry Charles, 22, Hairdresser - attempted murder upon his sister, Caroline - tells witnesses 'I mean to have her life, and I will serve her worse than the Whitechapel Murderer did.'
At the time he had a formidable knife in each hand.
This took place in the East End of London. |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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AP.
There is also this one that I found at the London Met archives:
Lunatic Reception Orders in the Bromley District. The book was called "Orders for Reception of Pauper Patients", 3/6/1886 - 17/6/1889.
Thomas Murray. Admitted June 8, 1889. Age 30. Single. No occupation, previously: "Bottler". Residence: 11 Burdett St, Devons Rd E. Supposed cause: Sexual and alcoholic excesses. Duration of existing attack: 3 months. Dangerous to others? Yes.
Facts indicating insanity observed by myself: "He is very suspicious and says he hears voices when alone. Says his neighbors call him "Jack the Ripper" and ask is he not dead yet. Says if he were a scholar he would send them writing to where the voices come from asking him to stop (as a matter of fact his neighbors do not annoy him. nor does anyone call him names)"
Other Facts (if any) indicating Insanity communicated to me by others: "His sister Ann Murray states that he is dangerous to live with as he has repeatedly threatened to kill and strike her mother and self. He throws the furniture about, believing that people are calling him names. He rushes into the street occasionally and threatens violence to children passing by, thinking that they have been calling him Jack the Ripper." |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2506
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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Nice one, Robert. Many thanks.
I'll see if I can find a bit more on the lad, he sounds very interesting.
Meanwhile here is an absolute maniac from 'The County of London Sessions', August 13th 1889.
William Wallace Brodie is in court for simple theft when he suddenly goes absolutely crazy, attempting to strike witness and having to be restrained by warders of the court, while screaming out:
'I am in for the murder of Alice Mackenzie... a company has been formed to take me around the country in an iron cage to show me as the Whitechapel Murderer.'
He was detained for further medical examination. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4973
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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AP, I posted this a while ago :
Oct 1st 1888
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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A.P.
There is quite a lot of information on this Brodie on the Casebook, in various press reports from July and August 1889.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 1:47 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Robert, I somehow missed that first time around; and in my own search.
As summons were granted in several cases then more cases may well turn up.
I'll look out for them as I time travel.
Chris
thanks for that. I'll read through them.
I know sometimes there might be repeats in our strange viewing, and I do apologise for my own. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4974
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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Quite a late one this. Nov 8th 1978
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4975
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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I should add the boy was acquitted on 10th.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4976
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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Sept 14th 1888
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2509
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Brilliant stuff, Robert.
I came across the Jap when I was doing the murders, but as it was not considered an attempt at murder I didn't dwell on the case.
The more modern case is very disturbing.
Must read up on it.
While you are obviously in the mood, there is a case from October 10th 1888 involving a George Henderson; and have you ever come across the almighty Berner Street fracas of November 13th, 1888?
What a riot that is.
Jacks all over the place. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4977
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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AP, yes, Henderson is interesting from the HMP point of view.
What's that about a fracas on Nov 13th?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4978
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 4:51 pm: |
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I'm re-posting this one 13th Sept 88. They came down on this guy like a ton of feathers.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 643
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Hi AP, Robert
There was John Stevenson who attacked and stabbed a woman in Glasgow.
../4927/20134.html"#C6C6B5"> |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2510
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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'At MARLBOROUGH-STREET, WILLIAM AVENELL, 26, chimney sweep, Adam and Eve-court Oxford-street; and FREDERICK W. MOORE, 28, carver and gilder, Carlisle-street, Soho, were charged with being disorderly and with assaulting Henry Edward Leeke, an oil and colour man, of Gilbert-street, Oxford-street, on Saturday night. Leeke said that on Saturday evening about 5 o'clock he went into a publichouse at the corner of a street when several persons accosted him. The prisoners accused him of being "Jack the Ripper," and told him that they were detectives in private clothes, and that they should arrest him as the Whitechapel murderer. They took him outside and dragged him in a brutal manner through Castle-street as far as Newman-passage. They struck him with a stick, and he implored them not to be so brutal. They would not let him go, they said, until they knew who he was and where he had been. He told them he had just delivered two gallons of oil at 62, Berners-street, whereupon they said they would take him back and ascertain whether his statement was true. He resisted as well as he could, and they struggled in the streets together for about three quarters of an hour. Many persons stopped and looked at them, and when the prisoners called out "He is Jack the Ripper, we are detectives," they walked away and did not attempt to render him assistance. He therefore got no protection, and was shaken and bruised until he felt quite disabled. When he got near 62, Berners-street, he managed to get away from his assailants, and sprang down the steps of that house into the basement, got into the kitchen, and lost sight of his pursuers for a few moments. A number of young women were at tea in the room, and when Avenell followed and told them they had a strange man in the house, and that he (Avenell) was a private detective, they became very much frightened and screamed for the police. Avenell finding the prosecutor dragged him up the stairs, exclaiming, "He's Jack the Ripper." Madame Muntz, the landlady of 62, Berners-street, deposed that the man Leeke had been in the habit of bringing oil, soap, wood, and other articles to the house, and she therefore knew him. She sent for a constable, and Avenell was taken into custody. Leeke became so unwell after the affair that he had to take to his bed. In defence, Avenell said that he and his friends were in the publichouse when they saw Leeke sitting in a corner. He had his head down, and was mumbling something to himself. As he seemed strange in his manner they asked him what was the matter, and he replied, "Do not bother me; I am in serious trouble." They asked him whether they should see him home, and when he told them he lived at 62, Berners-street, he (Avenell) doubted it, as he did the chimney-sweeping there, and knew that it was only occupied by women. He therefore expressed his intention of taking Leeke to the house to ascertain whether that statement was correct. On reaching the house Leeke ran down the steps into the basement and shouted to the inmates, "There's a strange man in the house." He (Avenell) followed, and finding Leeke crouching in the cellar, dragged him out. Madame Muntz and all the young women began to scream, until one of them, recognizing the prosecutor, exclaimed, "Why it is our little oilman," and then they became less excited. The prisoner Moore said that when he descended the steps he tried to pacify the young women by telling them that the affair was only a foolish joke. Constable Downey, 364 D, said that he saw Avenell holding the prosecutor outside the house in Berners-street. Avenell called out, "Here he is; I have got him. This is Jack the Ripper; I mean to take him to the police-station," adding, with a coarse expression, "If the police cannot do their duty I can." Being asked who he was, Avenell said he was a private detective. The prisoner Moore ran out of the house, and was pursued and taken into custody. The prosecutor was sober, but the prisoner Avenell had been drinking. A witness for the defence was called who stated that when the prosecutor entered the publichouse some one exclaimed, "Here is a funny little man; perhaps he is Jack the Ripper." On being questioned Leeke said his name was Smith, and that he was a tin plate worker. That statement being doubted it was resolved to ascertain who and what he was; and in this way the affair began. Mr. Hannay said it was a very dangerous thing for people to personate detectives, and directed Inspector Ettridge to see whether the prisoners could not be further charged with that offence. Very serious results might have arisen out of the affair, which required further inquiry, and he would therefore adjourn the case for a week, allowing bail in the sum of £10 for each of the prisoners.'
That one, Robert.
I bet you transcribed that yourself! |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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A.P.
Thanks for that interesting story - though it does seem to be set in Berners Street, off Oxford St, not in Berner Street in the East End.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2511
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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What's a 's' between friends, Chris?
A lot I agree.
Sorry about that.
Still a good little riot though. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 957
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Robert,Chris,A.P. all...
Look at the comment that the woman in Robert Charles' post above [ the September 13th excerpt ] made to her husband.
That he was like "Leather Apron".
This is particularly interesting in that the excerpt may NOT have been from the previous day [ Sept. 12th ] and like some stories I've seen the Chazzter post, the stories were from two or more days previous to their appearance in print...
Leather Apron was first identified or considered deserving of a ring up by the police on the 9th,correct ?
In this brief amount of time [ maybe even one day ! ] Leather Apron's name had entered the mainstream as a bogeyman ...Fascinating...
Nice work Robert...as per usual. |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 644
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
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Hi A.P
Yes, I transcribed several articles on the case. It's a very interesting one as it possibly shows how careful (or lucky) Jack was not to get caught.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4979
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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I'm sorry, everyone, but I just can't resist posting this pure Python piece.
Nov 24th 1898
Robert |
Crimes of Passion
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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Wolf,
Do you have any more info on Henry Charles?
Yours, Crimes. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2520
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 1:42 pm: |
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I'm afraid I have not been able to discover much about Henry Charles, not even his eventual punishment.
However what I do know was that he was also charged with a violent offence against the police officer who actually prevented him from carrying out his threats to murder his sister.
From the court evidence it does appear as if his family was attempting to lessen the degree of his attack by claiming that Henry had been 'bitten by a dog earlier in the year, which had affected his mind, making him excitable... and then he barked like a dog'.
He should have howled. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4989
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
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In looking for info on Henry Charles I found another Ripper reference.
July 1st 1889
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2521
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
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Nice one, Robert.
The more references we find to such incidents, then the more nails we have in the guns when it comes to banging down a few coffins.
There is a massive reference to Jack on the 20th July 1889 where entire Whitechapel is up in arms over 'The Attack on a Woman in Whitechapel', but as it is already referenced in the press section I haven't bothered with it.
Perhaps we should. |
Crimes of Passion
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:14 am: |
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Thanks for the reply, Wolf. P.S. I like your style!
Erm, it seems to me that this man Charles may have been brought up on a trumped up charge really for assaulting the Police Officer. Shouldn't he have been charged with threatening behaviour, disturbing the peace or something like that? Maybe he did get put in an assylum for a period of time after the defence by his family.
Thanks again, Crimes. |
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