| Author |
Message |
    
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 340
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 5:10 am: | 
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Sorry to hog the poster boards.
But I cannot resist commenting on three of the Easr End photos above.
You can't help noticing some interesting little things in those photos.
For instance, the boy on the left in Phillip's anti-German protester arrest photo.He has hastened out in such a hurry to join the excitement, he has forgotten his belt!
The arrested party, despite being without his hat, has a smug look of triumph on his face -if not of righteous indignation mixed with triumph- because someone has given him a cigarette!
An almost religious -painting tableau in my opinion.(The way the principals are arrayed).
As for Robert's two John Galt photos, bearing in mind how long it took for photos to be set up,the group in Little Collingwood Street includes the long-suffering family dog, held by his master in a "begging" pose, despite his master being more interested in looking at the camera.
In the "Cat's meat Man" photo, it is interesting to see the now-fading bunting with "E" and "R" up high on the wall, and a bundled Union Jack to the left of the upstairs window.
No doubt, left-overs from some Royal occasion involving King Edward (his coronation?) in 1902. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 483
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Hi John
A very interesting man Frederick Charrington, he's not quite as well known as Reverend Barnett or Dr Barnardo. He wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty and getting stuck into the crime and vice in the East End, being rescued from attack on numerous occasions by the police.
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 306
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
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Hi John.
I shall try to upload some new shots for you tomorrow. I recently bought A COCKNEY CAMERA (you got this one, Rob?) and it has a few smashing shots in it, inlcuding Poplar Workhouse (isn't that where John Stride died?) and a smashing 1870s photo of flotsam & jetsom outside a Whitechapel pub (which is perfectly composed in my view).
Plenty still to come, I assure you!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 485
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 5:29 am: |
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Hi Philip,
I haven't got "A Cockney Camera". I have been tempted to get it a couple of times but never got round to it.
I did pick up a couple of excellent books from 'Stamfords' the other day.
"East Ender' Postcards" a collection of 200 archive postcards from Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Aldgate, Stepney, Poplar and Bethnal Green.
"The City of London" a collection of 200 photographs from 1860 to 1960. This book contains several photos of Petticoat Lane.
Both books are £12.99 and great value.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 512
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 6:11 am: |
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Heres a couple of photos of Duval Street from 1960.
and this is the entrance to the Crossinghams Lodging House which was opposite Millers Court
Rob |
Joan Taylor.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 8:21 am: |
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Particularly lovely contribution Rob as usual. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us where you got the pictures on this occasion.  |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 513
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
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Hi Joan
They are from 'Real-Life Crimes and how they were solved' one of those part-work publications. It was issue number 73.
The issue itself didn't give photo credits so I don't know where they came from.
Just for info, the photos were used to illustrate an article on the murder of Selwyn Cooney in February 1960.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 607
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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Hi
Found this drawing of Millers Court from December 1898. It is not very good as it is a photocopy from a micro film.
It's from "The Illustrated Police Budget" December 10 1898
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 611
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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That is superb, Rob!
Curious to note how wrong the archway is. Am I right in assuming though it is broad as built inside the Court, it is very narrow at the front (3 feet, as we know) and the archway was built into the broad one so the broad one is no more than a decorative feature, yet offset?
Does that make sense?
Where do you get these things?!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 608
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Strangely, I think I know what you mean. The arch was three feet wide from beginning to end and there looks like a broader arch covering over this one at the back, only a very slight one though, about the width of a brick I guess.
It is strange how the artist made it so wide considering everything else looks right.
I try and find out if there are any other events connected with 'Ripper' sites and check papers which might have illustrations or photos. The above picture related to Elizabeth Roberts murder by her sister Kate Marshall in Elizabeth Praters old room. There is a lurid illustration of the room from 1909 (the murder of Kitty Ronan), which is obviously not very accurate but I'll post it when I get it. Strange thing is a digital scan of that picture only set me back a couple of quid because they had a bound volume there at Colindale, but if I wanted a digital scan of the Miller Court picture I just posted it will cost me over £20 because it is kept off site and may be in poor condition.
Rob |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 813
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
Interesting find there...
It's kind of hard to see, but does it happen to show a second door in the archway as some have suggested was there to go to a stairway to the floor above Mary's room? As far as I know that's the only illustration created from an angle that would be likely to see it. There's a dark spot there but I don't know it that's door or noise.
The building in the foreground on the left might also be a first at least as far as depictions go.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 609
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 3:49 am: |
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Hi Dan,
There does look like a second door in the drawing. I'm sure I have read descriptions of Millers Court that this was the way to get to the room above Kellys.
Rob |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 415
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 7:26 am: |
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Hello Robert and Phil,
Interesting the discoveries you are making. Using later crimes/events at Ripper sites is a good way to turn up fresh views.Nice work.
I have recently been going back over Daniel Farson's career.(His obituary from the Daily Telegraph is posted on these boards).
As well as knowing Francis Bacon, Colin Wilson and Lucien Freud, not only was Farson patted on the head as a good-looking Aryan boy by Adolph Hitler, but he was allegedly a fine, sensitive photographer.
After acquiring a barge-builders yard and house in Narrow Street Limehouse, Farson took lots of photos of the old dockland area. And Whitechapel. He was becoming more interested in the Ripper crimes.
Have either of you turned up any books of photos of the East End by Daniel Farson (taken around 1959-64)?
I would be interested to know if he captured any timely photos of since-demolished Ripper murder sites. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 612
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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John - this is a very interesting point and one worth looking into.
Rob - I was actually referring to, for example, the famed IPN image of MJK admitting JTR which shows a large archway at the back which has been half cut across with a wall with a window in it at the back of #27. It was also shown the same way in a later IPN drawing. It makes me wonder if the narrow arch at the front was always that narrow or if the brickwork at the back was changed, or if indeed part of #27 was extended into the archway.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 610
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
I thought that is what you meant. Anyway the archway in the drawing above must be wrong as the archway is far to wide and it goes right through to Dorset Street. I don't know what the illustrator was thinking of.
Hi John,
Dan Farson wrote a book "Limehouse days" which had a couple of chapters on Jack, but unfortunately he doesn't publish any photos of the murder sites. I don't think he published any other books on the East End, which is a shame.
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 6:37 pm: |
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Hi guys
This alleged second doorway would be in exactly the right place for external access to the stairway which ran immediately behind Kelly's room, just behind the partition wall visible in the famous photo. I am attaching part of a contemporary plan of Millers Court which clearly shows where this stairway was.
 |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 614
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Thanks Chris.
At the risk of being an arrogant sod, this is what I had always thought and had suggested. My question about the wider archway still exists though. Why was it wide at the back when a building cut through half of it?
Had the back of #27 been demolished by 1898?
This is never ending!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 417
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
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Hello Robert and Philip,
Thanks for the comment and information on Daniel Farson's possible Whitechapel photographs from 1959 to the early 1960's.
Of course, his eponymous "Jack The Ripper" did have a few photos of the Ripper sites. But, as far as I can see, none by Farson. Which is very strange, given his snapological prowess and the fact his interest in the Ripper murders was prompted by bicycle tours of Whitechapel with famous Ripper author, Colin Wilson.
I'm betting Wilson would know if any important site photos by Farson exist undiscovered.
Chris,
That is a very interesting contemporary sketch-plan of Millers Court, where did that come from? Is it a Coroners sketch-plan?
Philip (again),
The original LLOYDS WEEKLY NEWS article by George R Sims of 22 September 1907, had some rudimentary sketches of the canonical sites.These are not shown in the Press Section of Casebook.I will try to locate my copy and see if the Millers Court sketch reveals any more about your archway, stairs and upstairs room. |
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 8:16 am: |
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George,
The back of number 27 was demolished in 1928 along with the whole block. If you are refering to the dwellings in the court itself, I think they were in existance well into the 20th century. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 616
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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Hi Greg.
This then means we have a question as to why Rob's illustration above shows an archway we know existed bereft of the building which filled its right half.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
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Phil, sorry got the name wrong last time, I thought it was a coincidence!!
Regarding the sketch above, I guess it's like the police sketch at the time of the Kelly murder, that is a general impression of the scene and not a truely accurate drawing.
http://www.casebook.org/victims/mary_jane_kelly.html
The link above shows the sketch I mean, if you notice on the sketch, you will see a large supporting arch with the passage way located on the left hand side of the supporting arch.
I would guess therefore that he drew the sketch from memory some time later, but of course I wasn't there so don't really know! |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 617
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 4:28 am: |
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Indeed, Greg. However, you will find that it is not just one illustration that shows the back of #27 cutting through half the archway so we're no nearer ending the mystery.
My money is on the wider archway being linked to Gull.
No.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 612
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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Hi all,
I've got this coloured postcard of Petticoat Lane the other day.
And these are some shots I took yesterday of the Church Passage (now St James Passage) entrance to Mitre Square. The red building part of Sir John Cass school was built in 1908.
This is Mitre Street looking towards Mitre Square
And this I took last month of the Whitechapel Washhouses (just the front framework of it exists now) in Old Castle Street just a few feet from where Alice McKenzie was found.
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 619
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
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Hi Rob
I didn't know the wash house was still there. I never go down the actual street. Nice!
The views of Mitre Square and Mitre Street remind me I am going to be there in a couple of hours with another group of tourists. Thanks for making me take my work home with me. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 614
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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I didn't know the wash house was still there. I never go down the actual street. Nice!
You should be ashamed. It's just the shell of the building thats left, the front portion that is. It is great that they kept it and not demolished it. It's actually painted grey. It just turned out blue the photo.
Have fun.
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Google threw up another photo of the same building, on a site run by the Pevsner Architectural Guides:
http://www.lookingatbuildings.org.uk/default.asp?Document=3.S.2.2,2&Image=856
And it has a small photo of what it looked like before "reconstruction":
http://www.lookingatbuildings.org.uk/default.asp?Image=211&gst
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Hi John
Here is the complete plan. I will look up the source and let you know
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2146
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Here is the actual size plan of Kelly's room. I have no idea what the cross in a circle signifies - any ideas?
 |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 620
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 7:33 pm: |
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Chris - wasn't that the washstand?
PHILIP
PS : Or the location of Mr Diddles when MJK was found perhaps.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 418
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 5:29 am: |
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Yes Chris Scott,
Thanks for the enlarged and also the detailed
versions of the plans of Marie J. Kelly's room.
I wonder if the circle with the cross in the middle might not be the circular tub, which (if I'm not mistaken) was glimpsed under the bed in one photo? If so, obviously moved?
I'll look forward to learning the source of this interesting drawing. Which I have not seen before. |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 615
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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My moneys on a chair.
Hi Chris P,
Thanks for posting those links, shame the painted the building a ghastly grey and they couldn't build anything more aesthetically pleasing behind it.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 622
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
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Here's Scotland Yard in 1888. Hope it comes out clearly
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 624
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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Aldgate High Street 1928
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 633
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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Honest answer, Clack...
Did you outbid me for this image on eBay?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 625
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 3:59 am: |
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Yes I did.
I would say sorry, but I'd be lying. Anyway it's revenge for the 'Baxter letter'
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 634
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 4:47 am: |
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Had I known it was you I would have put a higher bid on it. Like the Baxter Letter. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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If that view of AHS is looking east, then you have a good view of the (former) butcher shops on the right, where City Inspector Robert Sager described watching a suspect, who without a doubt, was the murderer. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 635
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Scott - I'm fairly sure it IS looking east. That appears to be the spire of St Mary's Whitechapel in the distance. Maybe, just maybe, the elusive 29 may be on the left of this shot.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 629
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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Hi all,
Paul Stevens on another thread mentioned a tv programme called 'The Underworld' which showed footage and photos of Duval/Dorset Street in 1960. The episode 'getting away with murder' was shown on UK PEOPLE yesterday and I got some screen captures.
I don't know where in the East End this footage was taken (if it is the East End), but it is very atmospheric.
The episode, and the episode about the Krays were two of the best documentaries I have seen on sixties gangsters. The Krays episode had colour footage of Vallance Road and the East End in the sixties.
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 686
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:10 pm: |
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With Rob Clack and Christian Jaud this afternoon I went, for the first time, to the site of St Mary's Church in Whitechapel Road which - you will all of course know - Polly Nichols was staring up at the spire of when ejected from Thrawl Street.
It is now a public park with the line of the church marked out, but there are 2 charming survivals besides a few forlorn tombstones.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 699
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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A huge book turned up in the post today, published in 1896. It is a real find and has plenty of huge images of London at the time.
This is the shot of St Mary's Church in 1896. Apparently it burnt down in 1880 and was rebuilt 'within the year' which I find hard to believe!
This gives you an idea of just how HUGE this church was. If you look to the bottom right you will see a couple of familiar features.
Nice to see part of it still stands.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2391
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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Loved these Philip[..and Rob and Christian].Many Thanks for putting them on here.
Nats
x |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 703
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Here's another new image.
Laying of tramlines in Aldgate in 1929.
THE OLD RED LION is the pub on the left. Winston Ramsey claims it was often used as a brothel and though it still stands (or did when his East End book came out) it is now closed.
I'd like to identify this location with this info.
Here's an enlarged area of the other side of the street. The white building seems to show the number 115, but that would be more than Aldgate High Street would have had, so is this Whitechapel High Street? If so, what are our current touchstones and is this taken from the SE or the NW?
PHILIP
Nats - thanks. All my own work at present, though both Rob and Chris took a lot of photos I daresay they will post in due course.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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Philip.
I think its opposite the Whitechapel Art Gallery.Some buildings still indent as above towards the Aldgate gyratory but are now an office block.If I am correct then the photo is taken looking Eastwards
Wonderful pics again!
Nats
x |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4913
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
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I bow to you two as I am hopeless with streets.
This must be another Old Red Lion.
Sept 2nd 1961
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 704
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
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Leman Street runs off Whitechapel High Street, Robert. It is therefore this corner. That means that the row of shops on the photo is actually closer to the junction with Commercial Street. In fact, Commerical Street is just above it. Theoretically, on the row of shops are the openings to Goulston Street and Castle Alley.
I shall await the assurances of Rob Clack...
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4914
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
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Well I'm lost. Could you direct me to the nearest place that serves tea?
I had a look at 1881, and Leman St goes 4 and 2, and then there's the pub, which has a 'B' and no occupants - so I take it that means it's being built. Chris would know.
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 705
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
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Robert - maybe it means it is a premesis without residents?
It could indeed be that it was under construction; I would at least expect the landlord to be on site!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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John Malcolm
Sergeant
Username: Johnm
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 1:51 am: |
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Is this 1896 book something that we should have previously known about? I found a cheap copy of a 1907 reprint of "The People of the Abyss", so I've finally got to see the entirety of Jack London's photos. I'm sure there are more obscure collections out there... |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 706
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 3:57 am: |
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Hi John. A copy turns up on eBay every couple of months. The image of Whitechapel Road is quite a common one, but I've not seen the book discussed anywhere.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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