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Message |
    
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 765
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:21 am: | 
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Imagine little Jack growing up in Whitechapel. Most kids are asked what they want to be when they grow up.
Given little Jack's proclivities, what would he choose? Rader said he was killing cats and dogs at a young age. Dahmer did the same thing.
There were lots of slaughter houses in Whitechapel. The most likely choice for someone who liked killing and cutting up would be to get a job at one of them.
I am going to insert my proficiencies chart again.
Jack knew how to slit throats and eviscerate quickly and efficiently. That is not taught in medical school. Hunters may cut an animal's throat and dress them out and so may farm boys but they don't make a full time profession of it. They would not be as fast as he was (Mitre Square less than 15 minutes.)
He knew where to find the kidney. Kidneys are sold for meat.
A surgeon could remove the uterus without hacking away half the bladder with it, but a slaughterman/butcher does not normally deal with those organs. They are not sold for meat.
The sight of Jack walking around Whitechapel in bloodstained clothes would not arouse suspicion in those who knew him. After all he worked at the slaughter house, right?
And his killing schedule seems to suggest employment. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2085
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
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Hi Diana,
If you are a serial killer in the making, who will end up targeting the most vulnerable and available women in society, it means that you are likely to end up somewhere like Whitechapel, because your prey can be found there in abundance. But would you necessarily have grown up there? Would you necessarily live there or work there?
Any man born in or out of Whitechapel could grow up and decide that would be a really convenient place to prey on unfortunates.
Jack's killing schedule just suggests he may have been freer to come and go at weekends than he was during the week. Maybe he could rarely get to Whitechapel early or mid-week.
Love,
Caz
X |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 766
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Of course you are right, it is possible he didn't live there or work there.
But the psychology of the man (he liked killing and cutting up) would have led him to a slaughter house and there were plenty of those in Whitechapel.
His demonstrated skills (good at throat cutting, knows location and removal method of kidney, not so great with uterus) suggest a slaughterer.
Of course it is possible that he worked at a slaughterhouse in some other part of the country and journeyed to Whitechapel on weekends to kill. BTK lived in Park City and went to Wichita to kill.
But employing Occam's razor a Whitechapel slaughterhouse is the simplest explanation. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2086
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 9:32 am: |
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Hi Diana,
But how many mutilating serial killers are known to have been led by their psychology to work in a slaughter house?
And how many other types have been led to jobs which reflect the way they kill? Dr Harold Shipman is the only one that immediately springs to mind.
Love,
Caz
X |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 767
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
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Well this leads me back to the Whitechapel scenario.
Even if I like killing and mutilating as a kid and as a teenager I am not immediately going to think of working in a slaughterhouse. Out of sight, out of mind.
But if I grow up in Whitechapel with slaughterhouses all around me the idea is more likely to occur.
How many sadists and psychopaths are satisfied with working in these places and never go on to kill people? I love animals and the thought sickens me but it is probably true that a percentage of the employees are drawn there for that reason.
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
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Diana, Caz,
Interesting stuff.
Slighty off target re the topic and just an add on. The Slaughtermans act of throat slitting and mutilating is obvious but the physical strength needed to commit these acts along with manouvering of carcasses is worth considering.
Whoever killed these women was not a 7 stone weakling. He was strong and swift.
Like I said, just a thought.
Cheers
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 768
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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I believe he was young and used to physical exertion. If he worked where he had to heave animal carcasses around he would have built up his strength.
Was there a slaughterhouse nearbly the Nichols crime scene? Maybe Jack was just getting off work when he encountered Polly. It would be then that the idea would grab him. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 790
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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Probably a Jewish leatherworker or some such trade. Used to holding a knife, but no medical knowledge and a growing fascination with what was "inside" a woman.
Possibly a teacher/barrister who was fit from playing sport.
I wonder who could fit either description?
Phil |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 896
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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Possibly someone who had learned surgeons' techniques at an early age during war with the knowledge of where a kidney is located.
Possibly a rough and tumble shochet..
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Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 271
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 3:37 am: |
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Ok one more time. No slaughterman severs the carotid artery and the vega nerve located imediatly behind it. The slaughterman severs the jugular vein in the front of the neck to facilate "bleeding out". To sever the carotid and vega nerve would kill an animal "too good", stoping the heart and blood flow, not what they want. With his first cut, JTR severed the carotid and vega nerve, killing instantly and stopping the heart beat, hence the lack of blood spurts. JTR had some knowledge, but Id say more medical than than slaughterer. Brad |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2907
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 3:56 am: |
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Can I ask, what makes us think he knew where the kidneys were. I mean I'm far from an expert on these matters, but once you've lifted out the intestines, well you see where this is going..?
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 4:47 am: |
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I agree with you Jenni.
And I ask once again - how many mutilating serial killers are known to have worked as butchers or surgeons?
Most men in those days would be at home using a knife, and if you want to murder and mutilate badly enough you jolly well learn. I agree with Monty that this man was no 7 stone weakling, although he may have felt that women had kicked sand in his face all his life.
I'm not even sure that Jack was curious or fascinated with what was inside a woman. It would have been too dark to see those insides clearly and too risky to hang about examining them at the scene with a lighted match. And men have kidneys too, believe it or not!
I think 'hack and grab' explains it all quite simply, with trophies taken to reassure himself later that he wasn't dreaming - he really did have that power over women.
Have a great weekend all.
Love,
Caz
X |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 898
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
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Jenni and Caz:
Through all the other goop and muck of a person's insides..and the kidney was removed.
Dr. Cyril Wecht stated that people in general wouldn't know where to find a kidney, much less remove it in the way a doctor on the spot described...
Brad....Buddy,I was just offering a profession that used knives and that required a knowledge of the insides of a body,human or otherwise.
Good counter-arguments by all... |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 769
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 7:33 am: |
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Brad, you have expertise in the area of slaughter technique? You could make a good reference source. What is your background? |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 750
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 8:00 am: |
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Hi Howard,
"Dr. Cyril Wecht stated that people in general wouldn't know where to find a kidney, much less remove it in the way a doctor on the spot described..."
This is exactly why I think Jack wasn't a doctor or someone with a medical background and that the kidney wasn't something he had specifically looked for. If I remember correctly Richard Chase cut out both kidneys in one case.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1835
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 8:22 am: |
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Frank, Big How,
As Frank says, how do we know it was specifically the kidney he was after?
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 770
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 8:58 am: |
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Here is what Brad is talking about. I pulled my old anatomy notes. This link illustrates the position of the left carotid and vagus nerve well. It is not for the fainthearted to look at. http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/anatomy/heart1jv.htm
This one is good too and is pen and ink so not so scary.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/18006.jpg
I see how they are located at the front.
http://www.themediweb.net/resuscitation/pics/neckanatomy.jpg
This is the best one I could find comparing the locations of the carotid and jugular. Unfortunately the external branch of the jugular in this illustration is a stump but it at least gives you an idea.
Here’s the external jugular by itself. http://www.eapsa.org/images/catheter8.jpg .
Being excessively dumb and stubborn I am even more set in my opinion now because I think this jugular/carotid thing explains something else.
When Jack killed an animal he would do as Brad suggested, slitting the jugular vein and allowing the animal to bleed out. The animal might take longer to die but it would be less messy than dealing with arterial spray.
When he killed a woman he started on automatic pilot and went for the jugular, slitting it and rapidly realizing that the process was taking too long. This explains the second neck cut.
The second cut only appears twice. Once in the case of Nichols and once in the case of Chapman, the first two canonical victims. By the time he got to Stride and the rest he realized that the jugular bleedout method would work fine in a slaughterhouse, but not so great in a murder.
See the excellent Casebook Dissertation: A Closer Look at the Victim’s Wounds by Jill de Schrijver
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-victimwounds.html
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1836
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
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Diana,
....but the mess.
Whatever happend to the mess?
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 771
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
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There would be a mess either way. I'm not sure I understand your question.
I have been googling the vagus nerve. Its function is to act as a brake on the heart so it doesn't go too fast. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12802993&dopt=Abstract
I assume this means that cutting it would cause first tachycardia (speeding up) and finally fibrillation leading to death.
Taking the case of Chapman, the witness heard a cry of "no" and then a sort of fall against the fence. Keep in mind this all happened very rapidly.
1. Jack slits jugular. Before loosing enough blood to go into syncope and collapse, Annie screams, "no!".
2. Jack realizes that if he doesn't do something fast she may make more noise so he makes the second cut, severing the carotid and vagus.
3. Annie has started to collapse but the sudden arrythmia and increased blood loss hastens the process of syncope (fainting) and she falls against the fence. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 454
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 10:16 am: |
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Would working in a slaughterhouse be something that anyone could just walk in and apply for or would it have been a kind of closed shop where jobs were handed down in families in a guild type situation?
Mags
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 751
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
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Hi Diana,
Aren't you (in all your enthusiasm) forgetting the signs of strangulation here?
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 773
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 1:28 pm: |
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Frank, you're right. The others are questionable but who could forget that picture of Annie with her tongue protruding.
However it doesn't demolish the scenario.
Taking the case of Chapman, the witness heard a cry of "no" and then a sort of fall against the fence. Keep in mind this all happened very rapidly.
1. Jack starts to strangle Annie. Before things progress to the point where she can't emit a sound, she manages to scream, "no!" and then collapses against the fence.
2. Rader said it took him two or three minutes to strangle a woman to death. (At least he said it took two or three minutes for her to die so I am assuming strangulation.) Jack may not have taken that long because all he wanted to do was make her faint.
3. Jack slits jugular.
4. It's taking too long for Annie to bleed out, with the danger of immanent discovery facing him he can't wait so he makes the second cut, severing the carotid and vagus.
5.The sudden arrythmia and increased blood loss hastens the process of death. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 917
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 1:22 pm: |
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Frank and Monty:
Sorry to take so long to reply..
Nothing original to add...except that your points are hard to argue against. Damn you two and your common sense !!! 
I suppose it takes something on the order of a coin toss...heads,he knew where it was and wanted it....tails,he came across it and took it.
I just feel [not "know for certain"] the lighting at Mitre Square would have made the kidney removal an extra unnecessary step,unless it was a goal. I dunno...
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:25 am: |
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How, Frank, Diana,
Diana,
Frank sorta hits on my point. If the throat was cut in the way described, then blood flow would have been substantial enough to have been noted at all scenes.....apart from Kelly obviously, where blood flow was immense.
This isnt so, therefore I feel the victims were dead prior to throat cutting. That said, I am not 100% certain this is the case. Other issues do no add up. So I can see your point and concede that it certainly doesnt 'demolish the scenario'.
How, Frank,
I would be interested to find out if the kidney, when resting inside the body, can be located and recognised by touch.
Can this happen?
Cheers,
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 918
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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Monty:
If you can remember when I got in touch with Dr. Cyril Wecht from Duquesne University a while back, he stated that the kidney isn't easy to find visually,as it is behind other organs [ from a frontal view ]. They are in back of the abdominal cavity.
Also, the kidney is 4 1/2 inches on average long. Taking into consideration a slightly enlarged kidney [ from disease,as an example ],this means an average adult kidney is the size of an average man's palm and about 6 oz.
Your guess is as good as mine as to whether it can be detected by touch.
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 753
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Diana,
Just trying to get my head around things here, but wouldn't the slitting of the jugular vein in fact cause arterial spraying, or am I wrong?
Monty,
You feel the victims were already dead when Jack cut their throats, but what Brad said is that severing the left carotid and vagus nerve would not only kill, it would also immediately stop the heart and blood flow so that there would neither be arterial spray nor much blood (I hope Brad corrects me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've understood it).
All,
This is a quote from a post (about MJK) by Joan O'Liari I remembered reading a while back:
The important difference between a left to right cut or vice-versa is the location of the vagus nerve. A cut originating from the left side of the neck will sever the vagus nerve, which controls the heart function. This will immediately stop the heart.
A cut in the right side of the neck will only sever the carotid artery, which will certainly cause a spout of blood, but the heart will not stop as immediately as with the vagus nerve being severed.
Thus we have the blood spouting, and the large amount of blood as the body bled out.
All the best,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 754
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 6:38 pm: |
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PS When I start writing things like:
...would not only kill, it would also immediately stop the heart...
it's high time to go to bed. I make me laugh.
Nighty night,
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 775
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Cutting the jugular vein would not cause arterial spray.
The major arteries carry the full force of the blood from cardiac contraction. Cutting them would cause spray.
They branch into smaller arterioles and finally into capillaries. The force diminishes at each step.
After passing through the tissues of the body, the capillaries merge to form venules and then veins. The veins carry the blood back to the heart.
Blood flows with force through the carotid arteries, then it goes to the cranium where the arteries become arterioles and finally capillaries. The capillaries merge to form venules and then veins including the jugular.
The jugular vein is carrying blood back to the heart from the cranium. The force is much diminished.
This link also posted above shows the position of the vagus nerve (not for the squeamish). http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/medicine/units/anatomy/heart1jv.htm. It actually appears to be toward the right.
There are various physiological forces which speed the heart up. The function of the vagus nerve is to balance them. It acts as a brake, slowing the heart down. If the vagus nerve were cut, I imagine the heart would race (tachycardia) and then go into uncontrolled fibrillation. The person would die of (among other things) arrhythmia. However I'm not sure how instantaneous this would be.
I don't believe Chapman was killed by the strangulation because there was arterial spray on the fence (second cut).
Kelly also had spray on the walls.
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1843
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 3:31 am: |
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How,
Shape wise, its very distinct.
Diana, Frank, thank you both.
Monty
...and I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do!
Now you're gonna die!!"
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John Dow
Police Constable
Username: Johnmdow
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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It's my understanding that the function of the vagus nerve wasn't known until 1912 (Heymans and Somer I believe). Which kinda renders a fair bit of argument moot ;-)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 755
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Thanks for that info (and all the links), Diana!
(I found out that I should have consulted the dictionary a little earlier - then I would have discovered that carotid artery means... well uhm... carotid artery. I was very close to mixing up jugular and carotid)
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 272
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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Great Logic John! And since germs werent known before Pasteur, Semmelweis, and Lister obviously no one died of disease before 1847, right?
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 776
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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Cutting the vagus nerve would lead apparently to a fatal arrhythmia, but would it be instantaneous or take a short while? |
John Dow
Police Constable
Username: Johnmdow
Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 3:04 am: |
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Brad:
My point was the Jack would hardly have taken into consideration knowledge he didn't have when choosing the direction to cut. I'm just making it completely clear that any side effects of cutting the phagus were incidental and not premeditated.
And there's no need to be quite so hostile.
John |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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Wasn't Cyril Wecht going to look into this case? Whatever happened to that? Does anybody know?
c.d. |
Chad
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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Hello all: This is my first post (I'm in the process of getting an account). Regarding where JTR lived, the disorganized aspects of the murders as well as the fact that Jack didn't stick out like a sore thumb make it highly likely that he lived/worked in close proximity to his crimes. |
Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 273
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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John I mean't nothing hostile and apoligise if I came off that way. Point is one neednt medical knowledge to know the cause and effect of slicing the left side of the neck. Its been a known area to attack with either knife or sword since the time of the Egyptians.
yours, Brad |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 781
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 8:00 am: |
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Jack, whoever he was would not have the knowledge we have today about the physiology of the vagus nerve.
But if he were a slaughterman he would know the quickest most effective mode of throat cutting. |
Jack's Proficiencies