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Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:25 am: | 
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"Why is it that TWO of you went down Winthrop Street and avoided..."
Hutch. Good question but very simple answer,in my case nothing mysterious or so:
I was in a hurry because the plane at Gatwick wouldn't wait, I came "in" through Woods buildings and stood in front of that board school and was totally surprised, I recognized it from that old pictures and thought wow, an "eye-whitness", if bricks only could talk. Then I stopped thinking somehow and hurried to the right.
That the actual site is on the other side came to me in Gatwick express.
Sad, simple and stupid.
The next time I came for a visit a few years later the area already looked like it looks now.
Christian
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 39
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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That's a possibility, Glenn. What a shame if it is true. Also a bit of a paradox that they now mark the grave sites with respect (which, of course, was always due) - maybe it is an ethos to show benevolence to the dead but, in the way that Gacy's house or Fred West's house came down, they want to eradicate all signs of the murders? They would be their own worst enemies, if so. Why else would tourists visit the East End, beyond cheap market goods? "Ooh, that's a lovely newspaper blowing down that side street!" 
They have to resign themselves to the fact that, do what they will to the locations (and let's be honest, there is nothing really left of the true feel of the times beyond tiny little areas like Puma Court off Commerical Street), there are always going to be people like me working around there, with hundreds of tourists in tow. The more they pull down, the more I have to rely on verbosity to conjure the environment. It's not going to keep the gawkers away - Hell, there's still the occasional poster on sites like this asking how they can find Miller's Court, is there not?
I can understand the locals not liking people shouting outside their windows night after night but I think it is time that the Councils acknowledged their ancestry and realised they could market it on the tack of 'never again', rather than the mode they are all wary of, the 'blood and guts and death'. Perhaps if they saw there was more than one angle of approaching this part of their past they could begin to realise Ripperology is more than single-faceted and could be utilised to their benefit.
And I've just seen a pig flying past my window...
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 40
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:36 am: |
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Christian - I don't know whether to laugh or cry! That story seems so funny, but it's touching you could have been moved enough by the Board School to be distracted (it is a very impressive structure, though, isn't it? Seeing it as it is today, I find those photos of it in dereliction really quite frightening!). I know if it happened to me I would be kicking myself all the way home. Still - a good way of avoiding deep-vein thrombosis!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
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Folks
In my case the answer to why I photographed Winthrop Street is, that it was the first (of many times)I've been around the Ripper sites and I simply didn't know my sites then. I took a look down Winthrop Street, decided it was Durward Street, took the picture and legged it. I only realised my mistake later - durrrr. When I next went back much had changed sadly.
There is another reason and it's this. Neither my wife nor I wanted to hang about because it was late October, cold and getting dark and I have to say this is one of only two JtR sites that I get a really unpleasant feeling about. I've been there at night and it's even worse. I'm not a nervy sort of person but I had a distinct sense of evil in this place. The other place was Abel Buildings which I thought at the time was Swallow Gardens. My sense of direction isn't that great clearly!!
I think as regards the local view of JtR and the associated interest you have to look at it from their point of view. At the time people were deeply ashamed that this could happen in their communities and no doubt also by the association with prostitution. Its no surprise that some of the more upwardly mobile areas such as Bucks Row changed their names.
These days I think that those with an interest assume that everyone knows as much about JtR as we do. In fact most people don't and even locally probably don't know very much, apart from the fact that they get a lot of people trooping round taking photos and being a minor irritation. Bear in mind that there is a large Bengali community in the East End, many of whom know nothing of the local history. Those East End families that have a long history in the area, probably adopt the traditional view and see the JtR legacy as shameful, which is reflected by the local authority's lack of interest.
To be honest if more was made of it, can you imagine the locals taking kindly to JtR Souvenir shops etc. I'm sure I'd hate it, particularly if I had to live with it.
We shouldn't be surprised if the locals really don't want to know. I would guess they are far more interested in the Kray twins. I do think its shame that more and more of the historic buildings are going, but many of them were slums in Victorian times, still the odd plaque might not go amis.
D_I |
George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
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Hi D_I
Lots to ponder here. I am going to look a total dork by admitting to this; first time I toured the sites I had Fido's LONDON WALKING TOURS tape with me and it is full of crappy errors. When I got to Dorset Street I followed his directions which indicated the portico to the current building being the location of Miller's Court and I presumed that very arch to the portico was the original entrance to it!
Maybe, being an actor, tour guide and pro voiceover artist (and clearly arrogant git!) I should do an accurate one?! Any leads to go on, anyone? Hmm... interactive CD-Rom, Jane? 
The only sites I've not been to at night are the very ones you mention. I've been to all the others, and the only places that scare me is around Wentworth Street and Bell Lane, but that is only because in years gone by I have sometimes had local teenagers cause a problem (not for a while though). It might be different if I were by myself, though, but I have a feeling I know them so well now it wouldn't alienate me.
When you say an 'evil feeling', can you quantify it? You may or may not know I delivered a lecture on the Ghosts Of Jack The Ripper in November (should be doing it again at Brighton in October) so the paranormal side interests me. Did you sense anything, or did the place just give you the willies (and, by the way, I always felt unsafe going on that bridge and through Wood's Buildings until it was recently blocked off)?
I have always wondered when a dark aspect of history becomes acceptable? I have decided it is when there are no direct living descendants who were bereaved or involved. THE TITANIC is one example of something that is of huge interest but still uncomfortable to use in a jokey way, as Millvina Dean, though a baby, is still alive from it. Obviously, I am not saying we should make the Ripper light-hearted (how vile that would be!), but that I believe after this passage of time, it should be an acknowledged and acceptable part of history, though it is understandable why it was avoided for so long. Salem now plays on its abominable witch trials of 1692 for tourism, and The Tower Of London has never been anything BUT - do you see where I'm coming from? When does it become fair game for tourism? I do, of course, have a biased view and a vested interest!
It is true so many people in the locale know little of the facts; I always get locals stopping and listening to me and I had a great one last year down Whites Row where a guy standing on the balcony of the present number 8 (where I guess the old one was? I hope so!) heard me talking about Annie Millwood and was genuinely interested. I disagree, though, that the Asian community don't know about the history - they may not know the DETAILS, but they are certainly aware this is Ripper country. Every night I get some group of Muslim kids around Wentworth Street or Gunthorpe Street shouting 'Jack The Ripper!' at us (as if it MEANS something...)
Your view of merchandising is horrible. I hate tacky souvenirs of anything, especially an area of serious study such as this (snotty, eh?). Yes, such a thing would be cheap and tawdry. What would be great would be some indication of what happened at each site - I agree; a plaque. It will never happen, of course. If I LIVED at such a site I might have a problem (though the folk at 25 Noel Road, Islington, where Joe Orton died don't seem to have an issue), but with there being no buildings left, I don't think I would personally object to someone doing the tourist bit nearby. That, of course, is entirely subjective and I understand others may disagree.
Ah yes, The Kray Twins. Lovely fellas. Loved their mum. Straight-up geezers. Kept to their own. Yeah, course they did... 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
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George
Thanks for a thought provoking post. I think sometimes we forget how much we know and have learned about JtR, so it does no harm to remember some of the early c*ck-ups once in a while - bit like the guy from Decca who thought the Beatles were rubbish and wouldn't give them a contract
As regards my sense of evil at Bucks Row, to put this in context I'm not a believer in Ghosts and the like and I've only had a handful of these sort of experiences but can say that I felt the hairs on the back of my neck bristle. There was nothing tangible, but just a sense that this was not a pleasant place and I should get out. I've been back and had similar feelings, but then I sense nothing at Dorset Street or in Mitre Square!
Pinchin Street just feels squalid, but I did feel a similar sort of feeling in 'Abel Buildings' which I thought was Swallow Gardens, so proabably I'm not experiencing anything other than impressions based upon my own knowledge of events in these places.
I too have an interest in the Titanic, but purely from a readers point of view. Intereting the connection between the two - i.e. JT Stead (Ed of the Pall Mall Gazette) who drowned in the Titanic disaster.
I would actually like the Ripper sites and other buildings of interest to be marked with informative plaques giving the ascertainable facts (and no more) possibly in the form of walk, but I can understand that locally this would not be popular and I doubt that it will ever happen.
The Krays - what a pair of diamond geezers 
All the best
D_I
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 57
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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Hi D_I
In regards to Durward Street - I take it your visit the first time was during when the Board School was ruinous? In that condition, as I have said, the structure put the fear of God into me - I think it was its immensity in desolation. That could explain the odd feelings.
Being a veteran of many paranormal investigations, I strongly believe most feelings are conjoured by the actual surroundings and nothing more. There may well be nothing odd there at all, but it LOOKS spooky and so makes us feel uneasy. The most scared I ever was on a ghost hunt was at a derelict Tudor almshouse in Suffolk. Nothing whatsoever happened, but I was with a team in pitch darkness in the most haunted room in the building, facing a window where the ghost was meant to appear, next to the staircase where feet have been heard and directly in front of a very dark niche in the wall. I was petrified, but this was all due to expectation. Nothing happened. The times when things HAVE happened I wasn't spooked out at all. So  to your views.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2805
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
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Hi Philip,
I believe you're right. Although I am a believer of ghosts and the paranormal, and have had a couple of encounters myself that I totally discounts as spells of my imagination (and as you say, those things happen usually when it is NOT expected), I'd say quite a lot of our feelings about a place is a result of our expectations and our prior knowledge of events that might have taken place there. And I truly believe the Ripper sites might belong to that category.
On my own visit I can't say I generally felt more spooked out than I usually do, but fact remains the Mitre Square - in spite of its modern buildings - did freak me out a bit, and I would not appreciate walking there alone at night. Although it is totally changed, the air of desolation is still there, probably because the layout and the cobble-stones are still the same. But besides that I can't say the Ripper sites as such provided me with some ghostly uneasy emotions, but then again, I never managed to reach Durward Street.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 62
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Which also proves subjectivity, Glenn, as D_I didn't feel spooked by Mitre Square. Actually, I find Mitre Square very atmospheric at night but I could quite happily sit there alone. I get that sense of the past, but not the murder - mind you, every time I am at Ripper's Corner the empty flagstones there just let your imagination fill the blank space with the image of the sketch of CE. It doesn't spook me, though.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Philip (sorry about the George earlier)
Yes - visited Durward Street in 1992 I believe (the first time) and it was absolutely trashed and I think you're right that this added to the general feeling. I have however been there a number of times since and even though the area is rebuilt and the Board School has been made into flats (good to see it restored rather than just demolished) I have had much the same feeling every time, even during the day, although more so at night. If I was a nervous soul I'd say it felt like someone watching you. This feeling extended even onto the platform at Whitechapel tube, although I was the only person standing there, but I'm indulging myself a bit now. As I say I'm not a believer in that type of experience. 
Cheers
D_I |
esm
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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http://www.jacktheripper.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=490
picture-bouillabaisse (not restricted to the East End). Maybe some of them have been posted before...
esm |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
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Good link - thank you! Nice to see another shot of the Aldgate Pump.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1644
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Hi all
These reminiscences about Durward street in the early 1990's brought back some memories as I visited all the sites except Henriques Street at that time. Although not decided about things paranormal I must agree about the Board School. At that time it was derelict - in fact when I visited there was aboard up saying it was due for demolition. It was certainly an eerie looking building, especially so as the time we got there was early evening, just as it was getting dark. But the most disturbing part of the walk round was walking down what was then left of Winthrop Street. I was with two friends and as we walked down towards the Brady Street end from the Board School there was a yard on the right hand side witha chain link fence running across the front of it. Two very rough looking guys were hanging about in the forecourt of what looked like a scrap yard and became very abusive, saying "our sort" only came looking for trouble. I must stress that no words had passed and we were just walking along minding our own business. We walked on without responding but they set the dogs on us! I could not say what breed they were (if any!) but we did not stay around long enough to find out. The weirdest part was as we ran - which seemed the best idea at the time - one of the guys shouted out after us that we had come looking for the Ripper and had found him!
I can only assume these guys had, for some reason, a problem with people who went round the area either on guided tours or on their own sightseeing walks but it was an unnerving experience!
Chris |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 135
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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Chris - ah, the chipper cheeky Cockney chappie!
If that happened to me I would have gone straight to the police and probably never got over it. In 2 years of leading Ripper tours the worst I have ever personally had was 2 months after I started a group of teenagers (about half a dozen) who had just been moved on and argueing with nearby coppers came up and surrounded our group (though we outnumbered them 4 to 1) and started shouting abuse at me. That was it in about 200 walks. I do know of other groups who have had things thrown at them from windows, and a year ago a guide had concrete blocks thrown at her group from White's Row Car Park, but I've been lucky.
In fact, the worst I have ever had on my visits to murder sites (when I was a teenager I used to go up to London on summer days with Brian Lane's MURDER GUIDE TO LONDON and go to as many places as I could - HAPPY DAYS. REALLY!) was I got a filthy look from an old lady in the house next door as I stood across the road and stopped for just a few seconds and looked at the house in Chalk Farm where Styllou Christofi (there's a name you don't hear every day!) killed her daughter-in-law.
I had a lovely one the first time I went to Bartle Road / Rillington Place. I was nearby with a map and this old man came up asking me if I wanted help. I thanked him and said I was fine, and he then went on to tell me, without any prompting, about Christie! Bless him.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 437
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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I've managed to get some screen captures from "The London Nobody Knows" the images aren't great as they are from a fifteen year old tape.
I don't know if this is the same shi-toilet from 1888.
Rob |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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Robert
Absolutely fantastic work! Not at all bad quality either! Pictures like this really help to get a feel for how these places were.
D_I |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 440
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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Hi D_I
Trying to get any colour photo's of the murder sites is a nightmare, and some locations are just impossible.
I did see one of Commercial Street in 1959 (the same view as The Britannia photo), have to try and see if I can get a copy,
Rob |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 60
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:30 pm: |
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Just found these and they are fantastic images - never seen the film before, though I have always wanted to.
I assume the lav is the original. Where was the tap where the leather apron was found?
I assume that the very open railing at the end of the yard is more recent than 1888?
Superb and evocative pics - thanks again.
Phil |
DARK_INTENT
Sergeant
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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Rob
Always good to see photos like this so keep up the good work. That back door is original (perhaps), as I've just matched all the marks with the photo in the A-Z and its an exact tally. Problem is of course I don't know when the A-Z photo dates from, although I suspect the 1950s or 60s?
D_I
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Robert,
Thanks very much for posting these.They really are great for what I want.
One of the things that I realised yesterday when I was painting and tried to envisage the dawn atmosphere at 5.30 am in September was how difficult it is to imagine the atmosphere anyway of this street in 1888.Going by the dates when similar houses were built in Spitalfields 29 Hanbury Street would have been some 150 years old.
Clearly not all the dwelling places were as old as the Hanbury St. one. The Wentworth tenement Building in Goulston St. had only just been built[2 or 3 years old?]And there were other "model" tenements going up.So I guess by 1888 Hanbury Street,deserted by the silk weavers long since had had some 50 years to deteriorate,become "run down"etc.And yet in parts of that street and the same is true of the other Streets running parallel
there is more than a trace of their elegance and grandeur.The beautiful carvings on numbers of doors-scant trace of a Victorian type
vandalism or any other vandalism to speak of.Lots of original features remain on the houses of Whitechapel but not so much in Hanbury Street itself,although I understand this has changed lately and that many of the houses on the opposite side to no.29 are similarly intact.
So to me it would appear that while the prosperity of the street had long gone many of its houses would still have had a shabby chic look[cant think of a better phrase at the moment]with their continental type shutters[seen in the 1888 newspaper drawings]the long glass roof windows that they still have,some of the delicate fanlights above doors must have been there and ofcourse the doors themselves which in at least three or four houses per street had those lovely carved wooden patterns on them.
So my guess is that most of the houses in Hanbury Street would have probably been ready for a coat of paint, a few window panes and roof tiles might have been missing here and there,
and shopkeepers and other small businesses would have put some crass signs up to advertise there services.But there were enough people living in them for the street to have looked inhabited even if a bit run down.
By the mid to late 19 80"s which is another hundred years later and when the above photos were taken, the street had gone down even further with all sorts of alterations to the small shops and businesses,still no paint,even more broken windows and sections of houses demolished altogether.The brick work had darkened yet further
and the shutters in this street had vanished.
Thinking of the bricks,most of the brick would have come from the brickfields of Southall
and would have been a creamy yellow which you can still see in many houses.But they seem to have used a brighter,redder type of brick to draw out specific features such as decorative semi arches in brick around the tops of the windows here,not the usual clay brick of much of London and its suberbs.Maybe the Huguenots brought thes ideas from France and had them made especially.
Once again Many Thanks Rob,I have found all your photographs really really helpful.
Natalie
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 441
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi D_I
It looks like the A-Z photo was taken around the same time as 'The London Nobody Knows' was made, at least a few years either side. I'm just going by the amount of rubble and the boards. The state the back door is in, it looks like it could be from 1888, but I couldn't say for definite. I believe that at least in the sixties there were two doors leading to the garden. Not side by side but in front of each other at a roughly a foot gap.
Hi Phil
I believe the railings weren't there in 1888. I am not sure when they were erected. The tap I think was on the wall on the back of the building it self, to the far left of the door as you look at it.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 442
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie,
The only way I could describe some of the houses, are having a thin layer of 'soot' on them. It's hard to imagine it now as a lot of the surrounding streets have had a good scrub and look like new. Which is good, but not so good if you need to imagine how they were in the 1880's
Rob |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 171
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
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Folkies -
Excellent video captures, Rob. Very clear, in spite of your reservations.
This film was made in 1967 - the very time that Stewart Evans took his photos. I don't think, though, if you read his summary elsewhere on Casebook of his 1967 visit, you will find that black-bordered photo of the backyard was taken by him. He couldn't get in as the door was locked. Nats - I'm going to be a pain again; it can't have been the 1980s that those shots came from as that side of the street came down in 1972.
JANE! A LETTERBOX! 
No reason why it wouldn't be the same toilet, really, is there? Maybe you can get your plops for Dutfields Yard in there.
I would strongly recommend this film to anyone. It is a complete gem. I love it. Happy to make a copy for anyone on here if you want to sort it out, though remember you can download the Hanbury Street clip on this very site.
If you want a feel of how it would have been (though cleaner), leave Commercial Street after The Ten Bells and take a left into Puma Court (the most evocative residential street in the East End I think) and then swing left again into Wilkes Street up to Hanbury Street. All the buildings look great and most of them have shutters. It's a little less posh than Fournier Street.
Bestest to all
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1648
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:29 pm: |
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Hi guys
Does any one have information about a photographer named John Galt?
This is the info that caught my eye:
"Galt worked as a missionary for the methodist London City Mission. He took photographs in the East End to illustrate lectures which he gave up and down the country to raise funds for the mission’s work. The photographs were taken primarily to show that those whom the mission sought to help, though poor, were nevertheless worthy of salvation"
One of his photos, entitled "Cat's Meat man, 1902" is below:
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1649
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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Here is another Galt - Little Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green 1900
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 180
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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Chris - never heard of him, but it is a wicked photo!
I've just found a book I remember my late Londoner nan having when I was a kid, 'A Cockney Camera', on eBay which is coming soon and this has a lot of images of the area at the time so I will sort out some gems and upload them. I had a great photo from The Minories (albeit 1938) arrive today I'll upload later on.
I hope the Cat Meat man was selling the contents of the basket and not the little girl! 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2884
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
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Wow, Chris!
Great photos.
The bottom one from Bethnal Green: ouch, talk about rustic environment. Then one can choose if one wants to interpret it as "picturesque" or just simply poor...
Great faces there, on the other one.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 183
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
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I love the ground in the second one. To be honest, living in a place like that appeals to me! The cobbles themselves - oh, it looks gorgeous. You can almost smell it with the new rainfall.
Yes, it's a smashing one. I wonder if it's still there?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2886
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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I agree, Hutch.
And I wouldn't mind living there myself either (I guess I fit into the "picturesque" category...).
Unfortunately, we don't have many places like that left in Sweden (besides in open air museums), since the Social Democrats destroyed most of them during the 1930s and 1960s--70s.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1468
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
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Thanks Chris for these photographs.They are very evocative of the time somehow-he depicts what appear to be decent living folk and places them neatly in their neighbourhood-all look very respectable and nice.Beautiful clear compositions too!U nfortunately I couldnt find anything about the photographer .I very much appreciated your post about the two terrors who set their dogs on you and your friends.When I went to that particular spot last Summer I went with my husband who is a bit more street wise than me and having been born in London.No way would he walk up Woods Passage which had a few such characters as you encountered hanging around.This was about 8pm in May on a Sunday.
However I managed to work out that most of it is fine if you keep to those times when there are loads of people shopping in Sainsbury"s adjacent to Durward Street. Anyway standing in front of the old Board School,now all refurbished and seeing the views of the backs of the old houses on Whitechapel High Street with Royal London Hospital towering over them like a Victorian stage backdrop were well worth the effort that Sunday evening when it was all deserted!
Best Natalie
Rob,
those pictures have been such a help!You have such a gift with both choice of photo to illustrate the area and with your own atmospheric shots.Brilliant!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
Here is another of Little Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green taken by Galt about 1900
 |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 443
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
|
Thank You Natalie, thats much appreciated, 
Since I don't like to post on this thread without a photo, here's Whitechapel Underground Station during the 1940's, with the Board School in the background.
All the best
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
|
This seems to be the original from which the above is a cut down version (and reversed!)
 |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 185
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
|
Great ones, Chris!
This is a bit later, but hopefully still of interest. I won this on eBay a few days ago. It was quite badly damaged but I have touched it up a bit with Photoshop (I'm no genius - I did it subtley with the blur tool).
It's an original press photograph from 1938 of an anti-German rioter being arrested after assaulting a shopkeeper in The Minories.
As the seller put in the ad - the offender was clearly Les Dawson's dad!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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Very interesting pic Philip and a good job with the retouch :-)
Chris |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
|
Rob C : Boy, they really let Whitechapel tube go during the 1940s, didn't they?!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 444
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:37 am: |
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Hi Philip
Whitechapel Underground Station, hasn't really changed that much 
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1476
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
|
Chris,Thanks for these lovely shots by Galt.These last two are so very helpful too because they show the sorts of clothes people wore so clearly.Also the famous pre-war community thing of the East End---its almost palpable in all these shots
Rob,
once again an outstanding find this of the bomb damaged station.What a wreck!
Many thanks
Philip,
Now its my turn to WOW!!!That picture is wonderful
---a bit puzzling mind considering the guy was protesting about something we know in retrospect to have been well worth protesting about.Maybe Chamberlain had given orders on his"peace mission"
to Hitler!
Many Thanks
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 200
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Nats : Yep, it is a paradox. Obviously, three cheers for him being anti-Nazi. But then again, he was assaulting Germans in Britain who probably had no affiliations to what was going on in Europe in any way. He wasn't protesting against Hitler - he was smashing up German shops, which is quite a different thing.
I can send you a full size copy of this one if you want me to e-mail it. It's a lot bigger than the small one up here.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
|
The one you show is just fine Philip-more than.
I see now why the fuss!Thanks!
Natsx |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 465
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Hi
This photo was taken about 1946. The angles a bit awkward but I think it is the Swallow Gardens archway (the first arch you can see the whole of from the left.)
Rob |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 335
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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Hello Chris Scott,
Regarding your John Galt photographs.An excellent find, Chris!
Given JG was described as a missionary with the London City Mission in the East End of London and he took photographs to assist fund-raising for his mission work around the country in 1902, I turned to my collection of biographies of East End Missioner and child-rescuer Dr Thomas Barnardo, hoping the indexes might throw something up. They didn't.
The only "Galt" mention I could find was a town in Canada where Miss Annie Macpherson sent her East End children - for a better life. Religious revival meetings by evangelical missionaries were well received in Galt.
This suggests to me, perhaps John Galt might have been a second generation of Methodist evangelist.
The author of the book, Gillian Wagner, quotes THE CHRISTIAN as saying the people of Galt were Godfearing tea-totallers. Galt was a small town, to the west of Belleville, settled mainly by Scottish migrants.
So keen were the people of Galt, they gave Annie Macpherson an hundred acre farm at Blair Athol,to house her child migrants prior to their going out to Canadian farms as labourers and maids.
(All this is apparently, quoted from THE CHRISTIAN of 30 May, 1872).
Incidentally, speaking of magnificent sources for photographs of the Eastern portion of London in the 1880's, I cannot think of a better resource to explore than Barnardo's Photographic Department at Tanners Lane, Barkingside. They probably still have Dr Barnardo's original lantern slides from his lectures.
Back in the 1970's a photographic exhibition toured the world,(well, at least England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Canada and Australia-possibly New Zealand), entitled THE CAMERA AND DR. BARNARDO, some very evocative before and after photos of "rescued urchins" and the localities they survived in beforehand, were included.
A word of advice though, since Barnardos is a still-functioning but much improved, children's charity, it might be smart when you ring up to make an appointment to call, to mention you would be prepared to make a reasonable donation to support their present work, which includes curating and preserving their very valuable photographic archive.
Privacy considerations would also apply. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4013
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
|
Hi Chris
This should help you track him in the census.
("The Times" Christmas Day 1891)
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4019
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Hi John Ruffels
I phoned Barnardo's but it was a bit of a let down. They don't have that many pictures - particularly of streets. They have a Petticoat Lane 1900 photo. But what photos they do have are of derelicts on the Embankment, the kids at the homes, and the homes themselves. I asked if this was because photos had been transferred elsewhere, but they said that this is all that has survived.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 336
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 5:28 am: |
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Hello Robert,
Sorry about your lack of success.Barnardo's built a large headquarters and receiving home at 18 Stepney Causeway.
Over the years Dr Barnardo perceived the huge potential of photography for publicising his work, and providing some record of early childhood for his young charges.It was this aspect of his work (he was accused by his detractors of faking "Before and After" photographs- even to dressing his newly arrived charges in rags to extract more pity, and money from his subscribers).
Perhaps a long trawl through his publication NIGHT AND DAY, and even THE CHRISTIAN and other Evangelical publications of the time would be hard work, but rewarding.
As you will be aware, Barnardo himself was once a JTR suspect.He would certainly have had the motive AND the medical experience.He even claimed to have spoken to one of the canonical victims in a lodging house the night before she was murdered.
So, he was certainly on the spot.
I do not know what to suggest about the lack of street scapes in the Barnardo Photographic Archive
perhaps go to a major library and obtain a copy of the actual catalogue for the Barnardo travelling photo exhibition: THE CAMERA AND DR BARNARDO.That will give you an idea to what was
covered.
JUNE ROSE's book FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN (Hodder & Stoughton) 1987, has an extensive bibliography which might put you onto other Barnardo biographies with more illustrations.
Other "child rescuers" might also have left photographic legacies ( they were for London:J W C Fegan, Bowman Stephenson & Charles Spurgeon from the 1870s).
Good Luck. There's treasure out there! |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 300
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
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Y'know I think Thomas Barnardo is an even less likely suspect than Charles Lutwidge Dodgson!
He did meet Liz Stride in the kitchen of the dosshouse at 32 Flower & Dean Street (Wiltons?) a few days before she died, but this guy is for me the greatest national hero the UK ever had.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he wasn't a surgeon, was he? And what on earth was his motive?!
Actually this reads quite tersely - it isn't meant to be!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 338
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 6:30 am: |
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Hello Phillip,
I agree, under the conditions which existed in those days, Thomas Barnardo did a valiant job.
You ask what his motive would have been, were he JTR..
Because he had to scoop up and feed and clothe and train thousands of children of those very same poverty stricken women and men,who had been driven to the city in search of work, and who succumbed often, to the bottle in their benighted circumstances.
From this combination, many children were born out of wedlock, left to fend for themselves, like feral animals.
So Barnardo's "motive" would allegedly have been to remove the " baby breeders"; the "fallen" women who produced this swarm of "gutter children"...As usual, the men were absent from this equation..
As an (unqualified) doctor, he would not have been the only evangelical preacher railing against the sinful ways of the frequenters of the gin palaces.He even bought the Elephant & Castle Hotel and turned it into a Coffee Palace!
Incidentally, one of the early Committee members supporting his work was a certain Sir Robert Anderson...
I have seen photos of his early school premises at Hope place Stepney. His major headquarters in the 1880s were at 18-20 Stepney Causeway EC. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 479
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
|
Hi
Found a sketch of the Crossinghams Lodging House at 35 Dorset Street which is the corner with Little Paternoster Row
And this is a clearer pic of the corner of Duval Street from Crispin Street.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 482
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
|
I was talking about Castle Alley and the wash houses on another thread. This is them from I think 1934.
Rob |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 339
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 4:56 am: |
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Rob,
Great photos. Thanks. I still think black and white beats colour for evoking the smoggy rainy cobbled-streeted world of late Victorian London architecture.
Funny you should download a photo of one of Charrington's pubs.That famous Mile End brewery
family had a very interesting history.
Apparently the family were greatly wealthy because of their pubs and ale-making.
The son, Frederick Charrington foresook the family trade and embraced temperance preaching and child rescue.After seeing a man violently beat his woman in front of a pub emblazoned with the Charrington name.
Interestingly, there was competition in the evangelist child rescue world too. When Barnardo boasted he had been hugely successful in the East End Mission work, despite having neither a treasurer nor committee, Charrington fumed and regarded Barnardo as gradually interloping into Charrington's Mile End turf.
(Especially when Barnardo, after purchasing the Elephant & Castle pub and turning it into a coffee palace, was thinking of purchasing another pub in the Mile End area).
Charrington joined forces with another Barnardo rival, Baptist, George Reynolds, and together they dug up as much scandal as they could about Barnardo.
Barnardo eventually won public credibility by adopting proper accounting methods and a high -powered committee of City prominents.
I hope Phillip will download his photos too, soon. |
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