| Author |
Message |
    
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 661
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:53 pm: | 
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The Lusk Letter was obviously designed to revolt any civilized person.
But what if Jack knew some things about George Lusk that we don't. If that was the case, he might have included some references especially designed to horrify Lusk.
For instance the reference to eating a human kidney would disgust anyone, but if George Lusk happened to be a pious Jew, carefully observant of the Old Testament food laws about clean and unclean meat, it would be especially revolting. I don't know whether this is the case or not. If true it would tie in with other hints as to Jack's antisemitism, as would the fake Irish "accent" in which the letter was written. It would be as though he was saying, "see, I'm not one of you."
I would think the same might be true of the reference to the bloody knife. Perhaps there is a poster who is of the Jewish faith that could enlighten us as to the special concerns relating to human blood. My ideas about this are vague.
Even if Lusk was a gentile I think we need to know more about him. It could be that Jack was pushing his buttons and the references are sailing right over our heads. If we understood what things Lusk hated, we might get a revealing look at what Jack was thinking when he penned this horrible letter. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 618
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:20 pm: |
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Dear Diana...
One possible thought occurs regarding the Lusk Letter.
The use of the phrase itself, "From Hell.." has always stood out to me at least.
There's nothing [ again, to me..] that indicates a backslapping practical joke concocted in the mind[s[ of a couple of pranksters. Its pretty scary. But...thats just me.
I did spend some time looking through the Talmud for you, but didn't see anything that talked about blood in the sense you mean. Maybe,as you say,someone who is Jewish would know. Oy vey,I tried !
HowBrown
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1716
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 3:59 am: |
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Diana,
A teaser here.
But what if Jack knew some things about George Lusk that we don't. If that was the case, he might have included some references especially designed to horrify Lusk.
There is something in what you say there. Though this is conjecture, Lusk may well have been a little annoyed at receiving a kidney in the post.
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 5:33 am: |
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Diana,
Well, for one thing, the supposed human ritual slaughters by the Jews has been a well known "fact" for centuries.
http://www.remember.org/guide/History.root.classical.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_the_Middle_Ages
Even though human sacrifice was common with many cultures in early history, the anti semitic libel is all damn*d lies, obviously. But then anti Semitism has been around "forever". Modern people puts most of the blame on the nazi's, but they hardly started it!
This is not something we like to speak about, but almost every "civilized" nation used to be anti-semitic. For example, the Danish King Christian V declared that Jews was not allowed into Norway in 1687 (Norway was in Union with Denmark at the time), and even the Norwegian Grunnlov (Constitution) from 1814 states that Jews was disallowed from the realm.
**
One thing that keeps popping into my mind is that "From Hell" might have been an euphemism for the slums of London.
Of course, this fits well with my idea of Jack as an anti-semitic, politically disillusioned, intelligent, but deranged serial killer.
Helge
"Please, Spock, do me a favor ... don't say it's `fascinating'..." Dr. McCoy
"No... but it is...interesting..." Spock (The Ultimate Computer)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4580
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
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Hi Diana
In his petition, Lusk described himself as a Vestryman, so I doubt if he was Jewish.
Robert |
Ian Biles
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
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It's like most things with the Jack The Ripper case we just don't know most things are possible.
How well known would George Lusk have been to the general public? Obviously if the Ripper DID send the letter Lusk was known to him even if undirectly.
Be nice to have Dr Who's tardis for a day and travel back to find the real truth wouldn't it? ;-) |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1717
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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Ian and Diana,
On a more personal level....
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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Well, Lusk was chairman of the Mile End Vigilance Committee (also known as the Whitechapel Vigilance committee), that "dominated the contemporary news columns.." (Sugden p. 123).
It seems fairly certain that Jack would have read these newspapers, or at least kept himself informed by words on the street. After all, he would like to be informed on how his "trade" affected the police, the Committee and the public.
He may very well have considered Lusk to be his main "enemy".
It is perhaps also interesting that the Mile End Vigilance Committee was heavily influenced by Jews.
Helge
"Please, Spock, do me a favor ... don't say it's `fascinating'..." Dr. McCoy
"No... but it is...interesting..." Spock (The Ultimate Computer)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2222
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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It is almost certain that if Jack the Ripper had appeared in a court at some time in the mid to late 1880's then he would have been judged by a 'Lusk'. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1719
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 4:27 am: |
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Helge
He may very well have considered Lusk to be his main "enemy".
I think whoever wrote the Lusk letter knew him and had a huge beef with him.
The sending of a kidney, as I have mentioned, would have angered and sickend him. Especially when you bare in mind the emotional personal impact this act would have upon him.
My opinion? Whoever sent Lusk the Kidney (and Im not saying it was Jack) knew a lot about his personal life and I think thats why Lusk was worried.
Regards,
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1882
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 5:21 am: |
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Hi Monty, All,
The JtR A-Z states:
Lusk assumed it was a hoax and the organ probably a dog's, but friends persuaded him to hand it over for medical examination...
In October, after having drawn attention to himself by writing to The Times, Lusk came to fear that his house was being watched by a sinister bearded man, and asked for police protection.
On October 16 Lusk received the sinister package in the post, and doesn't seem to have been too worried that Jack himself may have been out to get him. But he surely must have gone over in his mind who could have had a grudge against him at that time. And Jack seems to me to be a painfully obvious candidate, even if Lusk himself didn't want to believe it.
Love,
Caz
X |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1720
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:37 am: |
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Hi Caz,
The crux is the kidney. Why was a kidney sent to Lusk and not part of the womb?
All Lusk saw was an organ. I doubt he would have known which specific organ it was until it was examined. So no need to be concerned. Then he is told which organ it is, its then that I feel he would have been distressed.
Cheers
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:06 am: |
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Monty,
You are absolutely right!
Helge
"Please, Spock, do me a favor ... don't say it's `fascinating'..." Dr. McCoy
"No... but it is...interesting..." Spock (The Ultimate Computer)
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1722
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
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Helge,
I am?
Like I say, when you take on board what happened to Lusk in the years prior to 1888 you kinda understand the impact a kidney in a box would have upon a man who had lost his wife only years prior to kidney failure brought on by diabetes.
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Monty,
Is this a set up?
Did you think I did not know that?
Helge
"Please, Spock, do me a favor ... don't say it's `fascinating'..." Dr. McCoy
"No... but it is...interesting..." Spock (The Ultimate Computer)
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 664
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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I certainly didn't know about Lusk's wife. It puts a whole new spin on the letter, a very cruel one. But then when was Jack kind?
AP I dont understand your post. Why would Jack have stood before a Lusk?
Just a thought. We have debated for some time why Jack, who was always interested in the womb before, suddenly decided to take Kate's kidney. But if he really hated Lusk and knew about Lusk's wife maybe he planned to use the kidney in just that way and that is why he took it. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 666
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Looked it up -- she died in 1888. It was a fresh wound for Lusk. Also more likely to be generally known as it was recent. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2223
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 2:51 pm: |
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Diana
the main man in the London courts doing all the sentencing during that time period in the LVP just happened to be an Alderman Lusk, so I have always held the thought that the kidney might have been sent to the wrong Lusk.
I think of the incident where an obviously deranged young man - who was described as looking like a 'clerk' - attempted to find the address of a Lusk.
Perhaps the other Lusk had put the young man away in a loony bin? |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 667
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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AAAH the thick plottens!
Seriously, AP, you seem to be our resident expert on research. I really admire the stuff you come up with.
I flatter for a reason .
Is there any way to find out more about the death of Lusk's wife? The A to Z said she was Susannah (nee) Price and she died in 1888. Old George inherited a bundle from her which made him rich. That is another can of worms which may be worth opening.
It would be good to confirm that she actually died of kidney failure and get a few more details about that.
I don't know how you come up with all the tidbits you come up with. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 175
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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And now is the time for me to confess that I actually did not know about the kidney failure at all..
Helge
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 4:51 pm: |
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AP,
There are obvious holes in my knowledge here, I see. Can you give me some specifics on where to read up on the "incident" you described (young man looking like a clerk, etc) I vaguely remember reading something like that once, but can't for the life of me remember where.
Eternally grateful for a hint!
Helge
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2225
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Thanks, but if you want the beef steak of research then please see Chris Scott or Robert, all I do is sort through the old mince and find a few bits of meat.
Understanding search engines is everything, when you sort mince.
Sir Andrew Lusk, Alderman, MP & Lord Mayor was active in court business right through the time period we discuss. He was a close friend of all the major police and Home Office officials we discuss.
A typical case he handled in 1887 was that of Arthur English, an out of work tutor who smashed shop windows in the East End because there were evil spirits grinning at him from behind the windows, and on the night of his arrest had been ‘snowballing’ the moon.
Confined to the local loony bin by Lusk.
I am presently looking at all the cases tried by Lusk during 1887 and early 1888 to see what I can find.
On account of a few bottles of unopened 190% proof rum that are waving at me I am unable to process your kind requests at the very moment, but I see no problem once I am sober.
I’m quite sure either Chris or Robert could supply the required info without the rum interfering with the due process.
The incident with the 'clerk' is reported in The Daily Telegraph of the 20th October 1888. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 180
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Thanks AP,
You are a darling!
I'll look into the Daily telegraph, then.
Helge
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation.
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:18 am: |
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Diana,
Without going into too much detail and working from memory, the details I gave come from private mails from someone who has obtained a copy of Susannahs death certificate.
I shall check my mails later to confirm.
Cheers,
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2235
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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As I said before, I am looking more closely at Sir Andrew Lusk and his possible connections to the Whitechapel Murders, particularly in regard to some confusion as to exactly which Lusk to send the kidney of a murdered woman to when one has some kind of beef with a Lusk.
Well, before Sir Andrew Lusk became a Sir, and was a simple Mister, he was a spectacle maker of Aldgate, but in 1857 his political ambitions got the better of him, and in the ‘Wardmotes’ of that year he was elected an Alderman for Aldgate - later a Sheriff and of course much later as Lord Mayor - but funnily enough he was elected by his fellow East Enders at the usual meeting place of Mitre Street.
So, a very well connected man all round, especially to the area of the Whitechapel Murders.
Can’t delay, I’m just off to join Lord Mayor Lusk, Justice of the Peace Flood-Cutbush and various others at the Lord Mayor’s Banquet to raise funds for the London Hospital. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4592
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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AP, interesting idea that the Ripper may have got the wrong Lusk.
Definitely worth looking at.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2238
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
I'm looking, but if someone could move the brandy bottle in front of the screen it would help.
I know, I'll move it myself.
No more was heard from the retired author for twenty years...
It is certainly worth looking at, Robert, I think it a possibility. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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The posts on this thread are gossip, not method. If you want to understand the signigicance of the Lusk letter and half kidney then you need to learn how to think in terms of the relevant context. And the relevant context is the murder series and attendant public hysteria, not Lusk's wife's dying of diabetes four years previous, etc. Casey Stengel, a famous American major league baseball manager, was called out of retirement in 1960 to manage the New York Mets, an expansion team consisting of young, unproven players. "Doesn't anyone here know how to play this game?" he was often overheard asking rhetorically.
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 621
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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David,
And as the season progressed it became painfully obvious that no one did know how to play -- or at least those few who did (e.g. Richie Ashburn) were no longer able to at a major league level.
Don
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1740
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:27 am: |
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David,
Relevant context....relevant context.
Lusks wife dies of kidney failure brought on by diabetes.
Lusk receives a kidney in the post.
Thats gossip right? not fact?....and you feel that this is irrelevant?
Interesting, why do you state this?
Cheers,
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4608
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:41 am: |
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Monty, could you clarify something? David mentions Lusk's wife dying four years previously, but didn't she die earlier in 1888?
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1741
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:35 am: |
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Robert, David, Diana, all,
I have an apology to make.
Susannah Lusk died due to complications from diabetes. Though kidney failure was not the specific cause of death I do know, as a diabetic, that kidney failure is a major factor in most deaths caused by diabetes. That said, I must stress that kidney failure was not specifically mentioned by my source. My apologies for my misleading information.
Robert,
Mrs Lusk was in a coma for 18 months and 3 days before passing away at 1 Alderney Road on 5th February 1888.
Again, Im sorry for being incorrect.
Regards,
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4609
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:48 am: |
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That's OK, Monty. It's interesting about the kidney and Mrs Lusk, anyway.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2254
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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The named male Lusk mourners at Sir Andrew Lusk's funeral included a Thomas, John and two Andrews so it doesn't look like George was related, unless he died before 1909?
I have always thought their relationship to be that of a young man's imagination anyway.
Meanwhile Robert, if you could remember exactly which 'assurance' company the one Cutbush - was it William? - was gainfully employed at, I would be very grateful. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4614
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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AP, I think that was Edward? I shall try to locate him - he's somewhere on the Boards and somewhere in my archives too. Trouble is where....
Robert |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 669
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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If Jack was sending a kidney to Judge Lusk as opposed to Vigilance Committee Lusk, why then would he write, "Catch me when you can"? Vigilance Committees are supposed to catch people, judges don't. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 750
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 4:22 am: |
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You know the boards have gone a little off kilter when I find myself more in agreement with David Radka than the other posters in a thread... that's just plain disturbing.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1745
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 4:29 am: |
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Dan,
Im not surprised at all.
You two are closer than you think !
Monty
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4617
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 5:52 am: |
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AP, it was Westminster General Life.
Robert |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Don,
Remember Marv Throneberry? What an incredibly inept first baseman he was. And how about Choo Choo Coleman? Coleman was so awkward he didn't even know how to give a bare minimum TV interview with the Mets' own announcer. Ralph Kiner once started an interview with him on "Kiner's Corner," the pre-game show. "Where'd you get your cool nickname, Choo Choo?" he asked him brightly. "I don't know" came the chilling, dead-end reply.
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 622
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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David,
I'll pick this up later today on the Pub Talk>Sports thread, okay?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2255
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Thanks very much for that, Robert
that might fit in with what I'm looking at. Hope so!
Diana
I would have thought the Vigilance committee were more concerned with preventing such terrible crimes rather than actually catching the killer… that was surely the job of the law enforcement agencies under the local control of Alderman Sir Andrew Lusk of the ‘Wardmote’ Aldgate?
It is worth referring back to the ‘Sun’ articles and reading the letter from the doctor concerned - this must be Dr. Brooks - where he refers to the actions he took after Thomas threatened to shoot him:
‘I took the letter to ------ police station that evening and laid the matter before the inspector. He referred me to some parish official living in ------. I saw him and he directed me to go next morning to the workhouse in ------.
When I got there I was informed that a medical officer and a Justice of the Peace had been to ------’s residence to ascertain the state of his mind, and that he had eluded them by jumping over the wall. They advised me to lay the matter before the magistrate at ------ police court and ask him to grant a warrant for ------’s arrest. I did so, but the magistrate said the workhouse authorities must deal with the matter themselves.’
You will note that the good doctor is referred by the police to a parish official in this case, which does show that in such cases when dealing with dangerous lunatics, it is the parish rather than the police that must initiate the legal moves to have the lunatic confined to the parish workhouse or asylum.
Reading Dr. Brooks’ letter, it does sound like this had already been done, and that Thomas had been ordered by the parish official to the workhouse for observation, and that he then subsequently escaped, and this is why we find a medical officer and Justice of the Peace at his house.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that this parish official could have been Alderman Sir Andrew Lusk, the highest official of the parish authorities. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Monty wrote:
"Lusks wife dies of kidney failure brought on by diabetes. Lusk receives a kidney in the post.
Thats gossip right? not fact?....and you feel that this is irrelevant? Interesting, why do you state this?"
>>It is irrelevant because of the illicit process of poorly-conceived British empiricism used on the case evidence. Under its current intellectual structure Ripperology operates at billiard hall-level thought processes. Any uneducated flop in a low dive who can pull a half-baked empirical connection from far out there is not only respected, he's paid.
What else has the diabetes connection got going for it beyond Lusk's wife, Monty? Is this connection supported by a comprehensive thought process taking most or all of the evidence into account as a whole? By what method is the diabetes "evidence" suggested? See what I mean? Any pool hustler can whelp up a quantity, but it takes a thoughtful person to suggest quality.
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