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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 1:04 pm: | 
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Hi all
Have just been reading and re-reading this and of course all the 'stuff' relating to the graffito and the 'apron'!
I agree with Caz,the 'pinny' is one thing and the graffito' is another.....,As today in Goulston St ..'Graffito and 'Graffiti' are rife... who or what they refer to is of course up for anyones ideas! and well.. take a walk around todays Goulston St and think about it!
HEY! whats happeneing to the 10 Bells?? After doing the usual trawl I arrived to find it being 'redocorated' again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh well was good to be there again..its becoming a habit!!
Cheers
Suzi x
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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Hi Suzi!
Good point about the graffiti, IF it also applied to the area in 1888.
The way I know modern grafitti written outdoors is that it is seldom written in such small letters. Sure, people write that small graffiti sometimes, but more often than not that would be indoors using felt pens or ball pens. On doors and walls of public toilets, seems to be a favourite spot.. Of course, for all I know things could be different in London.
How typical, or atypical, is this particular message in question? I'm talking 1880's here, obviously. Is there any way to know for sure?
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Harry Mann
Detective Sergeant
Username: Harry
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 4:43 am: |
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Caz,
There is no litery meaning in the words that has a bearing on the murderer or murders.It is only the physical location that connects the apron ,writing and killer.
Now history tells us that when serial killers do wtite messages,they tend to phrase the message in a way that leaves a connection to the crimes they are commiting.There is no connection in the writing in Goulstan St to any of the murders.
As for motive,I believe it would have been the same in Eddowes case as it was in Nicholls and Chapman murders,that the failure to indulge himself with Stride seen as only a tempory setback,once Edowwes was in his company.
What should be looked for is a motive for the murders to begin,and the writing fails in this respect,in my opinion.
It was not the sort of killings that one might expext to be in retaliation for racial abuse,and the victims not the kind to select for pay back. |
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 5:48 am: |
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Harry,
You may be right and I may be wrong, but here is my reasoning.
The connection IS location. Even the fact that the graffito was written in an awkwardly low height, suggests to me it is "special". But also we must not forget that Leather Apron was known to be connected. Anti semitism was thus allready in the picture. The message mentions the juwes. The murders are certainly an act that someone is to blame for one way or another. The message uses the word blame.
The connections are there. Albeit I admit it is not what I would have written. But then again, I am not Jack, and can anyone possibly claim to understand his mind? Maybe he was a jew. Maybe he hated jews. Maybe he wanted to blame it on the jews. Maybe he though Leather Apron stole his glory. Maybe he wanted to frame Leather Apron. We just don't know,
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 624
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 7:23 am: |
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Hi Adam,
“Why didn't he write it in bigger letters? Well, it could be because he didn't want it to stand out too much, he wanted the apron to be seen first, or else because it would have taken just that much longer to write it in big letters.
The same goes for why he didn't kneel or lie down to write the message. (Not sure if laying down would have even been possible there.).”
OK, let’s forget about big letters. But how much extra time would bending over, kneeling or squatting and getting back up again have taken (I didn’t mention lying down)?? Surely that can and could be done in no more than 2-3 seconds, certainly if someone’s in a hurry.
“If he had to flee in hurry, and a real hurry, then it would have taken just that tiny bit longer to get up and out of there.”
The more Jack would have been in a hurry, the less likely it seems to me that he would have written the graffito in the first place.
“Why not? When the writing and apron became public knowledge via the press, and that Sir Charles Warren had ordered it be scrubbed off, not even photographed, there was more of a public outcry anyway. Anything was enough to set off fear in the public in 1888. Anyone could basically point to a person and say "That's Jack the Ripper!" and there would be a mob chasing after them. So if it was that easy to set them off, what's a bloody apron and a possible message/clue from the killer going to do to them?
It is very important to remember the general fear and hysteria in the public at the time. As I said, it took very little to set off an outcry, and more fear.”
What I wrote was that in my view, if he did write the graffito, he didn’t do it with the CLEAR intent to heighten the fear among the public. As it isn’t even really clear that he wrote it in the first place (our discussions prove that), how can his intent be considered clear?
All the best,
Frank
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 625
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 9:33 am: |
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Hi Helge,
Although you make some interesting conversation, I have some comments.
First of all, I don’t think it’s an established fact that the writing was 1.2 m or 4 ft above the ground. In a report dated 6 November Superintendent Thomas Arnold, who personally saw the graffito, gives the only clue (as far as I know) of the height at which it was written: “… that it was in such a position that it would have rubbed by the shoulders of person passing in & out of the Building.”
This could very well mean that someone standing on his feet wrote it at shoulder height. Certainly if it was someone a little shorter than the average man that seems very feasible to me. If I kneel down (I’m 1.73 m or 5 ft 8 tall) and would write something on a wall I think I wouldn’t write it much higher than 1.10 m or 3 ft 8 from the ground.
“Sure, people write that small graffiti sometimes, but more often than not that would be indoors using felt pens or ball pens. On doors and walls of public toilets, seems to be a favourite spot.”
This is interesting. I see similarities here with the entrance. Not that your suggestion wasn’t a good one – it was - but might the measurements and confinement, if you will, of the small semi-indoors entrance have ‘caused’ the small lettering?
Something people seem to forget is what it was that led the Ripper to Goulston Street. They seem to isolate what was found in the entrance from what transpired before he got to the entrance. He had committed at least one murder shortly before and he must have realised the very real possibility that the police would be on the lookout for him when he arrived there. And even if they weren’t looking out for him yet as a result of the murders, he had to be very wary of them anyway, seeing he was carrying a bloody apron and some human organs with him. Like I wrote earlier, perhaps his initial rushed feeling had subsided somewhat by then, but he must still have been quite eager to get to his hide-out before he was possibly stopped and searched.
The fact that the Ripper had silenced his victims before they knew what hit them, that he probably cut their throats in such a way that he wouldn’t get all blood spattered, all the while also focusing on especially sounds that could indicate someone coming and that, each and every time, he had gotten away without making much sound and attracting attention IMHO points to a practical and very focused & efficient man, at least at the times of the murders.
Except for, quite possibly, the Lusk letter, there are no indications that the Ripper actually communicated with the outside world (unless, of course, you believe some of the other letters were written by Jack). The fact that the message was put in a sort of roundabout way and that it wasn’t clearly connected to the apron, in my view lends credence to the notion that, however coincidental it seems, it wasn’t the Ripper who chalked down the graffito.
But – that’s just my take on things.
All the best,
Frank
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 56
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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Frank,
Good points. Although I would find it difficult to write at 4 feet myself, perhaps the Ripper was particularly small. It is possible.
But that is if the writing was at 4 feet. I took the estimated height from these boards and based my thinking on that. On rethinking this based on your quote, I would estimate "shoulder height" to be close to 1.5 meters, and that is closer to 5 feet than 4. If that is the case, my argument fails. The message could then very well have been written standing up.
Adam, where did you get the 4 feet?! (Actually I got the 4 feet from Adams post on this thread, and as no one seemed to disagree, I figured it must have been kosher)
Thanks Frank for pointing that out.
Sincerely Helge
(Message edited by helge on June 04, 2005)
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Julie Lambert
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Many people have commented on the difficulty of writing in a "good schoolboy hand" in the dark but have any of you tried to write well on a vertical surface? It is not at all easy.
However, good handwriting would not have been that unusual in those days, even amongst the poorest. Most basic state education concentrated on reading and writing and many poor and under-educated people had good handwriting.
I think it highly unlikely that the killer wrote the message. It could have been placed there a few hours prior to the killing, in response to the widely expressed belief that the killer was a Jew. It is unclear whether the message was in support of Jews or incriminating them. The double negative in the message makes the writer's meaning unclear.
The proximity of the piece of apron to the writing is interesting. What I think ilkely is that the killer was wiping the knife and possibly his hands as he strode along and he cast the piece of apron into a dark corner as he went.
Today, such a clue would disclose vital evidence.
I don't think we will ever know who the killer was. I believe him to have been a local man - or someone working locally who knew the area well - but I do not think it was anyone famous or significant. Today he would be considered a sex killer who displays traits of both an organised and a disorganised killer. With forensic science being what it is today, such killers are becoming easier to carch but back then such a random killer would have been almost impossible to catch unless caught in the act ( as Peter Sutcliffe almost was).
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Hi Phil,
Can I suggest that anyone writing anti-semitic insults, in a building inhabited by Jews, would be likely to be furtive, and thus kneel.
You can suggest it, but it makes no sense unless the majority of racist graffiti is done this way - it isn't. It is usually an act of high bravado; the 'louder' the taunt the better, as far as the bigot is concerned.
The message above the apron may not have an obvious meaning to us, but it did to the author, and its positioning, neatness and legibility point to deliberation and purpose, rather than reckless defacing - all IMHO of course.
Hi Suzi,
I agree with Caz,the 'pinny' is one thing and the graffito' is another.....,As today in Goulston St ..'Graffito and 'Graffiti' are rife...
Well I think the pinny and graffito are connected, and we just don't know how much graffiti was around in 1888. You don't see graffiti constantly being removed from walls today as soon as it appears, and if it was as rife then as it is now, I should imagine it wasn't always removed immediately then either. If this message was the exception, it was because it came to special police attention on account of the apron.
Hi Harry,
Now history tells us that when serial killers do wtite messages,they tend to phrase the message in a way that leaves a connection to the crimes they are commiting.There is no connection in the writing in Goulstan St to any of the murders.
But if the author was Jack, he would be connecting his words to his actions that night, and connecting Kate's pinny with his words. Isn't it conceivable that the mind of a serial killer, especially within a short time of murdering and mutilating his latest victim, would communicate his thoughts imperfectly to the public, and hardly in a disciplined, rational and easily deciphered way?
The message is no simpler to interpret if it was written by someone other than Jack. In the dark and wet, and in a limited space, I would have expected a terse "You Juwes are bad news", if at all.
Hi Julie,
It could have been placed there a few hours prior to the killing, in response to the widely expressed belief that the killer was a Jew.
I think that's a very logical suggestion, but for one thing:
If the message was written by anyone with the murders and Leather Apron in mind, surely by far the most likely suspect for its authorship is Jack himself! What are the chances of Jack coincidentally dropping half of Kate's pinny right beneath a message directly related to his work, but written earlier by a member of the public?
Why complicate things, if you believe the message could relate to the murders? Serial killers like to blame others for their own shortcomings - blame is a word that is dearer perhaps to their hearts than to others. So what could be simpler than Jack relating blame and Jews in the same breath, considering the Leather Apron scare and the innocent Pizer recently being cleared of all blame?
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on June 06, 2005) |
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 66
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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Hear, hear, Caz!
Good analysis. Need I say more?
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 7:43 am: |
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The message above the apron may not have an obvious meaning to us
The best suggestion that I've read is:
"Jews won't take the blame for anything"
(Written by someone who thought a Jew should have taken the blame for something!)
What's wrong with that?
It's certainly a lot more straightforward than any of the suggestions I've read as to why the Ripper would have written such a message.
Chris Phillips
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 594
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:45 am: |
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Caz - thank you for saying that I am permitted to make suggestions. My earlier post was just that, a suggestion.
I note, however, that it frightens you enough for you to want to make it some general theory or absolute so you can dismiss it.
If you check back you'll find, i think, that I was simply offering another option as to why graffito might be written by someone kneeling. If the writer was jack, there was no reason for to kneel either.
I'm with Chris on this one, ladies.
Phil |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1671
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Guys,
White on white?
White on Black??
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
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Chris,
But even "Jews won't take the blame for anything" could be interpreted two ways.
Or is it just me?
Folks, lets agree to have opinions..
It would be so empty here without them.
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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Helge
But even "Jews won't take the blame for anything" could be interpreted two ways.
Or is it just me?
Folks, lets agree to have opinions..
It would be so empty here without them.
I can't immediately see the second interpretation of that phrase, but please do feel free to explain the one you're thinking of.
Of course people have different opinions about this, and I don't think there's any real evidence either way about the possibility of a connection to the murders.
I'm just saying that I'm not convinced the graffito is as cryptic as some people would make out - in fact, I think there's a straightforward interpretation if it's not Ripper-related, while the Ripper-related ones are rather convoluted.
Chris Phillips
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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Monty,
whats with the logic?
yeah white on black is what i would bet on somehow. Is that your point?
Jenni |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 3:22 pm: |
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Jenni
I didn't understand Monty's comment either, until I read Howard Brown's and Neil Bell's articles from the current Ripperologist.
I think Monty is saying the reason that the graffito was fairly low down is because the surface of the wall higher up was white, so the chalk wouldn't have shown up.
Chris Phillips
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
No need to get out of your pram. Let's go through it again.
You wrote:
Can I suggest that anyone writing anti-semitic insults, in a building inhabited by Jews, would be likely to be furtive, and thus kneel. [my emphasis]
And I said yes, you can suggest it (as in 'it is possible', not as in 'you may'), but pointed out that I didn't agree that it was 'likely' that racist graffito artists would kneel furtively when defacing property.
You may make as many suggestions as you wish, and naturally I may disagree with one or more of them. But where did you get the idea that this one 'frightens' me? Sorry to disappoint you, but none of your ideas have the power to frighten me.
In any case, it appears that the writer may not have been kneeling after all, and the height of the message may have been determined by the limited black background for the white chalk to show up on.
But I still find it a bit of a coincidence: in mid-September Leather Apron is officially cleared of blame regarding the recent atrocities in the area that are on everyone's lips; a couple of weeks later, a message is discovered in the entrance to the Dwellings, stating that Jews won't take the blame for anything, on exactly the same night as two further atrocities have just occurred.
One doesn't even need Kate's bloody apron to theorise that the message may have been a reference to the recent news - unwelcome for many - that the Jewish suspect had been allowed to go free.
It's little wonder the message worried the police if they saw it as a taunt: "Look what happens when you set the Jew free - more murders".
Love,
Caz
X |
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 70
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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Chris,
What I'm trying to say is that different people may read different meanings into the same sentence, as in
"Jews won't take the blame for ANYTHING",
or,
"Jews WON'T take the blame for anything"
Different emphasis can give a slightly, or in some cases not so slightly, different meaning to almost anything. And who can say which interpretation is right?
Actually Chris, I agree your interpretation of the original graffito is a probable one. But my mind is not locked to any one interpretation yet (but of course I am human and lean more towards my own pet theory!)
The "Folks, lets agree to have opinions.." was a remark to Phil and Caz's little "disagreement".
Monty,
I have been pondering over your meaning as well! But actually "shoulder height" is not so low after all. A man, say, 1.60 m high would easily write in that height standing up. But obviously no one would write white on white.. Thanks for explaining that Chris! I was blank on that one until I read that last post of yours LOL.
Where in fact do the notion of the 4 feet high grafitto come from? I make "shoulder height" closer to 5.
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 595
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Sorry Caz, was it something I said?  |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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After Caroline Morris's last message, I'm still totally baffled by what alternative idea she has to its being "a bit of a coincidence".
Are we meant to think that:
(1) a stupid Gentile Ripper wrote this, and for some reason wanted to point out that the Jews wouldn't be blamed for the murders because the murderer wasn't Jewish?
(2) a resentful Jewish Ripper wrote it, to point out that the Jews had been blamed so often that he was now going to do something worth the blaming?
(3) a devious Gentile Ripper wrote it, to try to cast suspicion on the Jews, on the plan that everyone would assume number (2) was the explanation?
I suppose the idea must be that it was one of these, but none of them carries much conviction to my mind.
Chris Phillips
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2570
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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4' at shoulder height eh?..........perhaps we should reconsider the Ripper's height........
Ah now this could explain a lot........
Suzi |
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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Can't we all go metrical?
haha
There is a reference to 4 feet in one of the earlier posts on this thread. That can't be shoulder height? But those feet gives me no "internal" reference whatsoever, being metrical. But 4 feet is, according to a swift calculation, only 1.20 meters, and that IS pretty low as shoulder height for a man.
I know a girl that size, though, she's just the right size and perfect in any way, and her smile is just wonderful..but I'm digressing!
Sincerely Helge
(Message edited by helge on June 06, 2005)
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
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Hi Chris P,
You are not 'meant' to think anything - you are permitted to think whatever you like! 
But seriously, do you think there is absolutely no chance that the message about Jews being blamed could have been a reference to the murders, or specifically to the Jewish suspect recently cleared of blame?
If so, what is your reasoning?
Love,
Caz
X |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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Caroline Morris
But seriously, do you think there is absolutely no chance that the message about Jews being blamed could have been a reference to the murders, or specifically to the Jewish suspect recently cleared of blame?
On the contrary, I already wrote:
Of course people have different opinions about this, and I don't think there's any real evidence either way about the possibility of a connection to the murders.
By which I meant, there's no real evidence that there was a connection to the murders, and there's no real evidence that there wasn't.
I hope that's clear enough.
I find myself in the novel position of having a discussion with you, in which I have an open mind, and you are putting forward a proposition ("I think the pinny and graffito are connected").
I'm all ears for your explanation of how and why you think they were connected.
Chris Phillips
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 588
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
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It really would be helpful to know how prevalent graffiti were in the East End at the time. Walter Dew writes that it was common, but since he is so often wrong on the details I am loathe to take him at his word. Since scrawling names and messages on walls is almost as old as the written word (gangs working on the pyramids did it and most of what little we know of proto-Latin comes from graffiti) it would be easy to assume there was some in the area at the time, but that is only surmise.
There may be in letters to the editor and the like complaints about graffiti. Or sermons against the practice, questions raised in political discussions, memoirs that mention the scrawlings, something that indicates it was common. Of course, even if every drawing and document was trawled and nothing turned up that still wouldn't prove it wasn't common.
Sure would be nice to know, though.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
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Hi again all,
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. Most things have already been answered, and I don't know if I could add much else, but I'd just like to get back to a few earlier messages.
Frank:
"OK, lets forget about big letters. But how much extra time would bending over, kneeling or squatting and getting back up again have taken (I didnt mention lying down)?? Surely that can and could be done in no more than 2-3 seconds, certainly if someones in a hurry."
I agree with you that it wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds at the most, Frank. But those few seconds could have been crucial if he only heard someone coming at the last moment. Furthermore, we don't know how agile Jack was. If he was fit, he could jump up and run in a second or 2. If he wasn't so fit, it may have taken longer. I think it's fair to say, based on the escapes he made, that he was reasonably quick and agile, but we don't know anything definite about that.
And I know you didn't mention lying down, I just added that into the mix myself. Sorry for any confusion there.
"The more Jack would have been in a hurry, the less likely it seems to me that he would have written the graffito in the first place."
Frank, I'm talking about if someone unexpectedly came along that he didn't know about, and he had to get out of there. He may have felt safe writing the message when he started, but someone could have walked along the street or something that he wasn't expecting, is what I meant. It's certainly possible, IMO.
"What I wrote was that in my view, if he did write the graffito, he didnt do it with the CLEAR intent to heighten the fear among the public. As it isnt even really clear that he wrote it in the first place (our discussions prove that), how can his intent be considered clear?"
What other intents could there be, Frank? If he wrote the message, then he was smart enough to know that it would make it to the press, and subsequently into the public anyway. IMO, he wrote the message so that it would be viewed as some kind of clue to the murderer, but a clue which the police couldn't crack, which made the public more fearful. That's just my opinion, though.
Helge:
"Adam, where did you get the 4 feet?! (Actually I got the 4 feet from Adams post on this thread, and as no one seemed to disagree, I figured it must have been kosher)"
Wow, this certainly goes round in a circle!
I got the 4 feet from Howard Brown's article "Off The Wall" in the January 2005 issue of "Ripperologist" !!! But after re-reading that part of the article, I realise that I was mistaken, and it wasn't definitely 4 feet off the ground.
To quote from Howard's article, this is what it said:
"...Paul Begg has suggested that each line might have occupied a single brick. I tried it using the 'ballpark' estimate of 3/4-inch capital letters, as Halse mentioned, and could not do it on numerous attempts. Experiment #1 was determined to be impossible to do considering the length of the bricks and the words that had to fit 'proportionately', as Halse stated. So I wrote each word of the graffito at a height of exactly 4 feet from the ground, one word to a brick for three lines of brick. This seemed to be a far more reasonable method as the chalk would have undoubtedly broken going laterally across the mortar between the bricks. Besides that, it complied with the 'good schoolboy hand' reported by Halse."
So there you go. That was where I got 4 feet from, but I guess after reading it 4 months ago, my memory failed me and I mis-interpreted what I had read.
Perhaps if How Brown reads this message, he could throw a little more light on the subject?
I think that was all I needed to get back to, for now anyway. Sorry for the confusion there guys! Interesting stuff to discuss, anyway!
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 3:34 am: |
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Jenn, Chris and Helge,
Chris is correct in his post about my post.
"I have been pondering over your meaning as well! But actually "shoulder height" is not so low after all. A man, say, 1.60 m high would easily write in that height standing up. But obviously no one would write white on white.. Thanks for explaining that Chris! I was blank on that one until I read that last post of yours LOL.
Where in fact do the notion of the 4 feet high grafitto come from? I make "shoulder height" closer to 5. "
I believe the notion of 4 ft comes from a news report (How is sure to correct me if Im wrong) stating that the dado was around that height. The black half being the bottom half, white half the top. Therefore logic dictates that the writing was at around that height. However, what must be taken on board are two importatnt issues.
1) The only official location for the writing is given by Warren as the door jamb and at shoulder height. The rest is supposition.
2) The description of the dado position is for inside the stairwell, not the door jamb itself. The door jamb has never been described and therefore a positioning of shoulder height given by Warren (backed by Arnold I may add) is plausible if the jamb was painted all black.
Regards,
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 3:51 am: |
|
Thanks, Monty, for clearing that up!
If the dado was not necessarily on the door jamb, it must be disregarded, IMO.
The only indication we have is then (as you say) Warren's description.
To me, shoulder height means closer to 5 feet than 4, and most people would easily write in that height standing up.
Learning something every day.
Sincerely Helge
(Message edited by helge on June 07, 2005)
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 74
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:04 am: |
|
Oh wait, actually, I'm still confused 
http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/st._james_gazette/881012.html
"The writing was in a good round hand, upon the black dado of the passage wall, and appeared to have been recently written. The capital letters were about three quarters of an inch in height, the others being in proportion."
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:28 am: |
|
Helge,
And that is the confusing report !
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1031
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 4:45 am: |
|
Monty
1) The only official location for the writing is given by Warren as the door jamb and at shoulder height. The rest is supposition.
2) The description of the dado position is for inside the stairwell, not the door jamb itself. The door jamb has never been described and therefore a positioning of shoulder height given by Warren (backed by Arnold I may add) is plausible if the jamb was painted all black.
According to Halse's inquest testimony, as reported by the Daily Telegraph, the writing was "on the black facia of the wall", and he later says "The writing was on the black bricks, which formed a kind of dado, the bricks above being white."
Long says "The apron was lying in the passage leading to the staircase of Nos. 106 to 119, a model dwelling-house. Above on the wall was written in chalk, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.""
[my emphasis]
http://casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html
This seems to be in conflict with Warren's statement, quoted in Howard Brown's article, that the writing was on the jamb of the open archway or doorway.
Anyway, unless Halse's testimony is to be disregarded, it was on the dado, so the "white on black" argument is relevant to its height.
Chris Phillips
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1675
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:05 am: |
|
Chris,
With all due respect, Halse does not give as precise a location as Warren does in his report.
In the passage, writing on the black fascia...where is that?
Repectfully,
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Harry Mann
Detective Sergeant
Username: Harry
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:15 am: |
|
Caz,
I do not think the writing is imperfect.Only your interpretation might be.I believe Chris Phillips to be near the mark in what he writes.
Only this week I read in an English paper the remark,"I do not have no friends now",so the style of explaining ones thoughts,is not so different,and the meaning conveyed by that message easy to understand.More easy if your own style of grammer enables one to express thoughts in the same manner.
There is good reason to connect the apron piece to the killer's presence,but none to connect the writing with him. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:25 am: |
|
Monty
The point I'm making is that Halse definitely says the writing was on black bricks, and that the bricks above were white.
So if this is accepted, your "white on black" argument is relevant to the discussion about the height of the graffito.
To some extent, "jamb versus wall" is a separate question. But looking at the photo of the doorway elsewhere on the site, the jamb does look rather narrow to take the message:
http://casebook.org/victorian_london/sitepics.w-goul.html
Chris Phillips
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:41 am: |
|
Hi Harry,
I am hardly the first person to have trouble interpreting the words. What is 'my' interpretation? I have made several suggestions, but I don't think I have claimed any of them as the perfect explanation.
Why do you think this 'easy-to-understand' statement was written in that particular place on that particular day in 1888? And how long would it have remained there, had the latest victim's apron piece not been left beneath it?
Love,
Caz
X |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 5:45 am: |
|
Chris,
My apologies, I misunderstood your point.
Halse does indeed state that. Remind me, I cannot remember off hand but does Halse state the height of the black bricks or is it just in the newspapers?
It looks narrow, but having viewed the site best I can I feel it can be done.
My view I stress...obviously.
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2493
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 6:28 am: |
|
Hi,
good, thats what i thought you meant. And i am inclined to agree with you that the chalk would not be written on white. because it was white chalk!
Jenni
ps sorry i seemed to have caused confusion everytime i posted on this thread! |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 6:39 am: |
|
Monty
No - I can't see any mention of the height of the dado in the inquest report.
Do you think the door jamb of the doorway is still intact? It sounds as though you've had a closer look than I have (when I saw it the doorway was occupied by a refreshment kiosk, and I didn't have the bravado to march up to the proprietor and interrogate him). For that matter, if that doorway has been remodelled, I wonder if either of the matching ones is in its original condition?
Chris Phillips
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 7:24 am: |
|
Hi Chris,
Ive had a look at the jamb yes, for the same reason you questioned the width.
As far as I could see, though the 'stairwell' inside has indeed been remodelled (stairs removed etc), the actual entrance and jamb width looks the same as the photo. There are other entrances also (either side and opposite) that were obviously built to the same spec. Again, though altered the jambs width seems the same.
Next time I visit I shall try and measure the jamb (unless someone wants to beat me to it). Im sure I could cajole the proprietor by purchasing one of his lovely kebabs and promise advertisement (in my resulting post of course) on the site !
Monty has the bravado.....booze induced obviously !
Cheers,
Monty
PS Ivor Edwards, I think, may be able to help with this.
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1034
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 7:53 am: |
|
Monty
Thanks.
I suppose it's a relatively minor point, though I think it does bear on the likelihood of the graffito being linked to the apron in a couple of respects:
(1) There's the argument about whether the murderer would have had enough light to write by, as outlined by Neil Bell. If it's on the jamb, there is only the distance from the lamp to consider. If it's on the wall inside, would that wall actually have been in shadow? (It depends on the geometry, of course.)
(2) If the apron was lying "in the passage", rather than in the doorway, and the writing was on the door jamb, it doesn't sound as though the writing was directly above the apron.
Chris Phillips
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1678
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 9:05 am: |
|
Chris,
No worries.
A minor point? Maybe. Interesting? To me, yes.
Your first point.....or rather Mr Bells,
The lamp distance from the entrance was 20 feet. Good gas lamps, so Ive been told, give light for around 14 feet. This leaves 6ft of darkness. Whilst I concede that writing could be done in the dark I find it difficult to understand how it could be done in small, neat letters and on individual brickwork. Another point, the other entrance was closer and may have offered more light.
If written inside then yes, it was written in a worst position than the jamb.
As for point 2, yes I agree. However, is it possible that the jamb is part of the passage?
Cheers,
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
|
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 78
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 9:45 am: |
|
Monty,
No light stops at 14 feet, leaving the rest in darkness. Light gradually fades with distance (but you knew that!)
What I'm trying to say. Is there any way to find out how many candelas those lamps where. A simple experiment or calculation would then determine exactly how much light were available.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/isql.html
(Heck, I'm inspired by Diana)
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
|
Helge,
Curses.....you saw through me !
Yes, I did know that. I was trying to get across the point (albeit sloppily) that at around (note the around) 14 feet, the light given off by a gas lamp stops being an aid to sight.
Each lamp gives off different degrees of light, this due to dodgy mantles, deficient gas etc. Each lamp is different. Paul Begg mentioned to me that The Whitechapel District Board of Works maintained the lamps in the area (in 1888) and it may be possible to track down some of their records regarding individual lamps.
Its the best I can give you.
Cheers,
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 592
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
|
Monty,
This seems to be the place to find you for now Mate, so when you have time I have a question for you over on the Eddowes>Movements... thread. Thanks.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
|
Monty, Thanks a lot.
I have been trying to get information about which lamps were used and their average output, etc, but no luck. I accept that your statement "at 14 feet, the light given off by a gas lamp stops being an aid to sight", is true in general, but sometimes you know we can see pretty well using only our night vision. I once changed a tire on my car with only moonlight to help me.
And at 14 feet I guess most people could read at least headlines in a newspaper (or graffito?) from the light of a single candle.
Ok, I'll try to get some more info.
Thanks again.
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
|
Hi Monty, and Chris
I have a photo(somewhere) that I took of the buildings on the opposite side of the street some 10 years ago. The buildings are identical to the one where the grafitti was written. In my photo the black bricked door jamb(dado) is clearly visible. I remember closely inspecting those black bricks, and they were of the glazed variety, i.e. just imagine a brick coated with the same substance that coats a tile.
The black glazed bricks of the graffiti doorway, were removed when the doorway was converted into a counter to serve take away snacks, i.e. chips, kebabs, etc,
Regards Cludgy |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1681
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 4:04 am: |
|
Don, Helge, Cludgy,
Don,
See you there later,
Helge,
You see, your views are not that far from mine. However, I then started to look into the gas lamps question and the research and advice I was given basically boiled down to one point. Gas lamps were at best markers and gave very little aid to sight after a point of around 14 feet. And this at mantle height, not shoulder height, so the distance may be less.
That said I do understand you point, and more importantly, I think its valid.
Cludgy,
I came across the glazed brick also, only on the next entrance though....and the glazed brickwork was sepia coloured.
Chalk on glazed brick came out blurry (I did an experiment with chalk, Browns not the only one to do hands on work!). Could this account for Swansons 'blurred' report?
Cheers,
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Harry Mann
Detective Sergeant
Username: Harry
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 5:36 am: |
|
Caz,
What seems to be the problem,in my opinion,is not in the interpretation of the wording,but in connecting the meaning to the murders,and in my opinion there is no connection.
In most,if not all written communications by perpetrators of crime,the connection to the crime is easy to understand.It may reveal a motive,may be a taunt,a demand and even the location of unknown crime,but at least there is a distinct connection shown.The graffito in Goulstan street shows none,and I believe,if it was by the killer,it should.
You may say,because it was located near the apron piece,it needed no meaningfll message,but without meaning,all it does,in respect of the killing,is do what the apron piece does,and that is tell us the killer was there.Now I do not think the killer was that crazy and disturbed, he had to leave two items to prove his presence. |
Helge Samuelsen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Helge
Post Number: 83
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
|
Monty,
In some ways the poor light from the gas lamps could actually have aided Jack. Sounds counterintuitive, but hear me out. If most of the streets were dark, and Jack stayed in the shadows (for obvious reasons) most of the time, his eyes would have been accustomed to low light conditions, and thus he may not have needed much light to write that graffito at all..
Actually the police constables, with their lanterns, would have much less night vision, and would have more easily missed things in semi-shadow.
What I have come up with so far is that certain street lamps back then would give off light equivalent to 14-36 candelas (some types more, some types less), and that should actually have cast enough light onto the wall, that the lux involved (light per square meter) would enable someone to see. Not well, but perhaps well enough.
This is not an assumption. Using the lowest estimate on the lamps (14 candela), we arrive at 0.07 lux at the distance involved (20 feet). The sensitivity of the human eye is normally considered to be 0.046 lux. (and that is actually pretty damned good)
The trouble is, I have no clue yet as to the actual type of lamps involved on that street! So my calculations are still only hypothetical. What kind of mantle was used, for example? (Rhetorical question, I'm not sure anyone knows at this point)
Sincerely Helge
Fascinating! (Mr Spock raises an eyebrow)
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