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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 498
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 7:58 am: | 
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I am interested to know how other's imagine (because that is what historical reconstruction effectively is) what life in Whitechapel in 1888 would have been like.
To give on example. MJK had had a meal of fish and potatoes before her death, but I am aware of no reports of their being cutlery, plates or food containers (apart from a little tea etc) in her room. So where did she eat this meal?
We hear reports (as in the Tabram case) of residents of the dwellings going shopping for basic food-stuffs in the small hours. But Kelly - kettle apart - had nothing to cook on and nowhere to keep stores of food.
I can only assume that Kelly and Barnett bought food, and other necessities (candles etc) as and when they could afford them or needed them. Talk about a hand to mouth existence!!
On a slightly different topic, Cross left for work on the morning Nichols was killed, at a time most people today would regard as staggeringly early. Yet the streets were still relatively deserted, though he did encounter Paul.
How busy do others see the backstreets of Whitechapel being back then? I say backstreets, because my assumption is that the main thoroughfares would have been busy with pedestrians and traffic most of the time.
And what about the Jewish community? Did East End Jews keep the Sabbath? Would relatively prosperous members of that community like Lawende and Hyam Levy have been unusual in being about in the small hours?
I'd be interested to hear from other posters of any insights, examples or ideas they have of life in 1888. Alternatively descriptions which explain how you perceive life to have been, generally, or specifically.
Thanks,
Phil |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Phil,
One of the best resources I have found is Jack London's book, The People of The Abyss. It is a little later, but gives a very good picture of life in Whitechapel. JTR even has a small mention.
I warn you, it is very depressing reading, but gives a true feel to life during those times. Well worth the read. 
Hope this helps,
Carolyn
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 503
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 2:54 pm: |
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I dipped into it long ago, and it gave me the horrors, Carolyn.
As I recall, London actually went and lived among the poor fro a time and was often physically revolted by the conditions in the doss-houses etc.
Thanks for reminding me [shudder]!! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1906
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 3:40 pm: |
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I don"t really buy all that stuff.There will always be some messianic type rarin" to get stuck into poverty---like the girl in Jarvis Cocker"s song,"Common People" a rich chick yearning "to live like common people do"---well they deserve all they get!
The cameos that come through from those times are of people struggling to make ends meet
and having quite a rough time of it.But they mostly seem to get on with life reasonably well.
There were lots of good folk living ordinary decent lives such as those who tell of their activities outside their front doors on the night of the Berner Street Murder.There were all those involved in politics in the variety of meeting halls that were all over Whitechapel...
then there were the Missionary societies,soup kitchens,Synagogues,a swimming pool ,laundry, pubs ofcourse,clubs.In fact there is a very colourful account of Whitechapel High Street on a busy day that makes it sound fascinating and buzzing with life.Its somewhere on the Whitechapel thread ,Phil, and is well worth reading.
On your question about where Mary would have eaten I think they had pies and various food produce from pubs and street stalls.
Dirty linen was sent to the laundry.
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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Natalie,
I think that is kinda harsh. True, he did go to Whitechapel to live with the poor but he had no preconceived ideas of what life would be like. He was not on a "mission", he did not feel sorry for the people or felt he wanted to help them. He was not out to save them. He did it for his own research and experience.
Jack London was an excellent author and the book could have been too preachy or trying to pity the situation. Jack London wrote what he saw and experienced, without overkill and judgement.
Just my humble opinion,
Carolyn |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Carolyn,
You are absolutely right.I was actually confusing him with another man who did go "slumming" and then wrote in a rather despairing way about it. I cant remember his name,only that they touched on him in a TV prgramme not that long ago.So my apologies there.
Thats the second important mistake I have made on here today!Must be tired!
But too true Jack London was an excellent writer.
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 523
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Totally.
Actually, having only finished reading PEOPLE OF THE ABYSS last week I found that London WAS very sympathetic. The whole book is a Socialist document on the inequalities of the system and damns the rich and powerful again and again - though not with subjective opinions, but with the factual statistics. However, London would obviously have used these statistics to illustrate what he believed - correctly - was an overwhelming social injustice.
PEOPLE OF THE ABYSS is one of the best books ever written - and it would make a fantastic stage play and TV documentary!!!
I twice had tears in my eyes reading it. One account of the young man who lost his job and was convicted for trying to drown himself, and the other of the family man who when his family faced destitution killed them all.
It is indeed hugely depressing, but it is a very moving testament.
I believe it warrants a place in every Ripperologist's collection just as much as their Sugden, Evans, Rumbelow and Begg.
And on top of that I love some of the photos. I am right THERE in a few of them. The two guys in the doorway of the dosshouse with the wet cobbles... classic...
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 816
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 7:52 pm: |
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Phil,
I am aware of no reports of their being cutlery, plates or food containers
You will find a report of there being crockery and cutlery in the room in my book - page 213.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
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Philip,
I agree that London was sympathetic in his approach, but I also feel he wasn't on the save the poor mission. He went as an explorer, as he said in the preface. He went to see for himself the conditions rather than just reading other peoples accounts. Especially those who had never lived under those conditions. He wanted to "see" the conditions through his own eyes. He knew the political machinery was a junk heap at the time, mismanaging the people. He wanted to see for himself the people and how the people lived. Some people of the time viewed it as not living, and these poor where one step above animals. Jack London viewed the man through the man himself. And he kept his opinions very minimal and presented the facts.
I agree it is a fantastic book!!!
A must for students of the time period.
Carolyn  |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1911
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:52 am: |
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Alan,your book is excellent too.I love the way you have introduced the politics, and the other crimes of those times sandwiched between Jack"s crimes.Very apposite and moving,and crucially a deeply informative book on so many levels.From what Carolyn and Philip are saying above I think they will also appreciate your work.
I doubt anyone reading your book could ever be anything but moved on reading the account of the eviction and subsequent death of the 80 year old James Dunne who had paid his rent religiously for over 60 years. His Landlord,Captain Singleton ,despite knowing about his age and need to sit by the fire and recover from bronchitis ,had him evicted and left him sitting on a stool by the roadside amidst his broken bits of furniture.
This clarifies some things for me about why the Fenians were at it like they were!
Thanks Alan
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 525
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:48 am: |
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Alan - Nats appraisal above is the best review I could have seen for getting your book.
Carolyn - I do agree with you! I am aware that London did not go off on a mission and intended the report to be objective as he made very clear, but what I am saying is that his findings made it impossible for him to be anything other than subjective - which is also right and proper. The only accounts of those holding the reins of power are damning ones. It leaves you in no doubt that London feels the cause of the poverty lies with the distribution of wealth.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 7:54 am: |
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Natalie,
Thanks for sharing that. I will have to read Alan's book now, as it does sound very interesting.
Philip,
Yeah, buddy! Glad we agree. 
Carolyn
(Message edited by Carolyn on May 11, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1912
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:35 pm: |
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Thats really good to know ,Philip!
Carolyn,
Glad you found it helpful.
Natalie
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 564
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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Hi,
I would recommend (if you can get hold of a copy)
"East End 1888" by William J. Fishman. It was published by Duckworth, and is a bit hard to get hold off, but it is worth tracking down.
Rob |
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