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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 4:07 am: | 
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Hi,
The vast majority of us followers of jack' reject Patricia Cornwalls book as fantasy and a waste of her time and considerable money,
However her research that was unable to positively point the finger at Sickert led to forensic experts notably Mr Peter Bowyer stating it was beyond doubt that Sickert wrote ripper letters as those letters came from a batch of only 24 sheets that were the property of his mother.
This should be taken seriously as this batch of 24 sheets was as unique as fingerprinting.
So here we have absolute proof that Walter Sickert used his mothers stationary on at least three occasions, and at least two ripper letters matched that batch of paper.
My question is ' Would we disregard more higher up the list of suspects ie,Tumblety, Gull, Druitt, Barnett, kosminsky etc, if it was proven that they wrote letters to the press?.
I would suggest that work on the erection of Gallows would be commenced without question.
I Appreciate writing hoax letters to the police and press does not make someone a mass murderer , but it as a serious criminal offence, and if one takes the mans morbid fascination with murder and crime scenes , and isolating himself for long periods of time with a red hankerchief around his neck.we have a very sinister character indeed, and i for one feel should be taken rather seriously as a candidate for the whitechapel killer.
I have not based this opinion on Cornwalls book, but forensic evidence from a top expert in this field.
Regards Richard. |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 385
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 6:29 am: |
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Come off it Richard, as I understand it people confess to the police as having done murders they couldn't possibly have committed.
Obsession with murder is nothing new.
We have LONG known Sickert had such an obsession with the JtR case. That that should translate into letter writing is not a surprise - at least not to me.
But that does not make him JtR.
Do we make the leap from contemporary police suspicion of Best or Bulling as hoax letter writers, to the assumption that they were potential suspects as "Jack". If so, I have never heard it, and would at once argue against any such contention.
Tumblety and Druitt, to take two of your examples, were suspects at the time and first, the suspcion did not arise from their letter writing, and if it were PROVED they had written letters, it would not make them any more likely to be the killer, UNLESS those letters contained some evidence that was undeniably something that only the murderer could have known.
Finally, HAS Cornwell proved that Sickert was a letter writer. That was my impression after reading her book, but I have seen it questioned on here. can anyone shed light on that?
Phil |
Dennis Bailey
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 4:37 am: |
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The stationery (note the E)is evidence towards Sickert being one of the many Ripper letter writers and nothing else. That he had an interest in the case is of no doubt but many people did, including Sherlock Holmes' creator.
The Eddowes' suspect is the closest to the real thing and I don't think fits Sickert.
I also doubt the famous person theories.
Dennis in Australia |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 648
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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Actually, that claim that the two sheets of paper came from one of a batch of 24 sheets thing doesn't make any sense. If you compare the watermarks of the two letters Cornwell compares you can see right away that they were produced in completely different years. It says so right on them, stamped into their surface during production and obvious at a glance. The idea that they were part of the same continuous cut of 24 pages is fairly absurd.
To me the whole thing is just an example of someone shopping around for experts to say what she wants to hear, which is unfortunately all too common when there's a big paycheck and/or publicity involved.
Experts can be wrong, whether they claim that they are backed by scientific proof or not (there's an amusing tale of a leading marine biologist claiming to have found the corpse of a giant squid just a couple of years ago that turned out to be decaying flesh from a sperm whale, as one of my favorite examples). The only way we can accurately judge them is if they open up their research to others to verify. Luckily in this case even those of us who do not have access to the original letters are capable of seeing the watermark dates in the photos they provide (conspicuously, she prints one photo reversed, perhaps to try to make the date less obvious), but if we couldn't, the statement of someone hunted down by a person with an agenda wouldn't hold any scientific weight until it was confirmed by multiple other experts. Cornwell simply picks the results that are favorable to her and publishes them, often twisting the science involved to make them sound far more compelling then they really are (especially with the DNA claims), while ignoring anything that points away from what she believes.
Just because some millionaire comes along and says paper tests are as unique as fingerprints doesn't mean that it's actually true. And, frankly, I am shocked so many people have been mislead by claims that have no solid basis in fact.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 406
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:56 am: |
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Thanks, Dan. It was probably you I recalled making the point before.
Phil |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Hi Gentleman,
I assume that you put no importance in the almost certainity that Sickert penned Ripper letters, putting it down to a 'Natural progression' in having a intrest in murder.
I Can see no logic in that attitude, I have had a intrest in murder and the mind of such individuals since the mid -fifties ie, The Ruth Ellis crimes and trial, which as a lad I found more appealing then 'The Eagle or Kit Carson books, and I can honestly say that i have never written a hoax correspondence to the police , or made a phone call , and therefore a natural progression was not present in my obsession.
The fact is If?. Sickert wrote any letters to the police he did it for a reason that had sinister motivations.
Regards Richard. |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 420
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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I assume that you put no importance in the almost certainity that Sickert penned Ripper letters, putting it down to a 'Natural progression' in having a intrest in murder.
Then you assume wrongly, Richard.
I was referring to Sickert, not making some general remark. Indeed my subsequent comment about Best and Bulling should have made that clear. I note you didn't repond on that point!
The fact is If?. Sickert wrote any letters to the police he did it for a reason that had sinister motivations.
Are you suggesting that as fact - if so where is the evidence? Or as an assumption? If so, don't state it as a fact.
Please try to think clearly.
Phil
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 651
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:11 am: |
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Hi Richard,
You wrote...
"I assume that you put no importance in the almost certainity that Sickert penned Ripper letters"
...which means you either skipped my reply above or are ignoring it. I don't put importance into the idea that Sickert "almost certainly" penned Ripper letters because of the simple fact that Cornwell's so-called evidence proves no such thing.
Cornwell even has Sickert writing Ripper letters and mailing them from all over the British Isles at a time when we have good evidence that he was in the South of France. While it could be argued that those references do not establish him as being there on the specific days of the murders, they without a doubt establish that he was there at the time some of the earlier letters Cornwel tries to claim he wrote were created and mailed.
And regarding the idea that if he did write them he had sinister motivations... sorry, but no. From the number of letters that came in it's like that there were a minimum of twenty different people hoaxing them, and more realistically perhaps many more that that. They even caught and prosecuted a couple of hoaxers, and from what we know there they were not sinister, just extremely foolish.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 3:13 am: |
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Hi All,
To be fair, I do think there's something sinister about anyone who can sit down and write a hoax letter, that can only do harm - especially when it concerns crimes as horrible as the ripper's.
Having said that, I was at the Tate when Cornwell's paper expert, Peter Bower, gave his best shot at making the evidence sound good. But by the end of the question and answer session with the audience, I was pretty much convinced that he hadn't proved Sickert the author of a single ripper missive, let alone dozens of the bastards, all in completely different handwriting to each other (although many people seem to believe it's physically possible, and not only concerning Sickert - ask all those who think Mike Barrett could have done it in the diary  ).
Love,
Caz
X |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 653
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 3:34 am: |
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Hi Caz,
Is it sinister to write a hoax letter...? Well, for those people who think through to the end consequences, don't care and do it anyway, sure, to some extent. But I'm not sure the people who did it thought that much about it. For example Maria Coroner, who was prosecuted for writing one, seemed particularly clueless about the whole situation.
And I didn't realize Mike Barrett was accused of authoring dozens of Ripper diaries in dozens of different handwriting styles. It'd be like a regular assembly line there in the Barrett household! Were the other alleged diaries supposed to all be from Maybrick too, or did they point at completely new Rippers each time? Man, they could have had a Ripper Diary of the Month Club.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1695
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 6:18 am: |
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I guess if people are arguing that Mike could have changed his handwriting for a one-off diary, they can also argue that Sickert could have changed it many times for all the letters alleged to have been penned by him.
The similarity between the two is that no one has proved that either of these men's handwriting appears in the hoaxes they are accused of creating.
Cornwell is rightly discredited, while those who fondly imagine Mike's handwriting is, or could be, in the diary, are patted on the back and congratulated for their common sense, instead of being challenged to produce some sort of physical evidence in support.
Love,
Caz
X |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Hi Dan
To be correct about it, I think only Maria Coroner of Bradford was prosecuted for hoaxing "Ripper" letters not a couple of people as you indicated in your post of Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:11 am.
I don't think that it is too outlandish to think that people would get a kick out hoaxing such letters. The case of "Wearside Jack" who wrote letters and recorded tapes that misled the Yorkshire Ripper enquiry comes to mind.
I think the police in 1888 left the door wide open to pranksters by allowing the text of the Dear Boss letter and postcard to be published. Then everyone could have a jolly old time taunting them and pretending to be the infamous killer that kept the capital in thrall.
Dan, I do agree that Cornwell's theory that Sickert took time away from his art career to write letters in all different writing from all over the country is too bizarre to take seriously.
By the way, I stated on these boards early on that Cornwell's claim that the Sickert letter and the Openshaw letter are from the same batch of paper can't be so, because the two letters have different years watermarked in them -- 1886 and 1887, as I recall -- so they could not possibly be from the same batch of paper. Just keep watching the walnut shells, folks.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on May 02, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 655
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Letters from Hell also lists a Miriam Howells as being prosecuted for having hoaxed a Ripper letter.
It could very well be your post about the dates on the letters Cornwell claims to be from the same batch being wrong that first alerted me to it. Once you look at them it's quite obvious.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 340
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
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Hello all,
Mike Barrett wrote all the Ripper letters; Sickert wrote the Diary. Get it right. I'm telling you, it's an almost certainty.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 387
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 1:46 am: |
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In 1722 Silence Dogood wrote a series of letters to the editor of the New England Courant... Problem was there was no Silence Dogood, it was a young Benjamin Franklin pulling a hoax on his brother that got out of hand and before you knew it the whole town believed she was real. So much so that the fictional lady received a number of marriage proposals from members of the town's society.
We have people that walk into police stations and confess to murders they didn't commit. We have people claim to be psychic and have seen the murders in their dreams. We even have copycat killers imitating the real killer's actions so why is it surprising that even someone respected in the community would initiate a hoax for whatever personal reason?
If it were possible, I would love to see modern fingerprinting and DNA analysis of all the letters to see who else was responsible for hoaxing the police. I have a feeling the list might be more of a society's who's who than anyone could imagine.
Shannon |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 4:19 am: |
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Hi Shannon,
I don't think it's surprising; I just think people need good evidence before they start accusing someone of hoaxing anything.
As you say, people are always confessing to stuff they didn't do, so they make convenient prime suspects, even better if they are the only suspect, and they are confessing to something they are actually connected with in some way.
With Sickert, it was his known interest in murder (and the ripper murders in particular), and those 'evil eyes' of his that sent Cornwell off on a fool's errand. With Barrett, it was the fact that he acquired the diary, has never given a verifiable account of how, but given many demonstrably false ones, got it published and later claimed to be the world's greatest forger.
It would be nice if just one person who seriously believes Barrett's handwriting is in the diary could have made an effort over the last 13 years to support their belief with hard evidence that he has ever handwritten a page in his life (either self-composed or transcribed) in flowing joined-up writing with all the upper and lower cases in the correct places, as in the diary, without making a pig's ear of it.
Lovely name that - Silence Dogood.
A name I could never hope to live up to. 
Love,
Caz
X |
AD
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
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When will these pro-diary people ever understand the fact that it is up to them to prove it to be worth anything in any shape or form (an impossibility, which why none of them has ever done it). The non-believers merely have to ignore what is a patent modern hoax. |
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