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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 314
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 3:56 pm: | 
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In case there is a thread for this that I have overlooked [in which case, please remove this post..]
Does anyone have information on the non-ambient light sources found on Goulston Street, between Wentworth Avenue and New Goulston Street [ the side street that intersects with Goulston Street] back in 1888 ?
I've been told that there may be a local neighborhood-related statistical-reference work that may show whether there was a light fixture on the corner of New Goulston Street.
Any information would be helpful.
Thank you |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 529
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
Not sure if these are of any use to you.
I have this postcard and even though it says Goulston Street, I actually think it is New Goulston Street and that is Wentworth Model Dwellings in the distance. I've highlighted the street lamp which looks to be on the North West corner. It is just my opinion that it is New Goulston Street.
And this one is a blow up of the North Eastern side of Goulston Street. Again I've highlighted the street lamps. The one in the middle I am not 100% certain off, but it looks like a wall lamp like the one nearest to us.
Both postcards are early twentieth Century, so I don't know how accurate they would be to 1888.
All the best
Rob |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 315
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Main Man Bob Clack:
I can't thank you enough for your kind efforts.
When possible, please let me know about the second photograph and the 5 taller buildings, in regard to whether the one in the middle of the 5 is the Wentworth Building.
According to my Ripperart map, the intersection of New Goulston and Goulston Sts. would be a little south of the Wentworth Building. Not that I doubt you,Bob, but since you have been there...if you stood on the corner of New Goulston NOW....wouldn't The Wentworth be at your left and up toward Wentworth St. ? Because if that is a slight slip in the detailing in the Ripperart map and the first photo IS New Goulston spilling into Goulston...you have answered an important question for me.
I really appreciate your effort,buddy. Me love you longer time now.
How |
Mephisto
Sergeant
Username: Mephisto
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 7:27 pm: |
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Hello Mr. Brown,
All of the tall buildings in the upper left corner of Mr. Clack's second photo are the Wentworth Model Dwelling buildings.
As per my 1894 Ordinance Map of East London, New Goulston Street would begin opposite the last building of the complex, i.e., the unit closer to the center street lamp.
The Wentworth complex began at the northeast corner of Wentworth and Goulston. If the first photo is accurately labeled, and the complex is in the distance on the left, then the picture had to have been taken from the west side of Bell Lane, which is north of Wentworth. However, if Bell Lane begins on Wentworth St., slightly west and off-center from Goulston St., then Wentworth St. would be directly in front of buildings. The photo doesn't appear to show any distance between the buildings on the left to allow for the width of Wentworth St.; therefore, the label in the first photo must be incorrect.
I hope this helps.
Mephisto
(Message edited by mephisto on April 09, 2005)
(Message edited by mephisto on April 09, 2005)
(Message edited by mephisto on April 09, 2005)
(Message edited by mephisto on April 09, 2005) |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 316
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Dear Mr.Mephisto..
Yes sir, it does.
It appears that there is a source of light that could have possibly shone directly upon the front of the Wentworth,from Bob's photo. There is a report [ Foster's, I believe ], thats stated there was a light 20 yards away from the Northeast corner of Goulston [ and which appears to be the one Bob highlighted ]. Its also stated that there was a light 20 yards in the other direction down toward the middle of the street,halfway between Wentworth on the north and Whitechapel High St on the south. Even if I am mistaken,and if you are correct,there is yet another light standard to provide light.
I also hadn't realized that the street lights were as far from the ground as they evidently were by the first photo. It looks like these lights are approx.25- 30 ft high.,which could well have provided ample lighting for the facade of the 108-119 address. Nowhere is it mentioned that the lights weren't working on Goulston back in late September of 1888,which indicates to me that the lighting situation was normal. Had there been no light,it more than likely would have been mentioned somewhere along the way due to its being conspicuous in its absence.....nobody misses their water until the well runs dry.
Thanks very much Mr.Mephisto. |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 530
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 5:08 am: |
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Hi Howard, Mephisto
I'm not a great fan of the Ripperart maps (they made a mess of Bucks Row). I have this large scale plan from 1894, but it doesn't indicate the positions of the street lamps. So I have marked there approximate positions from the photos. The whole of the North side of New Goulston Street had buildings on in my 1913 O.S. map, so the first photo would be around that time.
Rob |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 569
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Hi all,
I don't know if there's a report by Foster stating it, but the map he submitted at Eddowes' inquest shows that there was a lamp slightly north of New Goulston Street (some 5 yards from it) on the east side of Goulston Street, probably somewhere close to the 'H' in Rob's map above. Hope this helps.
All the best,
Frank
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 532
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
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Hi Frank,
I remembered after reading your post, that I had a copy of Fosters drawing.
I am not to sure how accurate his map is, as the layout of Goulston Street is the same as it was on my 1873 map, which is before Wentworth Model Dwellings was built. That would explain the shaded portion. There is some writing concerning Wentworth Model Dwellings which is a bit hard to read but I'll give it a go.
All the best
Rob |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 317
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
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Mr. Van Oploo :
Thanks for your help. From what I've been led to believe, that light [ the one marked "H" ] would have been around 60 feet [ or about 19 meters to Europeans...] from the actual entrance.
Bob....Thanks again for your help. |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:56 am: |
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How,
As you can guess, its a subject Im looking at also for obvious reasons.
Ive been in touch with Stewart Evans (I dont know if you have). I have a copy of Fosters map with pencil marks on it.
Stewart kindly informed me that, according to Foster, there is a lamp 20 yards north of the dwelling entrance to 108-119. As Rob points out, it seems as if Foster oringinally drew a map from a pre Wentworth Dwelling map (1860s O.S. I think), got to the scene and then realised where the dwellings were and later shaded them in.
Like I said, its something Im looking at also but you will see why when I mail it to you.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1588
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:22 am: |
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Rob,
I forgot to add this to my post.
Re the writing which is hard to fathom.
Ive had a crack myself and from what I can figure its basically distances and a note that the writing was found in the stairwell of 108-119.
Like Ive mentioned, Ive collered (Im wary about becoming a pain so I havent pushed it) Mr Evans and also Mr Begg about this. Hopefully I can let you know their views once they have a window in their very busy lives.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Guys,
Part of a private mail from Stewart Evans.
It addresses the writing in pencil on Fosters map that we are all wondering about....well me and Rob anyway.
2 doors from Wentworth Street & No 3 on the right 4 blocks [from murder site] about 30'0 on right hand side doorway about 20'0 from lamp found inside entrance to Model Dwellings from 108 - 119.
The Juws are not the men To be blamed for nothing
See page 25 of Jack the Ripper Letters From Hell.
Many thanks to Stewart for this.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 537
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:48 pm: |
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Hi Monty,
Thank you for the info, and thanks Stewart as well.
It looks as if there was a lamp between 108-119 and the next doorway North. I don't suppose the lamp was there for much longer as the photos I have seen from the early twentieth century don't have a lamp in that location, and I am assume it was on the same side of the road as the dwellings?
Rob |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 318
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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Gents....
Two questions regarding this quote [ Monty's post above..]
"2 doors from Wentworth Street & No 3 on the right 4 blocks [from murder site] about 30'0 on right hand side doorway about 20'0 from lamp found inside entrance to Model Dwellings from 108 - 119."
1. The 30'0 and 20'0 in this case,refer to meters and not feet,as they would in American measurement-taking.....correct?
2. Am I misreading the quote, or does it say that there was a lamp inside the entrance of 108-119 Wentworth Model Dwellings ?
Thanks in advance...
Monty..did you get the p.m. I sent you ? |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 319
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Another question....
I know Phil Hutchinson and Dave Knott have been to the Wentworth and have photographed it. So have some others...Has anyone been through it?
If one was to enter the Wentworth from Goulston Street...and only because from what I've learned from reading technical blueprints...it doesn't appear that there was an exit. The rear of the edifice appears to be intact. Perhaps someone who has been there actually went through the building or knows if this feat is possible...
I don't know how I could have overlooked this when Dave and Phil posted their photos before,but I did.
Monty my brother...this may change some of cosa mio I'm working on contraMonty...I know you know Monty...but you won't tell me.
Again,thanks for any assistance in this matter.
LAST SECOND REQUEST !
I also forgot to ask anyone whom has been to Goulston Street if all the buildings had essentially the same sort of entranceway as 108-119 does...Modern photos display glass doors on the buildings to the side of the one in question...In 1888, were there doors there instead of these glass doors and did that also include the other buildings within the 5 building-complex ?
(Message edited by howard on April 11, 2005) |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 3:53 am: |
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Rob and How,
Rob,
I am assume it was on the same side of the road as the dwellings?
Yes.
How,
Not checked PM yet. Will do in a bit.
1. The 30'0 and 20'0 in this case,refer to meters and not feet,as they would in American measurement-taking.....correct?
Stewart informed me that the measurement is 20 yards.
2. Am I misreading the quote, or does it say that there was a lamp inside the entrance of 108-119 Wentworth Model Dwellings ?
The quote is misleading isnt it? The quote refers to the actual apron and writing and not a lamp. Basically it reads that found 2 doors away from Wentworth St and the 3rd enterance on the right, 4 blocks away from the murder site and 30 yards (as you walk up Goulston to Wentworth from New Goulston) and 20 yards from a lamp was found the words The Juws are not the men To be blamed for nothing . Its the locations of the graffito rather than the lamp. Note the spelling of Juws....another variation.
Ive not been through the building as they are now shops and residential flats. The residents get a tad narked with us Ripper enthusiasts snooping around, and understandibly so. I would, so I like to keep a low profile out of respect. Looking at the photo, being there and studying the OS maps it seems not. The only entrance I can fathom is the one we see. Straight up and down stairs. I have been through Castle Alley and cannot see any old exits onto the ally from the dwellings....but can via the baths. Unfortunately I dont know if an escape through the baths were possible. Its a moot point because the baths were closed around 10-11pm.
Your last request. I dont quite follow you....but Ill try. The entrances to the Wentworth dwellings are still there yes. It seems the the shop fronts (the glass door you refer to??) were put in during the 70s I believe. Before they were just walls. I maybe wrong though. Stewart or Eduardo (or anyone else??) may be able to help on that.
Interesting point. The building opposite the dwellings has the same decore and I wondered if it was built in the same period. Martin Fido informed me that this is the case. So we have two buildings, of the same imposing height, opposite each other.
Cheers
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 4:15 am: |
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How
Just checked my PMs and yours is not there Buddy.
I need you mail address.
Cheers Chunk.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 539
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 4:59 am: |
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Hi Monty, Howard
My understanding of the entrances were as you entered there were stairs to your right which took you to the upper levels, and to your left there was a door (locked I believe) which took you to the basement. The whole frontage where the shops are now were just a brick wall, the same style which is still there on the corner, a horizontal grove effect.
I doubt if there was a way through the dwellings out to the other side, from the South side of the dwellings continuing around the back is a high wall about 15 to 20 feet which is still there now and looks contemporary. The empty space on the map behind the dwellings was at the time a playground which formed part of the school in Castle Alley.
There is a alley today in Wentworth Street which runs behind Wentworth Model Dwelling, which you can see is on the map, but I don't think it was accessible via the dwellings.
Rob |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
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Guys,
Mr Evans has again pointed me to the error of my ways !!
I was wrong. The measurements are in feet not yards. Sorry.
It was also pointed out to me that the lamp is marked in pencil on Fosters map of the Goulston Street area.
Many thanks to Stewart for again pointing out this information.
Cheers,
Monty
PS How....still not got your PM.
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 320
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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Monty..
Never mind,bubs...I have to make some changes to my magnum dopus because of these interesting finds [ especially Bob Clack's statement about the lack of an exit through the back...and Stewart Evans' correction of the distance....20 feet huh?....thats close enough for someone to wr...oh never mind..
Monty....Keep chugging away..its gonna be at least Sunday before I send you the goods....
Thanks again for all the help folks... |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:58 am: |
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How, Rob,
How,
Got yer mail.
Yes, close enough...angles and an exstensive research in to gas lightings plus information on file helps indicate that......yes, never mind.
Like I said, mailed you. I have probs also but thats a private thing ! Just want to know if Mssr Begg has mailed you. He has sent me a joint one with your name on also. If not I shall forward it so let me know.
Rob,
Ive also received your mail, so sorry for not responding to that.
Many thanks for that. Any info is good info.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 542
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Hi Monty,
No worries.
By the way, I enjoyed your article in the latest Rip.
Rob |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 321
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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Monty....
Begg ?....name's familiar,but...oh yeah,that guy. . Yeah Monty, mail it on to me..
Very good story in Ripperologist,Mr. Las Vegas.
Very very good..
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