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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1921
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:24 pm: | 
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I have always regarded theories which have Jack dressed as a woman to carry out his crimes as pure fantasy, however I have chanced upon a couple of cases which do seem to indicate that girly dressing was not that uncommon during the LVP. I honestly don't think that Jack ran around in petticoats, but when there is evidence that he may have done so it should be honestly examined and explored.
For villians dressing as women please see:
The Times June 4th & August 19th 1879.
(search term: police) |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 565
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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AP--Do you recall the newspaper item I posted stating that Donald Swanson himself believed the Ripper dressed in drag? Certainly an item best swept under the rug, no? That most convenient of all postions---"unreliable newspaper reports" |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
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No, RJ, that one slipped my blasted memory I'm afraid.
I think we all grow up a bit as we are given more and more access to information from the period we are discussing, and in doing so must really dig ouselves out of all these derelict trenches we have dug for ourselves.
It's the respectable and polite thing to do.
The farcical idea of Jack in drag must be reconsidered, as we now know such things happened, perhaps we always knew?
I would love to see Thomas in a skirt waving his toy dagger around! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4332
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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Interesting suggestion, AP, but can we really view all those skirts and petticoats as fence-vaulting gear?
When I try to imagine it, I see Les Dawson.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on March 31, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1925
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
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Robert
whatever are you thinking of?
Of course Thomas would have changed his skirts for his trousers before he vaulted the fence, otherwise he may have snagged his knife on a fence post and cut his own throat.
Seriously though, Robert, I don't see Jack in a skirt, but as I did find a few others so inclined I thought it only fair to lift their petticoats and let some air flow over the situation.
Anything has got to be better than imagining or seeing Les Dawson! |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 366
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 6:58 am: |
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A.P., Robert, and Les Dawson,
Other than the confusion of women being used as detectives in Whitechapel,( 1890 New york press)
there was an incident reported in the MANCHESTER WEEKLY TIMES (no doubt copied from London dailies)of 13 October 1888,reporting the Southwark trial of a journalist acting as an amateur detective dressed in women's clothing.
If they could all get into drag, there was nothing to stop JTR. And how reassuringly jolly he would have been to his unsuspecting victims. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4336
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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John, I know Monty felt he was going to be like mother, but surely not to the extent of wearing her petticoats?
Robert |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 299
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 9:08 am: |
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I think we need to be careful here.
"Drag" existed in London in the 1880s and at high levels of society - for instance the Hundred Guineas Club. Lads not much different to those involved in the Cleveland St affair seem to have been employed dressed up as women, for the benefit of rich (older) men.
"Sins of the Cities of the Plain" said to be based on fact and sometimes said to have been penned by Wilde (I think not) expands on this.
I have always taken the references to coppers and others dressing up in women's clothes to help try to catch the Ripper, as indicating that they were NOT very convincing.
"Jill" the Ripper is not a theory I have ever warmed to though.
Phil |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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I recall reading that Jesse James and his gang dressed as women once to infiltrate a bordello and attack some officers that they knew to be there. I wonder how convincing they were?
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 568
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
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AP--"When the police surgeon, Dr. Phillips, arrived the woman was found stiff in death, she having breathed her last while the search for the murderer was being made.
The police declare, of course, that none but "Jack the Ripper" was guilty, and that the arrival of the constable prevented the usual mutilation which he has hitherto indulged in.
The spot where the body was found is a favorite resort for women at night, two having been arrested there for loitering early Thursday evening.
Inspector Swanson says that any ruffian might have cut the unfortunate woman's throat in the way that this was done, but when a second soft felt hat rolled from under the victim's arm, in addition to the one she wore, he felt that this must have been done by the "Ripper." The theory has long been that he paraded in woman's attire, and Swanson thinks he dropped the hat while struggling with his victim. Commissioner Sir Edward Bradford professes to be confident that he will unearth the murderer of "Carroty Nell," and the public hopes he will.
The article was reprinted on Feb 14, 1891, evidently from a correspondent stationed in London. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1928
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Thanks for posting that RJ.
Yes, I do think a more serious effort should be made in regard to this subject.
Lady Florence Dixie was attacked in 1883 by supposed Fenians dressed as women, causing much anguish to Her Majesty and that herbert, the Crown Prince... she was stabbed.
That was around March 20th 1883.
But even more interesting - and worthy of far more research - is the strange case of William Cave, poultry dealer, who was appehended by the police in Hammersmith in December 1888 after 'bothering' women on the street, he and his companion were both completely dressed as women, and his male companion had been made-up to resemble a women who had been murdered.
All a bit of fun they said at their trial |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2496
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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October 10th 1888. The Times.
For the doubters.
Alerted to the fact that the murder of a woman was planned for that night, DPS Robinson dressed as a woman stationed himself in Phoenix Street that night, and was set upon by a gang of Whitechapel roughs who mistook him for a...
woman.
When he attempted to explain that he was an undercover police officer they really laid into him then. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 939
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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A.P.
In the April 2005 edition of main man Dan Norder's Ripper Notes, there is a good story written by Mr.Bernard Brown that discusses DC John Charles Robinson and his adventures [ got lumped up and stabbed near the eye one month before MJK's murder for dressing up a little too convincingly..].
Stabbed near the eye? Whew ! That must have been a drag... |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2498
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
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Thanks How,
My main problem is that I don't read anymore.
Well, not in this century anyway.
I read the LVP, and that is it. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 943
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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A.P.
You know that I know that you know that I know how to make a buck...so lets see here...hmm...
How about a collation of some of the materials you have shared here on the site recently ...send 'em to Dan....he prints 'em.....and then not only will he bend over backwards with a huge chunk o' change...but also send you a copy, gratis, of that April 2005 magazine ?
Its a win-win scenario....and everyone will remember it was my idea ! Is I smart or what?
Or I can just mail you a copy?
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 458
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
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Pretty unusual for a man not to have a moustache or some sort of facial hair during that time.A quick look through the photo sections of a couple of books shows me only 2 men who didn't. One of them is the cleanshaven and rather "pretty" Walter Sickert.
Uh oh. 
Mags
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 889
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Bernard Brown's description of the incident with PC Robinson does not have the men mistaking him for a woman but wondering what on earth a man was doing in women's clothes and following another woman, attacking after he announced that he was a police constable.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
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