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  | Archive through March 23, 2005 | Natalie Severn | 50 | 1 | 3-23-05 5:13 pm |
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1895
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 6:04 pm: | 
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Natalie
You just about said everything I wanted to say, so thanks for that, very fine summary of our pinball Thomas.
Caz
I think we are drinking out of the same bottle but from different ends, you think you have the neck but I reckon you have the other flat bit at the other end.
All I’m trying to say is that the 30 minutes allows for other useful encounters to take place. The Jack who went into the backyard might not be the same Jack who walked out 30 minutes later, another Jack might have come along.
I mean if you want me to start proving that lots of Jacks were around in 1888 I can do it. What sort of Jack would you like?
You name the Jack and I’ll supply the Jack.
Here we are with insanity springing down our throats and you lot want a cool and calculated chap with charm.
It will be a deer stalker next, and dreadful black bag.
You been reading too many books Caz. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 6:39 am: |
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Hi AP,
I well and truly feel like giving up now!
I'm not talking about any other men who may or may not have had social or sexual intercourse with Annie in the 30 minutes before she was found dead. I'm talking about your Jack - you know, the one who was provoked into attacking, killing and mutilating our Annie. Got that? Good.
The books I read, and my opinions, have sod all to do with the scenario I am struggling in vain to get out of you. You evidently don't want to give me a simple answer to a simple question.
OK, for the very last time, where do you think this provocation took place? Before, or after, your Jack found himself in the backyard with our Annie?
This is exhausting! I think I need a little lie down now. 
Hi Nats,
All would be fine if I thought Cutbush could have been Jack. Unfortunately I don't find any of the evidence particularly compelling.
Love,
Caz
X |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1899
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
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Caz
we obviously do not understand one another here.
Again I'll try, but after this I too give up.
It is reasonable to suggest that Annie took her punter into that backyard and gave him what he wanted in a few brief moments and he went on his way. Only a suggestion, as we cannot assume the man seen talking to her was her killer.
As she adjusts her voluminous petticoats and skirts, Jack walks into the yard to take a jimmy riddle.
'Fancy a good time?' she suggests.
Alternatively Jack could have been in the backyard during the entire episode with the other man.
Alternatively if Jack was a fence-springer he might have sprung himself right on top of her as she cleaned herself up.
As I said Caz, this type of weird provocation can take many forms, from a simple commercial approach to the utter disgust such a complicated individual might feel when watching others copulate.
The Pitchfork example I quoted shows that it could be something so simple as cutting off a flight path.
I'm open and cool about this Caz. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
Well I suppose we are all a bit like this-we take a time to be convinced the person even deserves to be a suspect.
My mind was changed by a present day paranoid schizophrenic incarcerated in Broadmoor for a Mary Kelly type murder and mutilation.
Britain"s leading profiler[sorry AP I know you are allergic to them]a man named Britton ,had previously described the suspect as being someone who has been carrying out "random acts" of lesser violence such as "stabbing at young women"[which both this murderer HAD been quilty of
AS HAD Cutbush] and with an unhealthy interest in drawing and cutting out pictures of women and trashing certain parts of their anatomy.This proved to be true of the current Broadmoor killer AND Cutbush.
Cutbush also disappeared from his home regularly,returning at three or four o"clock in the morning ,covered in mud[a camouflage to fool his mother and aunt and anyone who might wonder why his clothing was stained?] anyway........
Cutbush appears to have known Whitechapel like the back of his hand, having worked there until he was sacked for nearly killing an elderly employee
by throwing him downstairs-an act for which he never showed any remorse.
This was a highly imaginative apparently extremely intelligent, young man,[he regularly studied medical texts intensively],he was also amazingly athletic[the fence leaping skills are true as well as him being an equally astonishing sprinter-all handy skills for the ripper wouldnt you agree?].
This then was the dangerously violent young man who The Sun newspaper gave over four days lead coverage to in 1894 because they believed him to be Jack the Ripper.
His Uncle Charles a Sr. Policeman in the Ripper case shot himself in the head the very same year as the Sun published their allegations -1894.He too appears to have been an extremely paranoid individual,believing himself to be being poisoned by Roman Catholics through drinking water.
I feel at the very least some of this should be
researched further and in depth.AP"s brilliantly written book goes a long way to highlighting his case as a suspect, but even more is required to prove he actually was the ripper.
Not a person to be dismissed lightly which may be why Machnaghten was needed to quash any further investigations.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Natalie makes a valid point here with her comparison to a more modern case.
I too have had some dealings with chaps who spend the rest of their time in Broadmoor, and I do remember meeting one young man who had committed several tame quasi-sexual assaults against women, much like the toy dagger incident of Thomas Cutbush, and this was prior to his long term imprisonment. As I was chatting to him he was cutting out multiple images from newspapers he had saved, layer upon layer, of little figures of women - much like you would find on the door of the ladies loo - and when he opened them they were all perfectly joined together like Christmas decorations you unfold, and he then pinned them to his wall, and started again. His entire room was festooned with such simple imagery.
I thought him one of the most dangerous young men I had ever met in my life.
He is now in Broadmoor for life for the rape and attempted murder of a mother and her young daughter.
Interesting is that at the time of his last crime he was actually on a study course to qualify as a medical counsellor for rape victims. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:22 am: |
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At last - many thanks AP for explaining your possible provocation scenarios. As I suspected, they don't involve Jack and Annie going as a couple to the back yard together.
Now do you see a similar scenario for Cutbu... sorry, Jack and Kate in Mitre Square?
Love,
Caz
X
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1905
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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No Caz, I do not.
I still feel that Kate was keeping an appointment.
As I've said to you before, this is very much a developing situation, as more material is uncovered about insane young men of the LVP we both might have to move a few yardsticks.
After reading about the young man called Trapp, I have already moved one of mine, and that is in regard to the murder of MJK... for I can now see a character of the nature I inspire to cast in the role of Jack as actually entering a house under certain circumstances.
This is a great leap for me, and I imagine the leap into a situation where this Jack could accompany a woman into a yard is yet another yardstick that can be moved.
Flexibility is important when hunting killers, Caz, if we become too rigid they will elude us.
For killers are much more flexible than the forensic profilers would have us believe. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Hi AP,
I must admit Cutbush is beginning to intrest me, heaven forbid I am a Barnett man.
However the jumping of fences is intresting, as it looks likely that the killer entered the yard of number27, and Number 25, the blood soaked paper in 27, and the marks of what appeared to have been a coat beaten against a wall [ that was bloodstained] in 25 leads me to a possible scenerio, that the noise that Cadosh heard when he went back into the yard a few minutes after the No Dont' was infact coming from the yard of 25 that being the killer attempting to get rid of blood off his coat.and not the falling of a body against the fence of 29.
Intresting...
Regards Richard. |
StanLey Dean Reid
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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And a fine hello to all.
Getting back to original question, the A-Z hints that 'Fingers Freddy' could have been a male victim of JTR. The motive being to eliminate a potential informant. It also says that a man named Frederico Albericci may have gone by that sobriquet, although, it is unclear as to whether these two were one in the same. I wrote about this case for America's Most Wanted News Magazine and personally doubt that the Ripper killed any men but I thought I'd just throw this into the mix at any rate. Please be gentle with me since I'm new to this forum. HeeHee
My registration and contribution are in the mail.
All the Best,
Stan (a Druitt guy since 1975 starting to edge toward Bury)
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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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Diana I think in people like Jack there's a thin line between their rage and their lust.
If you really want to know if he killed men as well then I suggest just looking for reports on men who were horribly mutilated at the time and place. I doubt there's any otherwise we'd probably know about them. |
S. Reid
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Regarding the original question, A-Z seems to hint that 'Fingers Freddy' could have been a possible male JTR murder victim. He supposedly vanished in 1888 and the presumed motive would have been to silence a potential informant. The book also states that a man named Frederico Albericci may have been known as 'Fingers Freddy' but it is unclear as to whether he disappeared at this time. I've written about the JTR case for America's Most Wanted News Magazine and personally doubt that the Ripper killed any men but I thought I'd throw this in at any rate. |
Stan Reid
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Sorry about the double posting, I didn't think that first one went through.
Here's another, granted far-fetched, scenario for JTR killing a man.
If you believe that Dr. Neill Cream was jaunty Jackie, then he definitely killed a man named Daniel Stott in Illinois during 1881. Records show that he was incarcerated during the Ripper's spree but the story goes that he exchanged clothing with a double during a prison visit and walked out as his particeps criminis took his place in the cell. Supposedly he was then free to go to England and commit the Whitechapel slayings before the prostitute poisoning murders for which he was condemned and which led to his reported abbreviated confession on the scaffold to the JTR crimes.
Have a goodie,
Stan |
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