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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1342
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:06 pm: | 
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Hi,
The following is a abstract from The Bournemouth visitors directory 14/11/1888.
Mrs Praters report.
'It was a faintish cry, as though somebody had woke with the nightmare'
That is the first time that i have read that quotation from Prater discussing the type of cry.
And as it fits in nicely with my theory that Kelly had a reoccurance of a recent nightmare, and that is what the witnesses heard, not the actual result of being attacked.
Kelly was paronoid about being alone in that room after her nightmare that she was being murdered occured in early october, that is why she had sleepovers.
Now who would the first person be to know of her horrific nightmare?.
And where did she die , in that very same bed.
I quess dreams do come true...
Regards Richard. |
Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 172
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 3:26 am: |
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Richard,
Whilst it may be true that it wasn't the attacker at all that caused Kelly to scream out like that, you are forgetting 1 important fact.
There was evidence she had put up a struggle and resisted the attack, like with Elizabeth Stride. If she had been asleep at the time, then in the several seconds it would have taken the killer to render her defenceless, she would not have been able to put up that struggle. Anyone knows that when you wake up, you are very un-alert and slow for a few minutes, before you start to wake up properly. Therefore, Kelly must have been awake or atleast alert at the time of her death.
It would be an extremely unfortunate coincidence if she had woken from her nightmare and had been killed while she was still trying to overcome that.
Also, generally people will just 'scream' or yell, if at all, when they wake up from a nightmare. Not "Oh Murder" loud enough for people upstairs to hear it.
So, IMHO, it was either a series of extremely unfortunate coincidences, or the more likely explanation that Mary's cry was her last desperate plea for help.
By the way, I noticed that in the Klosowski thread in "Suspects", you mention that he doesn't fit Hutchinson's description of the man he saw. Well, it's interesting to note that neither does Joe Barnett. Certainly a former fish porter like himself wouldn't have been able to come close to affording the kind of clothing that Hutchinson stated he saw the man wearing.
Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 3:42 am: |
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Hi Adam,
A couple of points, my whole suggestion was the reported cry heard was simply the result of a reoccurance of a recent nightmare she had in which she was being murdered, and she was not being attacked at that time.
I am a staunch believer in Mjk being killed around 9am [ in daylight hours] when she was alert and awake.
Regarding Hutchinsons sighting, i am certainly not suggesting that Barnett was that person, at that time he was in his lodgings.
I just happen to think that Praters account of a sound like 'Awake with nightmare' and Lotties account of Kelly telling her in october that she had a frightful nightmare, and the fact that she was petrified to stay alone over night, may have induced a reoccurence of that experience, and the words'Oh murder' would apply to that precise dream.
I also believe it would be a sound bet as she was living with Barnett at that time, that he would have most likely been the first person she confided to.
Unless she had a vision of the future, is it not strange that she out of all the victims was murdered in a room, exspecially on the same bed that she had the dreams.
My question is. Was this part of the killers sadistic plan?.
Regards Richard. |
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 311
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
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Richard,
And as it fits in nicely with my theory that Kelly had a reoccurance of a recent nightmare, and that is what the witnesses heard, not the actual result of being attacked.
Kelly was paronoid about being alone in that room after her nightmare that she was being murdered occured in early october, that is why she had sleepovers.
Can you just clarify for me that this is your own personal theory based on speculation, or is there actually some written documentation that Mary Kelly in fact had a recurring nightmare? If so, I'd be interested to know where I can read it.
Many thanks,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3152
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
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Richard,
No offense, but I have only one question...
Where on Earth do you dig up these imaginary speculations???????
The cry of murder was heard by two people, so I seriously doubt it was a faint outburst after a nightmare. The most logical interpretation is that the cry was Mary Jane Kelly's famous last words, and I see no reason to doubt that the time the cry occurred also was the time of her death.
Nightmare? Says who?
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on February 21, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 313
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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Well, Glenn..
I was sort of thinking along the same lines... but one never knows what actual evidence I may have missed along the way.
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3154
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Hi Lyn,
In such case... that would make two of us.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 178
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:07 am: |
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Hi again all,
Richard, you wrote:
"A couple of points, my whole suggestion was the reported cry heard was simply the result of a reoccurance of a recent nightmare she had in which she was being murdered, and she was not being attacked at that time."
I understand that, but isn't it just a bit too much of a coincidence that she would have a recurrence of a nightmare she had the month before on the same night she was actually murdered? Seems a little far fetched to me.
"I am a staunch believer in Mjk being killed around 9am [ in daylight hours] when she was alert and awake."
That goes against several things, including doctors reports on the time of her death, Hutchinson's statement, and the statement about cries heard by other witnesses.
The theory of Mary being killed in the morning is largely reliant on the testimony of Mrs. Maxwell, which, although she seems to be a trustworthy witness, is questionable. She may have simply saw someone who looked like Mary. It's not uncommon for people to say things like "You know, she really looked a lot like so and so"...That could well have been what happened.
"I also believe it would be a sound bet as she was living with Barnett at that time, that he would have most likely been the first person she confided to."
So, why was it a month later then? October is not November. Besides that, Barnett and Kelly had been split up since the end of October. It seemed to neighbours that they were on friendly terms again, though, by the time of Mary's death. That doesn't make sense if Barnett was involved, I don't think.
"Unless she had a vision of the future, is it not strange that she out of all the victims was murdered in a room, exspecially on the same bed that she had the dreams."
Just because she was the only victim killed indoors means nothing. If you look at the other victims, you can see that all of them were killed in sheltered or well hidden places, excluding perhaps Polly Nichols. Annie Chapman down the side of steps in a backyard. Liz Stride in a dark yard next to a building. Catherine Eddowes in the dark corner of Mitre Square, with buildings all around. So her being killed indoors isn't really that much of a leap.
Glenn, you wrote:
"The cry of murder was heard by two people, so I seriously doubt it was a faint outburst after a nightmare. The most logical interpretation is that the cry was Mary Jane Kelly's famous last words, and I see no reason to doubt that the time the cry occurred also was the time of her death."
I agree completely. It makes a fair amount of sense that that would be the explanation, and witness statements, doctors reports, etc, also back this up. So, we agree on that! Great!
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1348
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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Hi Lyn,
The whole episode of Kellys nightmare which she appears to have had after Stride and Eddowes, comes from the canadian reporter Kitty who in approx 1890/91 visited Millers court and spoke to the residents, amongst the women was a person called Lottie, who at that time was resident in kellys room, but at the time of the murder was further down the court.
She claimed to be Kellys friend, and remarked that kelly had told her of a nightmare she had recently in which she was being murdered, but although obviously shaken laughed it off.
My point is as Elizabeth Prater said the cry she heard was faintish, and resembled a cry of a nightmare[ she even acted out the cry resembling just that at the inquest] then would it not be possible [ considering the amount of reading of the papers by Barnett] that she had a reoccurence of that dream on the very night that she had no woman sleepovers with her, as she seemed[ at least to me that she was petrified[ understandably so] to stay alone at nights.
I conclude that judging by the remarks of Lottie and Elizabeth prater, the whole possiblity of a reoccurence of that nightmare should not be shunned.
Regards Richard.
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Joan Taylor.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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R.E. the first post on this board. A very interesting idea indeed. This is a good bit of sensitive research based guesswork.
Congrats.  |
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 325
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for your clarification.
I do however find it a little too coincidental that Mary just happened to have a recurring nightmare on the very night that she was murdered. And if she was, as you speculate, "petrified to stay alone at night", what on Earth was she doing walking the streets alone at such a late hour?
Thanks for getting back to me about the Canadian reporter. I would like to read her account.. is it somewhere on the Casebook?
Best,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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