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Christopher Lowe
Police Constable
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 2:50 pm: | 
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Okay I've looked at the text of both Stoker's novel and the Icelandic preface and here are the only arguments I could find for Dracula being inspired by the Ripper crimes and rebuttals for those that do not hold (holy) water.
1. He refers to Whitechapel in the novel as Chicksand St. where the Count leaves some coffins is between Spitalfields and Whitechapel Road. This could of course be a reflection of the bad reputation of the area and be used to emphasise how degenerate he is. I know this sounds absurd its this sort of argument based on interpreting what an author wrote which led me to drop English and keep Sociology and History after first year in university.
2. I've read (I forget where) that some evidence of the influence of the Ripper crimes on Dracula is the fact he both preyed on women, this ignores the Counts massacre of the ship's crew.
3. It has been argued that the brides are based on prostitutes (Murray, Jonathan Cape, 2004), this could reflect the victims of the Ripper
4. More promisingly Dracula is foreign and many believed JTR was also a foreign individual.
5. Stoker wrote in his Icelandic preface "But the events are incontrovertible, and so many people know of them that they cannot be denied. This series of crimes has not yet passed from the memory -- a serious of crimes which appear to have originated from the same source, and which at the same time created as much repugnance in people everywhere as the murders of Jack the Ripper, which came into the story a little later." (Dalby, Foulsham, 1986) This suggests a possible link, it could merely be an attempt to create verisimilitude as is suggested when you read the preface in its totality (ie "Apart from excising minor details which I considered unnecessary, I have let the people involved relate their experiences in their own way; but, for obvious reasons, I have changed the names of the people and places concerned. In all other respects I leave the manuscript unaltered, in deference to the wishes of those who have considered it their duty to present it before the eyes of the public… I state again that this mysterious tragedy which is here described is completely true in all its external respects, though naturally I have reached a different conclusion on certain points than those involved in the story. But the events are incontrovertible, and so many people know of them that they cannot be denied… All the people who have willingly -- or unwillingly -- played a part in this remarkable story are known generally and well respected. Both Jonathan Harker and his wife (who is a woman of character) and Dr. Seward are my friends and have been so for many years, and I have never doubted that they were telling the truth").
So it is possible to say that Dracula is based on the Ripper's crimes just impossible to prove.
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 102
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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Given that your last sentence is not grammatical, I cannot understand what you are arguing!!
Are you saying that IT is or IT IS NOT possible to prove a link?
Dracula is fiction, and your arguments can all work both ways.
Please clarify.
Phil |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Stoker's preface suggesting that the events are true is in keeping with the documentary style of the novel -written in the form of letters and journal entries. He's not claiming the events are truly real. Stoker owes considerably more to horror predecessors {like "Varney the Vampyre"} than to real events.
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
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mal x
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 4:51 pm: |
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Bram Stoker's Dracula is based on the real life Vlad Drakulya or vlad the impaler...bram stoker was searching for somebody in history who he could use to depiction as a fictional vampire, this historic person had to be powerful/evil/murderous/gothic and a figure of strong folklore...there is none better than Vlad the impaler........
the big mistake is that vlad the impaler was far more evil than the fictional vampire, plus more likely to be a wearwolf than a blood sucker! |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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Stoker made no "big mistake" and was a meticulous reasearcher. Dracula is commonly thought to refer to Dracul, but actually Stoker used the name because he read that it was Wallachian for "demon". He meant no reference to any actual person, and his extensive notes back this up. See this essay for more detail on his sources and the facts against Tepes:http://www.sacrosanctum.org/encyclopedia/bio/dracula.html
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
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Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 128
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Chris,
I reread your post and apologize for jumping on the idea that Dracula was based on Jack (I still say no!). It's clear that Stoker could not have helped but be somewhat influenced by the goings on in Whitechapel and some of it probably does sneak into the novel, as you pointed out. Good post, and thanks.
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
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Christopher Lowe
Police Constable
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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PHIL
"your arguments can all work both ways. "
My point was just that you could read it and that it was impossible to prove either way. You are right on the grammer point.
KELLY
Thanks for rereading the post, he (Stoker) could well have been subconciously influenced by the events of 1888.
Two real links between Stoker and the Ripper crimes Tumblety and Stoker both knew a certain manx writer, Hall Caine. And Macnaughton told Stoker how impressed he was with Dracula. (Murray, 2004) |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 727
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
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Hi Christopher,
If you're interested in a bit of trivia, see this post for an account of Stoker's involvement in one of Thomas Diplock's inquests from 1882. Diplock also held the Druitt inquest in 1889. More proof that Montague Druitt was connected to everyone in London somehow, even in death (laugh). |
Jeff Leahy
Police Constable
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
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Mal x
Think you find Vald wasnt linked to Vampires until farely recently although the ledgend of Elizebeth Bathroy my give you some clues.
http://vampires.monstrous.com/elizabeth_bathory_.htm
Bathroy was supposedly the biggest serial killer in history although I'd take with a pinch of salt anyone condemed by a diary. She is supposed to make Shipman look like an ameteur.
I beleive that Bram Stoker claims Dacula came from Cezchslovakia not Transylvania. Which links Bathroy as his sorce.
Vald is considered a hero in some parts of Romania and was link to Vampires comparitively recently:
http://www.dreamsmith-graphics.com/wizglass/vlad.html
I guess Bran Stoker would have been familar with the Ripper case, he certainly has more countinance than poor old Vald the impalor.
Jeff |
Andrew Gable
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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I for one have for some reason always thought that Arthur Machen's "The Great God Pan" was to some extent influenced by Jack. I guess it's the fact that most of the events happen in 1888. |
Kevin James
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
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I think that Spitalfields is also used by Dickens as the location of Fagin's lair in Oliver Twist. Dickens mentions the locations bad reputation, and the scandal that its inclusion in the novel caused some readers in one of his prefaces. I would be inclined to believe that Stoker picked the location mostly for its reputation of villany more so than any specific reference to the Ripper murders. |
mal x
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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hi
funnily enough, Vlad the impaler was also suspected of ripper style murders too, he used to sneak out at night from his castle..also in addition, he disembowled one of his ``prostitute`` lovers, for claiming to him that she was pregnant.....
so was the ripper like Dracula?...yes of course, that is if the historic story of dracula is true and it probably is...
dracula was one sick bas*** that's for sure, but he was also brave too. |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 131
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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Andrew-
I haven't run into anyone else who's read Machen in a long time. Welcome to the boards.
Kevin-
It's impossible to know much about JTR and read Dickens and not be reminded of JTR! Isn't it fun? I never knew what a common expression "shabby genteel" was until it started popping up in Dickens all over the place.
Any more random JTR references in classic lit, anyone?
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 524
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Hi Mal,
Don't believe everything you read.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Christopher Lowe
Sergeant
Username: Clowe
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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For those who do not have Ripperologist issue 60 here is the version of Stoker’s preface I used.
Author’s Preface
The reader of this story will very soon understand how the events outlined in these pages have been gradually drawn together to make a logical whole. Apart from excising minor details which I considered unnecessary, I have let the people involved relate their experiences in their own way; but, for obvious reasons, I have changed the names of the people and places concerned. In all other respects I leave the manuscript unaltered, in deference to the wishes of those who have considered it their duty to present it before the eyes of the public.
I am quite convinced that there is no doubt whatever that the events here described really took place, however unbelievable and incomprehensible they might appear at first sight. And I am further convinced that they must always remain to some extent incomprehensible, although continuing research in psychology and natural sciences may, in years to come, give logical explanations of such strange happenings which, at present, neither scientists nor the secret police can understand. I state again that this mysterious tragedy which is here described is completely true in all its external respects, though naturally I have reached a different conclusion on certain points than those involved in the story. But the events are incontrovertible, and so many people know of them that they cannot be denied. This series of crimes has not yet passed from the memory -- a serious of crimes which appear to have originated from the same source, and which at the same time created as much repugnance in people everywhere as the murders of Jack the Ripper, which came into the story a little later. Various people’s minds will go back to the remarkable group of foreigners who for many seasons together played a dazzling part in the life of the aristocracy here in London; and some will remember that one of them disappeared suddenly without apparent reason, leaving no trace. All the people who have willingly -- or unwillingly -- played a part in this remarkable story are known generally and well respected. Both Jonathan Harker and his wife (who is a woman of character) and Dr. Seward are my friends and have been so for many years, and I have never doubted that they were telling the truth; and the highly respected scientist, who appears here under a pseudonym, will also be too famous all over the educated world for his real name, which I have not desired to specify, to be hidden from people -- least of all those who have from experience learnt to value and respect his genius and accomplishments, though they adhere to his views on life no more than I. But in our times it ought to be clear to all serious-thinking men that
“there are more things in heaven and earth/ than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
London,
August 1898
B.S.
Source: Dalby, Richard, A Bram Stoker Omnibus, (Foulsham, 1986 pp. 11-12).
Hopefully this along with my article and Robert Eighteen Bisang's as well will trigger some proper debate on the subject. |
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