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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:40 pm: | 
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I am wondering if anyone can help me identify the exact locations of the murder sites on this ordinance map. I can post my own guesses for a start to the discussion. These maps are good as they show enough detail to see individual buildings, alleys, etc.
I am especially interested if anyone can nail down the exact location of 29 Hanbury street, and the George Yard building.
http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/map/index.html
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Hanbury Street site: I may be way off... was it one of the buildings in the red square?
George Yard building site: I am guessing it is this one?
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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If you look at the thread under General Discussion entitled Maps Showing Movements this may be of some help.
Chris |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Thanks Chris... that is indeed helpful. But I didn't see anything on there about Hanbury Street or George Yard. Do you have any feedback on the images I posted above?
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 473
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
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Hi Rob
George Yard buildings is correct. You had the right area for 29 Hanbury Street, I've marked the building for you.
Bucks Row
This is Dutfields Yard, Berner Street
Mitre Sqaure
Millers Court, Dorset Street
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 192
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 4:10 pm: |
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Thanks Rob,
Thats great. How about Castle Alley (McKenzie)?
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 474
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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Hi Rob
I'm not 100% that that this is the exact spot, it's close probably within 10 feet either side.
Rob |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Rob....and Rob,
Going over the MacKenzie inquest I feel that the body was found further north. Near to the rear of the baths, around where the 'C' is in Castle Alley.
Hear are my reasons.....though I may be wrong !
Police-constable Walter Andrews, 272 H, said, - About ten minutes to 1 this morning I saw Sergeant Badlam at the corner of Old Castle-street, leading into Castle-alley. That was on the opposite corner of the publichouse.1 The sergeant said, "All right," and I said the same. I then proceeded up Castle-alley, and tried the doors on the west side of the alley.2 While doing so I noticed a woman lying on the pavement. Her head was lying eastward, and was on the edge of the kerbstone, with her feet towards the building, which was a wheelwright's shop and warehouse.
[Coroner] Was the body touched before the doctor arrived? - Only by my touching the face to see if it was cold. It had not been disturbed.
[Coroner] How far was it from the lamp? - Almost underneath. About 2 ft. from the lamp-post.
1 The Public House was right on the junction of Castle St and Alley, near to the right angle turn at the top of the alley.
2 These door would be the doors to the houses/cottages that join the alley from New Castle st to the west. This is backed up by Andrews later statement...
..[Coroner] How far was it from the lamp? - Almost underneath. About 2 ft. from the lamp-post.
[Coroner] Was any wagon there? - Two; one was a scavenger's wagon, and the other a brewer's dray. They were on the same side of the way. The wagons hid the body from persons in the cottages opposite. The head was almost underneath the scavenger's wagon.
Also later in the inquest.
Mrs. Sarah Frances Smith stated:- I live at the Whitechapel Baths and Washhouses. My husband is a retired police-officer, and is superintendent of the baths. I am money-taker there. The baths back on to Castle-alley, and the window of my room looks into Castle-alley, close to where the body was found. I went to bed this morning between 12:15 and 12:30. I did not go to sleep, and had no idea that anything had happened, until I heard a knock at the door, and also a whistle blown.
[Coroner] If there had been any call for help in the alley would you have heard it? - Yes, certainly. My bedstead is up against the wall, next to Castle-alley.
This would indicate to me that the body was nearer to the Goulston street baths end rather than half way down the alley.
I may be wrong and would welcome any correction.
Respect,
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 481
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Hi Monty,
You may be right, I'm not sure.
This is from "The Illustrated Police News"
"We then [P.C Andrews] proceeded through the alley, and while trying the doors on the west side, in the middle I saw a woman lying on the pavement.
I have a map when the Lamp-post(well I think its a lamp-post, the maps a bit funny) is about half way.
All the best
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
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Seems to me like it would be somewhere between the "C" and the "L" in the word "Castle" on the map. Probably on the west side of the alley on the pavement.
"2 These door would be the doors to the houses/cottages that join the alley from New Castle st to the west. This is backed up by Andrews later statement... "
Monty, I think you may be wrong here. New Castle street is to the east is it not? I think the Constable was checking the doors of the buildings along the west side of the alley. Not the doors of the cottages along the east side (?) Unless I am reading this map wrong... I am assuming the cottages are those little squares along the east side of the alley. There must have been a wagon between the cottages and the body, which I think was on the pavement on the west side of the alley.
?
Rob |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 3:33 am: |
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The two Robs,
Guys, after I posted the above post yesterday I sat down last night and went through it all.
Indeed I was wrong and I apologise for throwing a little confusuion into this thread.
Yes I meant west side not east and yes, I would say that the lamp was in that position.
Again, my apologies.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 194
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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Yo Monty,
It was a good post, don't apologise. I think you were correct in most of it. I get my right and left mixed up all the time anyways.
Rob H |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
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OK,
So here is a new image, with the new proposed location based on Monty's post. I am assuming the body was not next to the "Baths", as the testimony says it was next to a "wheelwright's shop and warehouse", although I don't know which building this was. The red dot I put is opposite the cottages, and near the Baths.
Monty, is the corner with the pub in this blue square?
Rob
(Message edited by robhouse on February 04, 2005) |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 470
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
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Hi Rob,
I hope Monty doesn't mind me butting in like this, but if I'm not mistaken, the Three Crowns public house is the building that's sticking out on the east side of the street (or on the right side, the way we're looking at the map), the one in the north east corner of the blue square. It almost touches the big black "I" of WHITECHAPEL.
All the best,
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 471
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 7:31 am: |
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I know this is off thread, but Monty, I like your tag line. It sounds like something Robert de Niro could have said.  .
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1546
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 3:45 am: |
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Rob and Frank,
Thats pretty much the spot I was thinking....but we are talking a difference of feet here.
Also the pub is indeed within the blue square at the location Frank points out.
And Frank, more like Joe Pesci.
Monty
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 480
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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Ah yes, Monty, that Italian fits better...
Frank
"Every disadvantage has it's advantage."
Johan Cruijff
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