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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1654
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:59 am: | 
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This is just an idle thought and of no value whatever!
In the light of the high prices some articles have sold for on Ebay in the last year or so, I was wondering which object, if it turned up, would command the highest price among Jack enthusiasts. What would an authenticated new photo of Mary Kelly be worth? How much would someone pay for a genuine photo of Abberline? What about existing artefacts - what would be the estimated current market value of the Diary, for instance?
Idle thoughts, as I said. I just wondered what possible artefact, book, diary or object, would command the highest price.
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3977
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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Hi Chris
I think an authenticated photo of Kelly would be very near the top.
Perhaps Donald Rumbelow's possible Ripper knife would be quite valuable.
Druitt's inquest papers, or a morgue shot of Druitt, likewise.
Hopefully Eddowes's kidney will not make an appearance.
As for the Diary : would it come with or without the curse?
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1718
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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Chris,
first i start with a joke answer, umm let's see, something like i pay a lot for Jack the Ripper's gladstone bag complete with knives and matching top hat!
its a good job i told you that was a joke because it wasn't funny.
Now then seriuosly,
i'm surprised by how much some of that stuff went for - it's almost worth biroing JTR on some stuff and ebaying it.
i think a photo of MJK alive would be pretty much priceless.
an orignal painting by Walter Sickert must be worth a bit!!
Anyway you mentioned the D. word but you seem to have gotten away with it!
interesting,
Cheers
Jenni
ps Hi Robert our posts overlapped, cursed!nah!
(Message edited by jdpegg on January 27, 2005)
(Message edited by jdpegg on January 27, 2005)
"What d'you think about that? Now you know how I feel"
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 264
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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Hi Chris - being a big eBay buyer of Ripper stuff I have a couple of things to throw in.
The most I saw a Ripper item sell for last year was £385, and that was an original FAMOUS CRIMES series from 1903.
I did actually see genuine Sickert artwork (drawings rather than paintings) on sale, but it only got bid up to £500 and that was below the reserve.
I bought a Ripper book on eBay a year ago which is the supposed only known original in the world (only available as a reprint I believe). That was into 3 figures, though I paid more for an entire bound Illustrated London News for 1888 that had been the property of the English Embassy in Hungary.
What would be worth most? Well, we have to guess at what exists and what doesn't.
I would agree that Don's 'Ripper Knife' would possibly come top, though do any of us seriously believe it is real?
Of what DID exist, the Eddowes apron would be quite high up, or the iron nameplate for Miller's Court.
Of what MIGHT exist then definitely a photo of MJK. It is very unlikely it will ever happen, but then we thought that generally, and then that photo of Annie Chapman turns up!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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Thanks for the ideas folks
The Rumbelow knife I must admit hadnt occurred to me - interesting
Another one that came to mind - not that it would ever come up for sale - is what the original Dear Boss letter might be worth on the open market. Of course the Lusk letter went missing so might still be out there somewhere
Some interesting suggestions. I think any photos in life of the other victims for whom we don't have photos (Nichols, Stride, Eddowes) would be command a high value but have to agree that a Kelly photo would top them all
The nameplate for Miller's Court was an interesting idea - wonder what happened to it? As it changed its name the sign for Buck's Row would be worth a few quid too I would imagine! On that score, anyone know the exact date when the name changed? And why did that street name change but none of the others did?
Thanks again for the ideas
Chris
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 265
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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Hi Chris.
Someone like the Great (capital letter intentional!) Robert Clack could tell you the YEAR Bucks Row changed to Durward Street, but it wasn't too long afterwards. It got changed because the residents of what was, after all, not the poorest of the areas in which Jack killed, got sick of ghoulish sightseers coming round and the Postman who used to knock on the doors with 'Number 1, Murder Row, I believe?". This is much the same way that Rillington Place is now Bartle Road and there is no #10 - a gap is left between 9 & 11 even though they are different buildings, the destruction of Myra Hindley's grandmother's house in Wardle Brook Avenue, Underwood (though the street retains the name), 25 Cromwell Street...
Of course, Dorset Street was soon after renamed Duval Street so Bucks Row wasn't alone. Hanbury Street had had another name only 50 odd years before...
On the subject of street signs...
Someone on eBay was selling 'an original' signpost for Mitre Square on eBay last year with a start price of £100. They said it had come down on the early 1980s. Thankfully, I got hold of a photo of Mitre Square in 1974 and the signs were totally different. The sign looked brand spanking new, I contacted the seller - they never replied... and never sold it!
Yes, of course, the Dear Boss letter must be the most iconic Ripper item of all time.
I would be fairly sure the Miller's Court sign was dumped and trashed. I'm sure we would know by now if someone had saved it. It's amazing how some folk don't have any feelings about the locations - Winston G Ramsey in his 'East End Then & Now' photographed the spot of the PN murder at the exact time a bulldozer was ripping up the very spot. He told the driver he was erasing a bit of history and got the reply "F*** history - this is progress!".
On another tack, Ramsey now owns the gate to George Yard Buildings. He saved it in 1972 when it was being demolished and put it in his garden. I don't know if the actual gate was there in 1888 but boy would I love to have it myself! That must rank as another valuable Ripper item (as an aside, most people fail to realise a small fragment of GYB is still standing - the part of the building closest to Wentworth Street still has the front wall extending independantly down Gunthorpe Street for a couple of feet, but no one seems to realise it!).
MJK's bed? The print that hung on her wall? Any of the items found on the victims (ignoring the fake shawl of CE)? It is all subjective, of course. We also know there WAS a photo of MJK's eyes taken at Shoreditch mortuary. Probably destroyed, but you never know.
My this is fun speculation!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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Hi Philip
many thanks for the info and ideas:-)
I thought the name change from Dorset Street was quite a bit later - certainly there are press articles well into the 1900s that refer to it as Dorset Street
Yes. Ive seen the photo of the George Yard gateway - quite a large souvenir!
I didnt know the photo of Kelly's eyes was definite - I thight I'd read somehwre that it was proposed but not done. I'll try to look out the reference.
Thanks again for the notes
Chris |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 76
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 2:35 pm: |
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I'd go for Macnaghten's private papers (the private information on Druitt he said he had) or the contents of the safe, said to have been destroyed, that contained photos etc. Maybe found in a descendent's loft.
How about Robert Anderson's diary for 1888?
What if a collection of photographs were found taken by an amateur in 1888 including a batch in Crossingham's? Wouldn't we have fun trying to pick out who we knew - or might know?
Just some ideas not mentioned so far.
I like some of those mentioned. Don R's knife must be worth BIG money for museum's or rich Ripperphile's alone.
Phil
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 459
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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Hi Philip, Chris
I'm not hundred percent certain but the year 1891 is in my head about the Bucks Row name change, I don't know why, but it was certainly prior to 1894.
Dorset Street changed between 1902 and 1908, sorry can't be more exact.
As to artifacts, I think original case papers would fetch a high sum, especial the missing suspect file.
The letter 'Polly' Nichols wrote to her father.
Catherine Eddowes shawl.
Stewart Evan's house with contents.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3978
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Hi Rob
Yes, I suppose it's the difference between official and unofficial with these street names. Certainly one can find references to Buck's Row in the "Times" into the 20th century.
AP's brandy bottles might fetch a bit but, alas, these would be without contents.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 461
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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Hi Robert
At least the contents went to a good home.
Rob |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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What is this knife that Donald Rumbelow has? I have never heard of it before?
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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Hi Rob
Re: the knife
As far as I remember - without looking it up - it originally was one of a pair in a lined box. I remember that a previous owner had used it for gardening (!) and the blade had broken. What its original provenance was and how Don came by it I can't say
One other thought with regard to case papers, another on my wish list would be the file Littlechild mentions relating to Tumblety.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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Another interesting one would be to know what happened to Abberline's papers when he died. The Pall Mall Gazette article of 1903 includes this:
"Mr. Abberline had already covered a page and a half of foolscap, and was surrounded with a sheaf of documents and newspaper cuttings dealing with the ghastly outrages of 1888."
I have no idea what happened to his papers after his death but a buyer would sure be interested in them now!
C
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1659
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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Roeb
Here is a summary of the A-Z on the knife:
1937: knife was given to Miss Dorothy Stroud by Hugh Pollard, partner of Robert Smith, Scotland yard ballistics expert. It was one of an unbroken pair in a box lined with bloodstained velvet. Miss Stroud burned the box, gave one knife away and the second knife boke being used for gardening.
According to Francis Camps it is a 19th century post mortem knife with a thumb grip.
The knife is a surgeon's amputating knife made in the 1870's.
the authors of the A-Z suggest the knife may have belonged to Ostrog.
Hope this helps
C
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 185
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Can anyone help me with a question on this other board:
../4924/15539.html"#DEDDCE"> |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 267
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Rob H : I have heard that Don's knife was rumoured to have been found in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street on the day of the murder. Total tosh, of course, as we would know about it if so! I don't think (not that I can speak for him) Don has any feelings about its history, but it is trotted out every so often for journos and silly TV programmes!
PHILIP
PS : Rob C : Stewart has already said he is giving his entire collection to me (when Hell freezes over).
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
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Something that conceivably could pop up and be of tremendous value would be the memoirs of Robert Sagar, a Detective Inspector for the City Police, and liaison with the Met during the Ripper crimes.
""Reynolds News" (15 September 1946) printed an extract from Sagar's unpublished, and now untraced, memoirs. Sagar wrote that "We had good reason to suspect a man who worked in Butcher's Row, Aldgate. We watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities."
Although there are some differences this could possibly be referring to Swanson's suspect Kosminski. If this is the case it is significant because it suggests that the City Police, to which Sagar belonged, and the Metropolitan Police, to which Swanson belonged, were following similar lines of inquiry. While Sagar was probably aware of Robert Anderson's statements about the ripper being "caged in an asylum" etc he would not have known about the Swanson Marginalia which did not come to light until some 40 years after the above extract was published.
As somebody who had studied medicine, even if only briefly, and was involved in investigating the murders it would have been interesting to have known Sagar's opinions on the amount of skill displayed by the killer."
Source:
Begg, Fido, and Skinner. The Jack the Ripper A-Z.
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 287
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Interesting thread....What would be really cool is if someone turned up an actual Crime Scene Photo other than MJK....not that they were ever taken or anything, but just playing the what if game. I think that would be worth a few pennies.
Paul
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 769
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 3:43 am: |
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How about any sort of independent report or private letter which confirmed the events at the Seaside Home?
"All I know of morality, I learned from football" - Albert Camus
http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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NC
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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Chris,
How about as a set:
- horseshoe stickpin
- massive gold watch chain
- seal with red stone
Then would come the easy matter of testing them for authenticity!
Neale |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1660
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 11:15 am: |
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Hi Neale
What a can or worms that would open!!!
Some good ideas - thanks folks
One more I'd like to add - the Chronicles of Crime of Thomas Dutton emerging after all these years....
Any other crime scene photo would of course have quite a value. One thing that intrigues me is that the only memoirs published which mention the case are from police officials and a few others such as Le Queux . After a good number of years it must have been apparent that interest in the case was still continuing. I wonder if any of the important witnesses or friends were ever tempted to come forward into print - Hutchinson, Barnett etc. I also wonder if Abberline was ever approached to write his memoirs...
All the best
Chris |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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Sorry to butt in.... butt.. I was told a differant story about the knife.
I was told that it had originally belonged to the police and had been taken from the rooms of a lawyer (presume Druitt) following his suicide. However the person who told me this also said that they thought this was unlikely but the knife may have had something to do with a Fanian (spell?) murderer case. What ever it had originally been an exhibbit in police hands. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Also wasnt there another knife found somewhere along the line..sure there was. Many experts I have talked to still beleive there are files and photo's waiting to re-emurge.
A copy of Kelly's Birth certificate would be my ebay bye..cheers
Jeff |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 78
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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There is potentially a link between the Rumbelow knife and those used in the Phoenix Park murders in Dublin earlier in the 1880s. See Nick Warren's article in the Mammoth Book of JtR for the full details. |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 273
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
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Hmm... Don's finally back doing his walks. I had a few words with him in Mitre Square tonight as we always get there at the same time. I should've asked him!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 262
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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Hi all,
Great thread, and I have to agree with the speculation about things we'd like to see - but how about letting us know of the treasures that eBay has already turned up.. I'm curious to know what others might have found on eBay so far.
For me, I guess it would be the Bryant & May tin matchbox (not empty - still has matches in it) for $3, the R Whites 'Ginger Beer' bottle, for $2 (didn't Reid work for R Whites when a lad? Or did I imagine it.. 'fraid my ex sold my "The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper" on eBay sometime this year) and my tobacco tin, with half a label, "Celebrating London" attached, for $1.
Probably boring stuff to the rest of you, but I love those little treasures.
So, I'm curious to know what else others have found..
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 277
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 3:09 am: |
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Stamped tin for Kearley & Tonge, Mitre Square for £3, 2 invoices from businesses trading from Kearley & Tonge for about £2 each, property deeds for The Horse & Leaping Bar pub opposite Castle Alley for £6, only known original copy of the Daisy Bank Publishing Tom Robinson c1928 Ripper book for £'x'. That's probably my best ones. I also own the final statement from 1679 of Lawrence Hill, executed at Tyburn with a couple of others (unjustly) for the murder of Sir Edmund Berry Godfrey, written in the condemned cell at Newgate (I suspect) the night before he died.
Got a long way to go before I beat a certain Ripperologist I can think of though!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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