| Author |
Message |
    
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 138
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:26 pm: | 
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Thanks Hutch,
I wasn't sure who took the photo of the backyard of Hanbury Street that I used to colour up, I was worried about breaching copyright. Copyright is such a pain! From what you have written above, does that mean that the photo I coloured up was pre 1938? if so it's probably okay to use it. I wouldn't want to upset anyone. I'll leave it a little while and see what happens.
Hi Glen,
Just found out that Dutfield's Yard was definitely cobbled, so I'll put the cobbles back in without the blur! (No jokes about it being a load of cobblers.)
I've been all day setting up a new computer system, so I'm a bag of nerves. I hate machines!
Back to Berner Street.
xxxxxxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 139
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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Hi other Phil, (Hill)
I wasn't ignoring you earlier, but had to set a computer up urgently.
Thanks for your post. I have been following your posts all the way through, but haven't had a chance to take part in the discussions. The 'Back to basics' threads, I personally think are a great idea and when they get around to it I will join in.
Just not enough hours in the day.
Keep up the good work
All the best
Jane
xxxxxxx |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 412
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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Jane,
No way can that fence be accurate, because it must have been at least six feet high and solid as in the photos.
Don't be too sure about that. At the inquest, John Davis (who discovered the body) described the fence as about 5 ft. high and Albert Cadosch said the palings were about 5 ft. 6 in. in height. Further, Inspector Chandler said The palings were only temporarily erected, . . which suggests something less substantial than the solid appearing fence in later photographs.
Just one more of the many "if we only knew for sure" elements surrounding these murders.
Don.
"There were only three times I'd have sold my mother into slavery for a cell phone . . . and two of those would have been crank calls."
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 198
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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Don : Exactly.
Jane : I empathise with your PC problems. Hopefully mine are now sorted. We will see.
I have no idea of the date on the Hanbury Street photo - this is why we need to find the first source that printed it. I would guess it would be later rather than earlier, but that is simply because it looks the same in this shot as it looks in the 1967 Mason documentary with the same pile of wood and boards over the cellar door. All I can say is that I don't believe it was the same time as the famous B&W shots of the front, George Yard, Mitre Square etc that Mr Evans took in 1967.
Come on, guys! One of you must know where that backyard photo comes from!
Have you seen the rarer photo of the backyard, Jane? It's been posted on the boards before but this apparently dates to the 1930s. I don't know where it's from. I can e-mail you a bigger one if you want.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1475
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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Hi Jane,I have just looked at the stills from Robert Clacks video which he put up the other day.
The house on the left does indeed look as if it has a cladding painted white but we cant be sure
when it was put on.I have been to the area around Fournier Street,Princelet Street and Hanbury Street numbers of times.I love those old silk weavers houses!I dont think there are many now that have such a cladding [maybe it has been removed?]but regards the windows Rob"s stills definitely show 4 paned sash windows on either side of 29 Hanbury Street which has 12 paned sash windows which are a little bigger.
The old doors are a bugger.It looks to me that
there was a deliberate policy of putting in an extra door possibly to differentiate between the shop entrances and the entrances to the various flats or rooms that were rented out.
At anyrate in the stills it doesnt look as though the frontages were altered with these curved out Georgian bay windows shown in the house on the left.
As far as the fence being so open I accept it may have had temporary palings but they could have been closer to one another than depicted.Otherwise Albert could/would have seen something when he heard that fall agaist the fence,its almost instinctive to turn and look towards a strange sound yet he appears to have seen nothing!
Jane I am still a beginner at putting up images!I will sit down soon and study how its done.I hope to have Hanbury Street done soon though.I am more than half way there but I have to wait for the paint to dry on the window sills before I can move on faster![at the moment it looks as though it needs sanding down and given another coat!
By the way I have seen the hallway of a house being gutted in Fournier Street.The door was wide open and workmen were in the back yard,It was like a 29 Hanbury Street Clone[think its number 18] Same reddish brick and identical windows and type of door and the ground floor layout was fascinating.There was a long hall,then to the side and facing the front of the house the stairs began and the stairs were encased in wooden panelling at their side making a narrow corridoor leadind to the back yard.As it was all being gutted you could also see the bare floor boards and it was very evocative of the layout we read about.I have been a bit off colour the past week and didnt get round to posting quite a few things I had newly discovered.Some though arent relevant to the case.
Looking forward to your next beauties!!!
Natsxxx
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 140
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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Hi Donald,
Thanks for the post. That will teach be to guess instead of getting accurate sources! The only reason I guessed at six feet was because of Albert Cadosch' statement. I know if he had been a woman, he couldn't have resisted standing on tip toe and seeing what the bump against the fence was. Don't hit me girls, I'm only joking!
I suspect though that 5 feet six might be closer to it, because Albert Cadosch seems quite reliable in other ways and it feels more likely.
As Nats pointed out, it must have at least been relatively solid otherwise Albert would probably have seen movement through the palings, even if they were temporary.
It's good to point out to people that as with every thing else about the case there are very few absolutes. Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water........!
Thanks once again for the post. It's amazing how much information is out there, which generally doesn't see the light of day.
All the best jane
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 141
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Hi Hutch,
Thanks for posting that photo. I have got a low res copy of it, but if the other larger one is still under copyright and it can't be used, then maybe that one would be good. If the worst happens I can just paint an illustration of it and then I don't have to worry.
I'm tempted to believe that those little covers might have been there, because I can't imagine why an artist would have made them up, makes a more interesting picture anyway.
The fence is a problem, but thanks to Donald I should be able to come up with something acceptable. The truth is out there somewhere!
Glad you got your PC sorted. I've been setting a Mac system up most of the day, which is why Berner Street isn't finished. I'm not much good with PC's, can use them, but they don't like me. I'm going over to your wonderful art thread now to see what masterpieces are in store.
Love
Jane
I need a good laugh before I go to bed!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 142
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Hi Nats,
Sorry you have been a bit off colour. I hope you feel better soon. I might wait until I see your painting to make up my mind about the Hanbury Street scene. I think it does seem that there was a window on the house to the left, but where did that door come from in one of the sketches?
I'm trying to visualize the passage but can't, maybe you could do a painting of it yourself and post it, I'm sure everyone would love to see it.
If you have problems posting your pictures, just mail them to me and I can put them up for you. I only know how to do it because my daughter showed me!
Love
Jane |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 496
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 8:41 am: |
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I can picture Cadosch getting up and stumbling downstairs to use the outhouse half asleep. The light wasn't real good then and he was dopey with sleep. Its a wonder he remembered the cry and the thump at all let alone looking between the fence boards. But if there were big gaps between the boards wouldnt some of the blood spatter have gone into the next yard? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1478
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 10:47 am: |
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Hi Jane,Thanks for the post.I have nearly finished the painting and hope to post it this weekend[Hey thats a good idea--will ask my daughter to help me---always get my husband to but he is often quite busy at the moment]
Anyway,As soon as I finish it I will start on a close up of the Berner Street passage.I read recently in the Source book that the door of number 29 was left open day and night because the landlady ,Mrs Richardson trusted her neighbours although some tools had been stolen from the cellar which they then began to keep locked a few weeks before.It started me thinking about this lady, Mrs Amelia Richardson.She herself seems to have been kind and very decent but she held weekly prayer meetings at number 29.I began to think about whether any of the men had become aware that her hallway was used not just for people wanting to get to use her toilet but also
as well as the odd vagrant sleeping in the hallway
for those who were about more illicit business!!!
I wonder did the police ever question those who attended her meetings?Its most unlikely I think but worth finding out.Interesting Hanbury Street,it was a bit like Berner Street with a very popular Church Hall meeting place opposite no 29 used by Charles Dickens to read his stories,then by the Match girl Strikers,Eleanor Marx ,and all the same sort of people who attended the Berner Street Club---in other words a meeting place for the famous East End Jewish Radicals and trade union movement.I see links here myself but they are almost certainly coincidences!
Take Care
Natsxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 143
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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Great post Nats,
Mrs Richardson sounds like a good person. Was it her son that went in and typical of a teenager said something to the effect, 'Oh it's alright Mum, just another woman been murdered? I get muddled up with witnesses sometimes. Teenagers don't really change much do they?
I would love to know whether anyone connected with her was questioned. Surely customers would have been?
Interesting too about leaving the door open. My Nan never, ever locked her door during the day and as far as I know neither did any in our street. People just wandered in and out as they felt like it. It was locked at night though, when we went to bed. This put me in mind of the saga of Mary Kelly's lock. I think it very likely that she would have left in on the latch during the day and even if she popped to the shops. It was standard practice. Nan who was brought up in the East End (same area) said that no-one ever dreamt of locking the door during the day, it was just unheard of.
Mrs Richardson seemed to have only begun locking her door after the tools were pinched.
Quite a passage that! It certainly deserves a tribute!
I've finished the long view of Berner Street and I am doing the front of the club and gates now, I'll post them both up together.
Love
Jane |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
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Thanks Jane.
First can I just add that Mrs Amelia Richardson was the landlady.She was the widow of Mr Richardson and carried on with the packing case business after his death.She was 66 or 68years old in 1888.Her son is the one who came and looked around the back for her to see if the lock was on the cellar door.I think her grandson lived with her in an upstairs room and she used the backroom downstairs as a kind of lounge and carry on some of her business as well as another first floor room and importantly in my view the weekly prayer meetings.The windows of this lounge overlooked the yard.It was her son who told police that the upstairs landing was often used by prostitutes bringing back their clients and it made me wonder whether Annie had been kipping up there that night andhad gone to the loo when she was nabbed by the ripper!
It was a Mrs Hardiman who sold the cat meat and had the sixteen year old son!
I leave it there Jane because I think we should probably discuss it on the Annie Chapman thread.But your pictures stimulate such discussion re the layout of the crime scene etc which is such important an area of study!
I havent forgotten either the layout of that street and the fact that such a famous meeting place was almost directly opposite number 29!
Very interesting what you say about people never locking their doors there,though you did add "except at night".Strange that Mrs Richardson
didnt lock up at night when two of these viscious murders had happened!
Natsxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 145
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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Thanks for the info Natalie, Got the picture now, with so many people living in the house, it's not surprising I got lost!
I've finished two views of Berner Street (night and day) and just have to polish them up a bit.
I'll post them up in the morning UK time. I think they are okay, but on past record who knows! I'll probably find out I got them totally wrong!
Catch you later,
Jane
xxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 146
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:02 am: |
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Hi All,
Here are the pics of Berner Street that I've done so far. The first view I had trouble with, because the photo I had to work from was grim, so I had to make a lot of it up or at least guess. I'm sure I've got loads wrong, but it's a start.
 |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 147
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:12 am: |
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Here are the other two of the front of the yard and club. I only had one drawing to work from, and I couldn't see the bottom half of the front, because of all the sightseers. (Still being a nuisance after 116 years!) Definitely got things wrong on this one.
I made the front of the cottages on the left hand of the yard raw brick, even though the inside view of the yard shows the side whitwashed. I couldn't see from the terrible photo of the frontge what the material was, so my husband said that even though the front elevation was brick they could have whitewashed the side wall to lighten up the yard. I am a bit loathe to make the side wall brick as it makes the inside of Dutfield's Yard look awful, but obviously will have to if it's not right.
Here they are:
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2918
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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Aaaaaw!!!!
Super, Jane!
Great stuff. Well, you certainly won't get any comments regarding changes from me on this one.
Exceptional! Both of them. In details, lighting, colours... everything.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 148
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:16 am: |
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They've come up a bit light again and the colours have changed, but they are okay.The light in the club window at the bottom has come out very bright, it looks like a ghostly presence! Maybe it's Diddles.
I'm doing a few views of Mitre Square and will have them up within a couple of days.
Lots of love to all
Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2919
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:16 am: |
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Ooopppss!
And there came the other set of pictures (the fronts)!
Well, what can I say.
The frames and and edges of the windows could be a bit more straight, but otherwise... BEAUTIFUL!
Worth waiting for. I especially like the night scene.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:17 am: |
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Jane,
Look at my latest post on Hutchinson's art thread in Pub Talk. Diddles is innocent!
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 149
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:29 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
Thanks, I'm always terrified of posting the pics, I'm a people painter and buildings generally leave me cold. I have an aversion to straight lines, know nothing about architecture and wouldn't know a vanishing point if it reared up and bit me, but I am getting a bit better with all this practice!
Are there any particular views of Mitre Square anyone would like to see? I've got about four, possibly five shots to use, which I think covers all angles. What about the passage? I have a photo from one end, but not sure if it's usable.
I'll get stuck in and see what happens.
big hugs to everyone
Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2922
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:48 am: |
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Hi Jane,
I know what you mean; I prefer to do people too.
I am not sure -- I don't know which photos or pictures you have.
There is the murder sketch, naturally, which shows the murder spot quite clearly from a suitable angle,'
and then there's my favourite (there exists similar other ones from the same period):
(the horse is not needed, of course, since it blocks the view -- the idea is to make the square as desolate as possible in order to create the right atmosphere)
If you refer to Church Passage I found Stewart Evan's photo on this site; there may be other ones:
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 11:09 am: |
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Jane,
Regarding the photo of Mitre Square above...if you use this or any other from the same period it might be worth acknowledging that Kearley & Tonge didn't have their warehouse in the building to the right at the time of the murder (but in a building more further to the right, outside the picture). The building shown was at the time occupied by Williams & Co.
So the sign on the facade has to be erased.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 498
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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As usual, Jane, wonderful. Spryder, you have to make a page for these! |
Steven Moore
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:20 am: |
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Jane, I want to congratulate you on these excellent reconstructions they are very good.
I was just wondering if anyone with computer skills could combine these reconstructions with a 3d model of the area and create a walkthrough rather like the myst series of games.
You could visit the various murder locations and tread in the footsteps of the ripper himself. |
Louis van Dompselaar
Sergeant
Username: Etaoin
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 2:35 pm: |
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Great work on Berner Street Jane. Although I'm slightly puzzled. Wasn't the third storey of the IWC added after 1888? At least the A-Z mentions it being 'extended upwards since the murders' in this 1909 photograph.
I'm not quite sure I read or seen it confirmed anywhere else though.
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 150
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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HI Glenn,
Thanks for the pics. I have the one with Dobbin in, that's my favourite too. I also have the later one with the cars, which is a bit useful for reference. I'm so glad you told me about the sign. I was just about it colour it in glorious technicolour. I'll get rid of it now.
It has been a nightmare I must admit, about the hardest one so far. I got totally lost at one point and was going to ask you to come and rescue me. I think I've sorted it out now. That horse is a menace, because you can't see what's at the bottom on the wall in front. I sort of guessed in the end looking at the other photos of the square. I still can't actually picture it as such. I've been mentally wandering around the square all day trying to get my bearings and failing dismally.
I'll post what I've got within a day or so and perhaps you can help me then. The real problem is that it is rather a drab scene and I am going to have to be quite inventive to brighten it up a bit.
The passage one I am going to do, but I want to fathom out what was on either side of it and extend it a bit. How's that for hopeful?
Thanks again,
Love Jane
By the way I am going to straighten those windows out - looks like the place is about to fall down - and that was without a shery! |
Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 151
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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HI Glenn,
Thanks for the pics. I have the one with Dobbin in, that's my favourite too. I also have the later one with the cars, which is a bit useful for reference. I'm so glad you told me about the sign. I was just about it colour it in glorious technicolour. I'll get rid of it now.
It has been a nightmare I must admit, about the hardest one so far. I got totally lost at one point and was going to ask you to come and rescue me. I think I've sorted it out now. That horse is a menace, because you can't see what's at the bottom on the wall in front. I sort of guessed in the end looking at the other photos of the square. I still can't actually picture it as such. I've been mentally wandering around the square all day trying to get my bearings and failing dismally.
I'll post what I've got within a day or so and perhaps you can help me then. The real problem is that it is rather a drab scene and I am going to have to be quite inventive to brighten it up a bit.
The passage one I am going to do, but I want to fathom out what was on either side of it and extend it a bit. How's that for hopeful?
Thanks again,
Love Jane
By the way I am going to straighten those windows out - looks like the place is about to fall down - and that was without a sherry! |
Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 152
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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HI Stephen,
What a great idea. If anyone has the technical skills to do it, I can provide all the views they need, as tileable or panoramas or whatever, they just have to tell me what they need. It would be totally awesome. A virtual JtR tour, but as accurate as possible. It would be amazing. You'd have to take a bravery pill before entering and be shaking when you came out, but I'd be up for it!
All the Best
Jane
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Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 153
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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last one for now,
Oh come on I deserve a few frivolous posts!
I made Inspector! YIPPEE!!!!
HI Louis,
I honestly don't know about any extension work of the Club. I'm not at all up on architecture, as you might have noticed if you have been following my postings! If I'd been building it, it would have fallen down long before it was pulled down!
The picture I used for source was the line drawing of the frontage and I believe that was contemporary with the murder, but I wouldn't swear to it. Perhaps someone out there can put us straight? It's actually an easy job to correct if so, which makes a change.
Thanks for pointing it out. As with all of these scenes, getting it right is a nightmare.
All the best
Jane |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
"That horse is a menace, because you can't see what's at the bottom on the wall in front. I sort of guessed in the end looking at the other photos of the square"
I remember those great photos of Mitre Square with the cars as well.
I don't know how much you can see of the walls on the buildings there (that is behind the horses on the photo above), but maybe those buildings are visible enough on the police sketch below as a reference?
Hope this helps.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2928
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
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And... I forgot...
Jane!
Congratulations to the promotion!
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
These are great!I love the lighting in the night time one but the daylight one of Berner Street corner is also a treat.You really have made these places possible to "see".
Thanks too Jane for all the hard work.
Natsxxx |
Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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Hi Glen and Natalie,
Ahhhhhhh! Scream, hair pulling and all sorts of ouch. Mitre Square is a total nightmare!
I have managed to put together a night time scene which isn't too bad and another view of goodness knows which bit of Mitre Square, which looks okay, but other than that I'm having the screaming ab dabs.
That picture is a life saver Glenn, because I had got it totally wrong. I'm glad you put that up before I posted the pic. Would anyone be a darling and scribble on this photo where exactly the gate (murder spot) is and anything else that you think might be relevant?
I am hopelessly lost. All help gratefully received!
By the way it National Hugging Day here in the UK, so very big hug to everyone.
Love
Jane
 |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 6:28 pm: |
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Dont know this pic Jane but a big hug to you too
Natsxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2929
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
I must say I am surprised over the fact that you find Mitre Square difficult to that extent, because that is probably the murder site that is best documented in pictures.
I would have imagined this would be the easiest one of all to put together.
I don't think that particular photo is that helpful to you, really.
Almost everything related to the murder spot (except the buildings to the left) are gone and apparently also the buildings seen on the sketch above that stood where the motorcycels are (they are still gone -- today you see all the way to Mitre Street through the square).
Eddowes body was lying exactly behind the small dark grey van in the corner. At the time of the murder there was a fence and closed gate leading into a yard (see the sketch).
So it's the same south-west corner -- where the murder occurred -- that is shown on the police sketch.
So there really isn't that much to gain from this photo as far as buildings is concerned (except from the ones to the far left).
The spot from where the photo is taken, the entrance to the passageway to St. James Place, is where the only gas lamp stood.
There was another one in the corner of the square at the entrance to Church Passage (sitting on the wall!) -- if you look at the photo of the passage, that wall lamp would have been sitting on the right side, on the far end of the passage (the square entrance).
All the best
G. Andersson, authorSweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 21, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2930
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
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And a big hug from me too, Jane.
Keep up the good work. You're a work horse.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 212
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 9:00 pm: |
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Hugs all round!!!
Glenn : Look at my latest post on Hutchinson's art thread : OK, ANDERSSON!!!
Steve M : Smashing idea. That'd be a wonderful tool.
Jane : To the left of Church Passage was (and still is) the 18th Century Sir John Cass Foundation School. This shot was taken by Stewart Evans in 1967 and I think will need a lot of imagination. It is far too modern and angular to be of much use. I'd personally not bother with this - I don't reckon it looked like this shot does at all.
Well done on making Inspector!
I'm 99% sure Glenn has made an error with his angling of the Stewart Evans 1967 shot with the cars (because that's who took this last one and when!) - I am fairly positive (well, pretty much COMPLETELY positive!) this was taken from where Williams and Co was, so the stairs and things you see in the other far corner is actually Church Passage (in other words, Ripper's Corner is on the side the photographer was, but Stewart was standing in the corner looking across the Square with buildings to his left and behind - you get me? Ripper's Corner is off shot to the photographers total right). This shot can't be of Ripper's Corner because Mitre Street always led into the Square with an entrance right in the middle - it is the only vehicle access. If this shot is OF Ripper's Corner, where's the entrance to Mitre Square gone? And more to the point - where's Kearley & Tonge? It is logically ONLY possible that this shot is ultimately of no use to you in any way unless you are doing a 360 degrees of Mitre Square!
Louis : I think Jane took the image of the IWEC from an 1888 Illustrated Police News. Are you sure it wasn't the extension of it that was extended?
Jane : I am going to e-mail you something nice in a moment, but here are 3 other lovely shots of the Ripper's Corner area.
2 are dodgy photocopies I have tried to improve from my 1938 William Stewart 'Jack The Ripper : A New Theory' - the second also showing not only the location of CE's body, but also Stewart's lamentable attempt at sketching her (the only serious attempt until yours!).
The last one has Ripper's Corner just off to the left, but nicely shows the back of Taylor's shop and the opening into Mitre Street.
You know you can count on me!
PHILIP
x
Oh, to Hell with it - let's do one more of Kearley & Tonge and the original St James' Passage (so this is taken standing at Ripper's Corner to the opposite corner, yeah?)
(Message edited by philip on January 21, 2005)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2935
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 4:19 am: |
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Hi Hutch,
Well, you should know this better than me, and yes, I think you are right, actually! Rats.
What I did was to look at the police sketch and compare it to the photo, and the building to the left felt in my mind similar. I totally forgot about that row of buildings left to Church Passage. *sigh* Yes, that building near Church Passage looks identical to the ones on the photo.
The spot where Mr. Evans stood with his camera also feels like being some sort of passage entrance (which I still feel, since there is a corner of a building to the right -- where I think the Mitre Street entrance would have been -- and I still feel this to be a bit strange), which fooled me.
But even more... on the Casebook's Victorian London section -- where this photo is situated -- it SAYS that Stewart Evans has been standing in the entrance to St. Jame's Passage and is looking out over the murder spot!!!! So if that's not the case, that caption is a complete error. That should be changed, then.
Well, it doesen't matter. That particular photo is of no use to us here anyway, I feel.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2937
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 4:43 am: |
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By he way, Hutch.
Great photo, that big close-up from the murder spot. I think that should be of good use to Jane.
I have never seen that one before, but obviously William Stewart's book seems to be worth checking out.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 445
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
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Hi Everyone,
Natalie, I hope you are feeling better, I'd give you a big hug, but I did that to a young lady yesterday, and she screamed.
Philip, Glenn's right I'm afraid, the Stewart Evans photo is taken from St James Passage. The buildings from Ripper's corner I believe were demolished during the war. There was a discussion on it in the 'Victims' Catherine Eddowes, Threads, under 'Mitre Square, Rippers corner photo'.
The third photo you posted is the entrance (or exit, depending on which way you are coming from)to Church Passage.
The backyard photo of Hanbury Street you posted is I believe taken prior to demolition. The reason being is that the photo is in the collection of Truman, Hanbury and Buxton.
Hi Jane
Great Pictures as always. I don't know if this copy of Berner Street is any better for you. It's a bit darker, but some of the detail is a bit clearer.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2941
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:30 am: |
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OK Rob,
Thanks. That was the last time I let old Hutchie boy confuse me. Why do I never stick to my original intuition and interpretations?????? After all, I have been very much involved in local historical architecture discussions here at home for a long time, but as I said, I am rather dusty on the London environment...
I DID think that the house to the left on the photo was similar to the one on the sketch, and that works, if what Rob says is true, that what we see on Hutch's third photo is the entrance to Church passage. That would make it the same building as seen to the left on the discussed photo by Evans and the one on the sketch, as I imagined it would be.
Thanks for clearing this up, Rob.
Now all I've got to do is to rescue what's left of my university diploma and my old historical architecture books that I threw into the fire a couple of minutes ago...
 
Are you confused, Jane? Don't be ... all will be revealed in the next episode of...
(P.S I hope your feeling better as well.)
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 223
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
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Rob : Oh, I SEE it now! Gotcha! I thought the interpretation was that Ripper's Corner was off to the left of this shot, but it is actually in the middle and all the buildings have gone. That makes a lot more sense - so the ones we see in the background are those in Mitre Street. Yep.
Obviously the other photo of Hanbury Street would be prior to demolition? It's intact!?
I picked up my Winston Ramsey yesterday - WOW!!! What an amazing book! He really did his work, didn't he? Not too sure if I agree totally with his location of CE's body though - I think it was a yard further to the left myself. But to see an image lain out of where ES's body was INSIDE the current school wall was really something! And you're right - it weighs a ton!!!
The mistake with that 3rd photo was just a late night oversight on my part. Of course the buildings on the right don't follow the line of those on the left so it couldn't be Ripper's Corner. I was tired!
The details that Ripper's Corner came down before 1967 does give me some confusion for another shot I have, though. I think I'll have to ask Stewart Evans myself about this one.
Nevertheless, I posted 2 images you don't often see on Casebook so  to you!
Glenn : You smell. So there.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2944
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
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Hutch,
"Nevertheless, I posted 2 images you don't often see on Casebook so to you!"
Indeed you did. That one by William Stewart i had never seen before. It was probably something like that Jane was looking for. So good work. I'll give you a salary raise for that.
"Glenn : You smell. So there."
Now, now, don't be a sore loser... See what happens when you try to correct an Assistant Commissioner? It never pays off.
I certainly hope I don't smell -- not tonight. It's Saturday! After all, I did take a bath two months ago.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 155
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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I give up!
No wonder I got lost in Mitre Square! You've made me feel better actually because I am obviously not a total twerp for losing my bearings. I think the problem is that all the buildings, apart from slightly different shaped windows look more or less the same to me.
I have to say very reluctantly, that men do seem generally to have a better grasp of structural dimensions and objects in space. It must something to do with the predominant half of their brain! The girls are going to wallop me for that!
I did spend most of the night wandering around Mitre Square in the half of my brain that works and I think I have finally got it, thanks to the pics you posted. I have done a couple of views which I will post, which may or may not be right, but they are a foundation to work on.
The sketch you posted Glenn is great, it's the next view I'm going to do.
The 2nd picture that Hutch posted is wonderful and that's the next one. I'll give the one with the bikes a miss, although the building on the left might be useful. I'll leave that on the back burner. I can see where it is now that I've put everything together.
Have to go now, my hubby is useless with computers bless him and I've got to set a scanner up for him. I'll post the two views I've done shortly.
love
Jane
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:44 am: |
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Hi Philip
Sorry I missed out the word 'just', I meant to say 'just prior to demolition'
The reason I mentioned the third photo is that I have seen it listed in a publication as 'Rippers Corner'.
I'm glad you got your 'East End then and now' I understand what you mean about his positioning of Catherine Eddowes body. I know someone said the layout of the square is the same but that corner looks a bit small now, I mean it's hard to imagine Mr Taylor's shop and the other houses fitting in.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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Rob,
That "someone" was probably me.
I asked a couple of people about it at the time, and that was what they told me; I have no idea myself.
To be frank, I have to agree -- I have always felt that area to be rather small. But then again; EVERYTHING in Mitre Square seems smaller and more shrunk than it should be. I once said that the place felt more like a back yard than a square and I still believe that's true. I bet it was once populated by elvs.
But don't take my word on anything; I am not on home turf here.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
I honestly can't remember where I heard it, but the corner does seem a little tight today, especially compared to Foster's sketch. I try not to use the photos for comparison as they were most certainly taken with a wide lens which makes the square look huge compared to what it actually is.
All the best
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 448
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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I hope Jane doesn't mind me posting this here. Just something I had been fiddling about with the past few days.
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
I dont mind about the hug![and thanks for the indirect "young"compliment ---I wish!!!].
The photographic enhancement is really excellent
Rob and makes this image so much easier to "read".I like your use of brown too-it gives the buildings an even more run down look than in back and white!
By the looks of the windows the place is about to be demolished dont you think?
Cheers Nats |
thomas schachner
Sergeant
Username: Thomas
Post Number: 48
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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robert...! amazing! this one looks really real!!! .-)
the colors are soooo accurate - that's how houses still look like over there!
great work!!!
(Message edited by thomas on January 22, 2005) |
