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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 120
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:54 am: | 
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Oh Diana, thank you so much, lot to plough through, but so helpful, especially the bit about the lights not coming in at all from the street, I had a vague idea that the street light might have thrown a bit of light on one side of the yard, away from Liz's body, but obviusly wrong.
I've been slower than a bear with a belly full of buns today, but Dutfield's yard is getting better.
Thanks for the measurements Paul 18 ft to kitchen door. I'll lay the doors I've put in there on the ground as it were and work out that 3 of them is probably about right. I'm beginning to wish JtR had done it in the street, would have been a damn sight easier!
Thanks Jane
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 121
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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Juat noticed the bit about the paving stones.
Lots of rude swear words..........
Does that mean that there were no cobbles or that there were cobbles and some paving stones along the edge as a sort of footpath to the club, or was it mud with a few paving stones. Help!
Jane
tearing her hair out in clumps!!!! |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 489
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Ok, I found more. Dont forget the drain with the grapestalk in it.
From the testimony of Police Constable Henry Lamb as recorded in the Times: (pg 162) The CORONER. -- There is a recess in the yard, is there not? Did you go there?
Witness. -- Yes; and I afterwards went there with Dr. Phillips. I examined the dustbin and dungheap. I noticed there was a hoarding, but I do not recollect looking over it. After that I went and examined the steps and outside of Messrs. Hindley's premises. I also looked through the windows as the doors were fastened. . .
From the testimony of Edward Spooner recorded in the Times: (pg 163) . . . I noticed that blood was running down the gutter
From the testimony of Mr. Frederick William Blackwell (pg 167). The deceased was lying on her left side completely across the yard. Her legs were drawn up, her feet against the wall of the right side of the yard passage. Her head was resting almost in the line of the carriage way, and her feet were about three yards from the gateway. The feet almost touched the wall, and the face was completely towards the wall . . . The right hand was lying on the chest, and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open. The left hand was lying on the ground and was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper. There were no rings or marks of rings on the fingers. The appearance of the face was quite placid, and the mouth was slightly open. There was a check silk scarf round the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly. There was a long incision in the neck, which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife. The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 1/2 in. below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it. . . terminated on the opposite side 1 1/2 in. below the angle of the right jaw . . . the blood was running down the gutter into the drain. It was running in an opposite direction to the feet.[so that is where the drain was]There was a quantity of clotted blood just under the body. The CORONER. -- Were there no spots of blood anywhere? Witness. -- No. Some of the blood had been trodden about near to where the body was lying. The CORONER. -- Was there any blood on the side of the house, or splashes on the wall? Witness. -- No. It was very dark at the time, and I only examined it by the policeman's lamp. I have not since examined the place. The CORONER. -- Did you examine the clothing? Witness. -- Yes. There was no blood on any portion of it. The bonnet was lying on the ground, a few inches from the head. . . I noticed she had a bunch of flowers in her jacket. . .(pg 168) was not raining at the time. There was no wet on the deceased's clothing . . .
From the testimony of Elizabeth Tanner recorded in the Times: (pg 170) At that time she was wearing the long jacket I have seen in the mortuary.
From the testimony of Dr. George Bagster Phillips as recorded in the Times: (pg 176)
. . . there was a packet of cachous in the left hand. A number of these were in the gutter. . . there was an abrasion of the skin about 1 1/4 in diameter, apparently stained with blood, under her right brow. . . There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head. . . (pg 177) Examining her jacket . . . there was a small amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud . . . pg 178 . . . The blood had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance of the club . . .
Testimony of Detective Inspector Edmund Reid recorded in the Times: (pg 189) . . . correct description of the body and clothing . . . length 5 feet 2 in., complexion pale, hair dark brown and curly. . . . eyes were light grey . . . lost her upper teeth in front . . . (pg 190) She had an old black skirt, and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose. She had two light serge petticoats, white stockings . . . side spring boots, and black crape bonnet. In her jacket pocket I found two pockethandkerchiefs, . . .
Thats all the Companion says |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Hi Jane,well obviously those extracts from Diana"s book cover nearly everything.The yard must refer not to the little road or passage where Elizabeth was killed but to the area at the back of the house.
As for the cobbles I think it was common to do a patched up job.Any cobbles that had been there from when the Forge was more frequented would have been preserved and maybe near the entrance to the gate there were a few paving slabs-maybe cheap broken ones.The rest would have just been ground,hardened oil etcAnyway its very good of you to put such time and effort into these lovely pieces of Art.
Natsxxx
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:29 pm: |
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Hi Philip,
I will look the info on the passage up as soon as I can.I think the houses in Hanbury Street were built by the same builders as those in Fournier Street.Do you know the brilliant duo well enough to ask to take a peek at their passage[nearly crossed that out but its OK since their humour is outrageous].Seriously if you could check on the size of the hallways in any of those lovely old houses I think they would probably be quite spacious.So maybe later the one passage became two
but I dont think it was like that in 1888-may be wrong though.
Hi Jane[again] the place where they sold the cats meat was in the front room maybe via the shuttered window space.The woman and her grandson slept in the room ate in the room and sold catmeat in the room apparently.They possibly had a daily delivery.To be hoped no one was selling horse manure next door!
I think they did actually bag that up quick in a small sack and sell it by the pound.Hey,this is typical Brit anal retention stuff!
Natsxxx |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 490
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 2:56 pm: |
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The condition of Liz'jacket and hair give some clue to the condition of the yard. The left side of the jacket was "plastered" with mud and so was the left side of her head. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 438
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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Hi Natalie, Philip
Philip I would agree with you about 29 Hanbury Street, It would seem logical to me to have an entrance into the cats meat shop just to the right of the passage near the entrance. The start of the staircase was leading to the upper floors was three quarters of the way along the passage.
Natalie, I posted some colour images of 29 Hanbury Street from 1967, on The 'Whitechapel', 'Pictures of East End' thread if they are of any use to you.
Rob |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 491
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
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Here's what the Casebook Timeline for Stride said about Dutfield's yard:
Philip Kranz went to work in the printing offices of Der Arberter Fraint, (a local publication for socialist Jews), located behind the International Workingmen's Educational Club at 40 Berner St.45
Berner St is a residential street located in the Northern area of St. George's-in-the-East parish, near Whitechapel. It ran North-South from Commercial Rd to Ellen St, (two blocks south of Boyd St). Berner St ended at the London, Tilbury and Southern railway. It is crossed by Fairclough St at its midpoint. Beyond Ellen St lay the Swedish Church.
On Berner St's Western-side, heading North of Fairclough St, lay a public house, The Nelson, (#46, North-West corner of Fairclough & Berner St); Matthew Packer's greengrocer's shop (#44); a cottage (#42); a double-gated entry, leading to Dutfield's Yard; The International Workingmen's Educational Club (#40); residence of Barnett Kentorrich (#38), residence of Mrs Fanny Mortimer (#36)and more cottages, including Charles Letchford's residence (#30) and Edwin Sumner's greengrocer shop (#2).
On Berner St's Eastern-side (North of Fairclough), stood several houses with a board school (#25-41) at the North-East corner of Fairclough & Berner St. on the South-East corner of the junction was a dwelling house (#43).
On the South-West Corner of this junction was Henry Norris's chandler shop (#48, opposite The Nelson). On the Western-side of Berner St heading South from Fairclough St was William Marshall's residence (#64). On the Northern corner of Boyd & Berner St was the George IV public house (#68, owned by Edmund Farrow). Continuing South on the Western-side there was Louis Friedman's baker shop (#70), Jacob Lubin's greengrocer shop (#74), and a chemist, John Simkin (#82). (There were 82 numbers listed on Berner St at the time.)46
The International Workingmen's Educational Club (IWEC or the club) sat north of and adjacent to Dutfield's Yard. It was an old wooden house converted for use as a social club capable of holding over 200 people. A stone office, consisting of 2 rooms, was added onto the rear of the club. One of those rooms was used by the editor of Der Arberter Fraint, and the other was used as a composing room. The front of the ground floor sported one window and door. The street entrance opened to a hallway which ran the length of the house. One door in the hallway led to the front room, used as dining room. A staircase leading to the first floor was in the middle of the hallway. Past the stairs, a door lead to the kitchen, (a rear ground floor room). Beyond that door, another door lead to a passage which ran along side the house. The first floor contained a room used for entertainment. The front of the room held a small stage. The only windows, three, looked out at the rear of the house. The room was decorated with plain benches, and several portraits hung on the walls. To the left of the IWEC's front entrance was Dutfield's Yard.47
The yard was named after Arthur Dutfield, a manufacturer of vans and carts whose business lay to the west of the yard. Entrance into the yard from Berner St was gained via a 9'-2" wide gateway, supporting 2 wooden gates which swung into the yard. A small man-door was set within one of the gates. Inside the gateway, a passage ran along the IWEC, leading to its rear entrance. Opposite of which were 2 lavatories. To the south of the yard was a house occupied by several tenants. Opposite the gateway was Walter Hindley's workshop for manufacturing sacks. Next to the workshop was an unused stable, which was next to the rear of the club. The yard had no light of its own. The light which emanated from the club's first floor fell more on the opposite cottages than into the yard. Light from the club's open kitchen door and from Der Arberter Fraint's offices fell further up the yard. For about 18' inside the gateway, there was typically no light after sunset; yet, this area was not unfrequented.48
I am going to try to upload an image of the front of the IWEC that I scanned in from the Companion. I am very bad at this. All previous uploading attempts over the years have failed. But here goes.
 |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 123
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Thanks Diana,
The quality of the pic is much better than the one I have, and I can see that the W stands for Walter, which I'll need for the front gates.
The drain is a bit of a pickle, what I'll do for the moment is leave it out, because when I do the pics of the position of victims I will need to go into that in detail and I can add it at a later date when I get to that. It will need a lot of thinking about to get it exactly right, and it is important as you say because of blood flow etc.,
Robert that is not a letter box in the gate, it's a feature ( don't know what it is in other words, but definitely not a letter box!)
Natalie, thanks for the info on cobbles etc., What I'll do is leave it a bit open at the moment as with the drain and look at it later when I do the other pic. I think I need a break from Dutfield's yard for a day or two!
Diana again,
The piece about Liz's position has saved me loads of work, ploughing through old stuff, thanks, because while I'm plodding through reams of notes I'm not actually putting pics together, you've saved me ages there and I know there are others who will find them useful in this context.
I'm going to get onto Hanbury Street again tomorrow and finish one elevation of that off, then do the Berner Street one that I think
(Paul?) wanted.
Thanks once again,
Jane
xxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 124
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
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Here are the revised Dutfield's Yard. I think it's better, but maybe not still right. I'll put the drain and get the cobbles right when I do a close up pic later. If you think it still needs any changes please say so, because I really won't mind. I can take off old images to save poor Stephen's bandwidth (once someone tells me how to do it!)
Here goes panic setting in, even as I type!
Hope it's long enough now! |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 125
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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They look about the right brightness etc.,
I got told off last night for leaving the copyright off, boo hoo.... sob, so I've remembered to put it on.
I've already decided that if I do get any royalties from any of these, (there's hopeful if you like - I'm not holding my breath!) I have to do something to thank everyone who has helped. The only way I could think of was to donate as much as I could to the Tsunami appeal on everyone's behalf. Maybe a daft idea, but it was all I could think of, because I can't do them on my own and I hope that the pics will be useful to someone on the site anyway.
Hanbury and Berner Street next.
loveJane
xxxxx |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1465
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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The matter of whether the International men"s Education Club was made of wood is categorically refuted by Paul Begg in his latest book,JtR The Facts.He is very thorough too and would have double checked all the evidence for sure.I think you made a good point Jane when you said maybe it had an annexe.I am sure this is the confusion because in "the Letters of JtR,there is a drawing of the spot where E.S."s body was found and the building just above[the house]is clearly built of brick;while to the rear is a change of material[the Annexe]its difficult to say if its wood or not.
The big gates had an inserted smaller wicker gate which was used when the gates were locked.Is that maybe what Robert is thinking of when he talks of a letter box?
Natalie |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 126
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Thanks Nats,
I don't think there is any doubt that it was brick. I put the wicker gate in darkness, to cover a multitude of sins.
I still not sure if the yard does look long enough if is 18 ft to the kitchen door, but I suppose if the rest of the gates were put in and the lintel it might just reach that. I'm so sick of it for a bit I'll come back to it when I've had a break.
Philip sent me a lovely pic of Annie in life, which I might colour up for a bit of light relief.
Going over to the nutters thread now for a laugh, I need it!
love Jane
xxxxx |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1466
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
Our posts must have crossed.
I love the illumination given by the upstairs window of the club.I think it may be a tiny bit too bright since it was gas light but it would have been bright enough because this has been commented on by contemporary witnesses.
I think too that as Glenn said the yard "opens up" and becomes much wider than the passage and although there is a hint of this here it could be a little more pronounced which in turn may help to further reduce the size of the wooden stables.
But beautifully done Jane,just as it is its great!
Natsxxx |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 493
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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I wanted to give to the Tsunami victims more than I did. I think that's a great idea. I think you have the makings of a great coffee table book here. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 494
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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I suspect that the passageway and yard were like a letter L rather than a letter T. #42 was a cottage which probably didn't project backward into the yard as far as #40, the club and print shop behind it. From the picture I suspect the space between 40 and 42 was a little over 9 feet encompassing the gate. That space would have made up the passageway. Where the smaller #42 ended the yard broadened out from the passageway. If the passageway and yard were like a letter T you would have to explain what was done with the waste space between the passageway and the sides of the buildings. Also Liz' blood is described as running from her neck into a gutter which ran along the wall and ended in a grate by the kitchen door. If the structure was T shaped the blood would have had to go around a corner. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2873
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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Jane!
Yeees!!!! Great! I am jumping up and down with joy! Now it works much better.
Finally, Dutfield's Yard has come to life (hahaha, this is so much fun!)
And now you can sense that there are an open yard space to the right (yes, Diana, I suspect the premises were formed as an L).
And the illumination in the upper stairs in the night pic is much more effective as well.
A great improvement.
But what happened to the cobble stones? Why did you blur them up? They were absolutely fine as they were!
Great stuff and standing ovations from me.
(God, I am really looking forward to my special favourite... Mitre Square! Now there's a spooky place for you...)
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2874
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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Jane,
Regarding removing old images, the best way would probably be to e-mail Stephen about it and tell him which pictures on which posts (date and time) you want to delete.
Since the very stupid rule, where you can't edit your own posts after fifteen minutes have passed since posting, was introduced (I NEVER saw the point in that -- scrap that ridiculous one, Spry!!!!!), that is probably the only solution.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 168
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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Hi folks.
Sorry for lack of postings today; I am having huge difficulties with the W32 worm which infected my PC straight through my Norton Antivirus and has been causing me unknown trouble - but thank God there are loads of folk here and elsewhere ready to help! Still not gone, though. It's getting there.
Nats : Last autumn I was talking in Hanbury Street and saw a man in an opposite house go in through the door. It was no wider inside than the door would suggest. The brief footage on THE LONDON NOBODY KNOWS of Number 29 in 1967 shows it to be likewise. Sadly, I don't 'know' Gilbert & George at all. Met them a couple of times but that was it.
Also - pedantic git that I am - wasn't it Harriet Hardimann's 16 year old SON and not grandson? He came in from seeing the disturbance in the yard to tell her "It's all right, mother - it's just another woman been killed"!
Jane : The updates are great and I am delighted to have just been involved in them in a small way - though of course I would hope by now that everyone would have given something to the Tsunami appeal.
Glenn : I agree with you about the 15-minute edit rule. Happened to me too. Mitre Square spooky? Not nowadays, sunshine. Too many bloody Ripper groups in there! Your video arrived yet?
PHILIP 
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2875
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Hi Hutch,
If you have been infected by the W32 worm, thank you for not e-mailing me... don't want to catch that with my new XP.
I have been subjected to that crap three times (not through e-mail, though) and each time the only thing to do was to actually completely reformat the hard disk and reinstall Windows. No anti-virus program can fully destroy them, since they usually change their name and identity code as soon as the ant-virus program tries to hit it.
So unless you reformat, I doubt that you will fully get rid of it. You may be lucky, though, but that is what the experts usually recommends that you do.
I can fully understand that sour face of that poor guy in your emoticon.
I have been doing my share for the Tsunami victims, since Swedes in particular were stricken quite hard by this disaster (among the category of foreigners) -- 3500 Swedes were considered lost and most of them are presumed dead.
YES, the video arrived today!!!! Thanks a lot, I have watched nearly all of it and I have enjoyed it tremendously. I'll talk to you later about it.
The part where you're guiding a group at Goulston Street totally cracked me up -- now I see what you mean (I suspect one indeed have to be an actor in order to be able to achieve that, though). 
Hopefully my stuff arrives to you on Wednesday -- just don't expect miracles regarding my English -- I have done my best but I didn't want to invest money and effort on a professional interpreter for this thing.
Oh yes, Mitre Square IS spooky -- at night (and without the tour groups).
But look at the old photos from the 1920s when it still looked as it did in the days of the Ripper. Brrrr....
Now, that place I really look forward to see in Jane's colour renderings.
(P.S. Have you seen the thread containing my paintings on the Pub Thread?)
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 169
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:54 pm: |
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Still catching up, Glenn. It's obviously as late here as it is in your neck of the woods (ie nearly 5am).
You will be pleased to hear it was NOT W32 - that has been confirmed! It was erroneously picked out by a free scan. I have - apparently - no nasties in my PC at all as I have manually removed some tonight under instruction from a guy in the US on a computer problems forum. Nevertheless, having run about 7 or 8 different anti-virus scans today... eBay is still not working. Nothing has changed. I've not been able to check the message boards for anything really. I'll have to do it tomorrow as I'm so tired.
And for all those people who have told me on the boards or by e-mail how cute I was in that old photo with Gilbert & George - thanks for making me feel even worse than I did about how I look now! 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2878
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:24 am: |
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Hutch,
Good news about the removal of the nasties and that is was not a worm (they are terrible).
I have no idea what has happened regarding ebay in your case, though -- I am never there since I seldom have any money anyway and therefore have no idea how it works (all I know is that it's an auction online) or what it should look like, so I can't help you there I am afraid. Wish I could.
No wonder you are tired when it's 5am.
I am up working as usual, though. Deadlines, you know...
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 780
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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Jane,
Sorry it's taken me so long to wander over and say great job. I have been enjoying this thread since it started. Keep up the great work!
Ta!
(Message edited by Ally on January 18, 2005)
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 127
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:50 am: |
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Afternoon All, that's me in police mode.
Thanks for all the posts. Dutfield's yard might not still be quite right, but it will do for the time being, I think it might possibly be even longer than it looks!
I did have a load of thoughts as I was doing it though, which is actually why I started doing the damn things in the first place. I had always visualized the yard as being as I first constructed it. The fact that it was much longer and went in an L shape opens up a whole new can of worms for me at least.
It's making me rethink the whole Swartz assault and murder scenario. I'm not sure what difference it will finally make to how I personally view things, but it's interesting that it might just trigger some new thought that I hadn't come up with before.
I'm going to finish Hanbury Street today and post it tonight or tomorrow.
I promise I will do Mitre Square after Berner Street, just for Glenn. I have one view actually finished I think, I'll dig it out and see if it is usable.
Jane
xxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 128
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
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Hi Glenn again,
I blurred the cobbles temporarily to make the ground more 'generic' because doubt came up as to whether it was mud, paving stones, cobbles or a mixture, so when I find out, I'll put in whichever is correct. I hope it's cobbles, they looked good.
I think Nats is right that the lights in the windows are a bit bright, but because the scene was so dark, I let it ride because otherwise it would have looked totally lifeless and hardly worth bothering with as a picture. Might just as well stick up a sheet of black paper! I'll make sure that I put a note underneath pointing it out for diehards if it's put anywhere else.
I will mail Stephen and tell him he can take any old pics off to save bandwidth. Then you can have some new ones!
Jane
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 129
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
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Hi Philip,
Sorry about your problem, glad it's fixed. We missed you, thought you'd gone off us - you can start teasing me again now.
Thanks for the info on Hanbury Street, as with the other scenes it's opening up whole new vistas in terms of what might have actually happened that night/morning. JtR must have been either the most reckless or the luckiest man alive! I went cold thinking about it!
I hope that the pics might start up a few discussions, because that is the point of them. I know that I always had a slightly skewed perception of the sites, and in some cases a totally wrong one, because of various pics I'd seen in the past. Hanbury Street was a total shock to me! I had always thought it was the double doored version. I'm sure there must be others out there who thought the same. Hopefully little gems dredged up by all of the members will give a more accurate picture.
catch you later
love Jane
xxxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 130
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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last post for now,
Back to loos again, nothing to do with putting the picture together as such, but I suddenly thought, someone suggested that Liz might have gone to the loo in the yard to sort herself out after the assault and was gotten on the way back to the entrance by the murderer.
From the description that Maria kindly put up it reads as if they were opposite the rear entrance of the IWEC, but it's a bit ambiguous. Their location would make quite a bit of difference to the plausibility/possibility of this theory. I can think of lots of other possibilities that hadn't cropped up before. Anyone else got any new thoughts?
Jane
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 174
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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This is an interesting one, Jane, and one I think deserves fuller exploration. That would mean she met three different men in the space of half an hour, 2 of which wished her harm. We have the young chap she was with in the Bricklayer's Arms (seen by PC Smith at about 12:30am if I'm not mistaken), then Mr 'Lipski', then our Jackie. It has always struck me as odd that the assault was at 12:45am and Diemschutz discovered her at 1am when the concensus was she had only just been killed in the last few minutes - was our second man assaulting her for that long if it was indeed only 2 men that were seen their that night?
PHILIP
(Why was everyone recommending I upgrade from Internet Explorer to Mozilla Firefox? I've done it and I don't like it!)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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Hi Philip,
You are right, something doesn't add up somewhere. I've read most of the theories, that the man who assaulted her was the murderer, that the pipeman was the murderer or accomplice, that Kidney killed in in a fit of jealous rage, or that JtR was none or any of the above and did it, but none of it really makes much sense. This is one of the main reasons I wanted to re evaluate the crime scenes, to see what they threw up.
The new pics that everyone has kindly posted to help with the reconstructions might have some new information in them, or at least prompt new thoughts.
Dare I say there might be some newbies out there who didn't get a chance to discuss it before who might like to add some thoughts.
I know that the Back to Basics threads have been quite active. I'm sure they will get to Elizabeth in due course, so maybe I'll nip over there and see what's being said.
Willing to get bashed about the head for this one, but if you don't want to join in, there are plenty of other threads!
All the best Jane,
ducking under the desk as she types!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2883
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
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Jane, Hutch,
This really belongs to a Stride thread, but my personal opinion is that the most likely scenario is that Mr Broad Shoulders was the one who actually killed Stride. I find it rather unlikely for her to encounter two or three men in the period of fifteen minutes or less (at least two of them violent).
Nothing can be ruled out, of course, but with that kind of pedestrian traffic, Mrs Maxwell or any other witness should have seen at least one of them. The problem would be less complex if we accept that Schwartz may have been mistaken about the time -- let's say five or ten minutes (which I feel is the most probable explanation).
Of course, it is not impossible that the rowdy incident with Mr BS could have attracted another person (for example the Ripper) -- stranger things have happened -- but in my opinion that feels like stretching things a bit in speculation. I personally think the solution is simpler than that. My personal bet is that Mr BS killed her, that the killer was not interrupted, that Schwartz may have gotten the time wrong with about five to ten minutes and that her killer was not the Ripper. Still, all we can do is speculate.
Jane,
OK, I see. I would be cautious with the Photoshop blur tool in general, though -- it can easily overdo things and create an artificial effect that is not pleasant. The blurring seldom turns out natural.
So, if I may suggest... draw in some water puddles or pools (which I think might be a good suggestion) but I'll look forward to when you restore the cobbles to its former realistic state when you can (I know it's temporary, but I can't help it; I am allergic to the blur tool).
I totally agree on your views upon the illumination in the windows. It is probably true that it is a bit too bright for gas light, but the picture would indeed be more flat and lifeless without this effect. If you want to tone it down, you can paint back the window section details -- it might help a bit -- but otherwise I think the new illumination makes wonders for the atmosphere and is more accurate in sense of lighting than the previous version.
P.S. I must say that I am impressed by your acrobatic abilities; being able to duck under the desk while you type at the same time...
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 18, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 132
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
|
HI Glenn,
Thanks, I promise I will stick a plaster over the blur tool and refrain from using it for the forseeable future. I think I might agree with the Liz scenario, seems more likely than anything else, but always open to new offers!
I will put the window frames back in, that will probably do the trick and look good anyway.
Two heads are better than one, especially when one is Swedish!
Hanbury Street is going well, should have it up soon, but want to get it just right.
love Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2885
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
|
Looking forward to it, Jane.
Keep up the extremely good work!
I haven't followed that debate too closely, but I cincerely hope the assumptions regarding one door on Hanbury Street 29 instead of two is correct -- it is complete news to me, but I trust those with local knowledge who believes this might be the case.
Once again, keep up the great work -- it is always the highlight of the day when your pictures arrive. I haven't had this fun in along time.
Regarding Mitre Square... apart from police sketches and so on, you know that there exists a lot of b&w photos from the 1920s?
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 182
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
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And needless to say I have plenty of them tucked away in one way or another if you want me to send them all to you by e-mail, Jane.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2887
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
|
Why am I not surprised, Hutch?
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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HI Glenn and Hutch,
Here is Hanbury Street. I blooming well hope it was only one door, otherwise Thames here I come large stones at the ready!
They're a bit rough, but I'm loathe to do too much on them until I get the go ahead, as it would be a waste of time, so excuse ragged edges.
I didn't use the blur tool but the reference pics I have are very low resolution, which means I can't always see much detail on them. No reflection on the 1967 pictures, they are great, but most of the details I had to actually make up as I didn't have any reference at all.
I made the frontage wood and not brick as I remember visiting an old aunt in a house of this period and the front was more or less as it is in the picture. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will point it out, but I quite like the wood.
I know one picture is a bit dark and one a bit light, but the light at the time of the actual murder is really boring as a light source, so I cheated a bit.
Here they are then, break it to be gently......
 |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
There they are, they look a bit different once they are downloaded, I never know what they are going to turn out like.
I did actually mean break it to ME gently, but I do have sherry in my hand! Only one glass a day I promise, just to get me to sleep!
Hi Philip, I would love any references of Mitre Square, but I have to do Berner Street next so maybe later you would be a darling?
I notice your'e not Assistant Commissioner yet, you're slipping. I hope you're not sleeping or anything silly like that!
Catch you later,
big hugs,
Jane
xxxx
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2890
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
I am not all that familiar with the details of the actual buildings -- I leave that up to the local historians on this site --
but from where I sit I think it looks very good.
Beautiful pictures as usual.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2891
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
|
Note:
Correction regarding my post above commenting the Stride scenario... the sentence "but with that kind of pedestrian traffic, Mrs Maxwell or any other witness should have seen at least one of them" should naturally say Mrs Mortimer.
Besides numbers, names are unfortunately not my strongest side when I don't have the information in front of me.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
|
Hi Jane,
I was fascinated to see these two.They are wonderfully realistic again and beautifully interpreted.I think this is very close to how 29 Hanbury Street would have looked on that day in September at 5.30am 1888.One thought struck me-would the house next door have been white? I ask because I too began a painting[in oils]of the Houses and little scene which Mrs Long witnessed. You and Suzi inspired me last weekend and Rob"s drawings took me by surprise enlarged like that.I have to wait until the paint dries
but should have it ready this weekend or next.
Anyway I had a lot of trouble trying to decide whether to "bleach out" the houses either side or-wait for this -whether to"whiten" them!So I can see the artistic need you had to take some licence here!
Anyway,now I can just take a walk round 29 Hanbury Street circa 1888 and do a sketch of it all "in the flesh"!
Brilliant Jane,as usual!
Natsxxx
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George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 186
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:53 pm: |
|
Jane - this is fab. A really nice job, but would you ever do anything else? I have an idea about getting you really decent quality shots of some of the places. Leave it with me.
Still having problems with my PC but I have finally downloaded a Firewall (never realised I didn't have one!) and it is stopping all the Adware and SpyBots (this is only relevant as you mention the fact that I might be sleeping - I was up until 5:30am last night trying to sort it all).
If I'm not making you feel inferior enough, Jane - I got over 90000 on my first trivia quiz on the Games & diversions page, which put me 5th on the list. 
Oh, the possibilities are endless. I see an entire glossy book coming out with this artwork - just your images alone and a little text. Groovy.
Glenn : Have a nice cup of cocoa (or earn your lodging money three times today and spend it all on gin).
PHILIP (in admiration)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2894
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
|
Hutch:
Cocoa is OK, but I would never spend my doss money on Gin -- I hate the stuff and maybe I can use it to clean my brushes -- but cognac... now, then we're talking business ... 
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
P.S. When I had Windows 98 I never had either a firewall or anti-virus program (and therefore was open to all kinds of attacks), simply because my old computer couldn't handle them -- they were too heavy.
Today, with XP and a new computer, I am only using the anti-virus program but I have disabled the firewall; it is just to complex to manage and it blocks all the things I want, regardless of which settings I enable.
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 495
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:13 pm: |
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Look out Glenn. We just got a spyware detector for ours and it found a trojan horse that was capable of recording keystrokes and taking screen shots. We were advised to change all our credit cards and bank accounts and boy, was it fun to do that! Antivirus programs don't catch spyware.
Jane, when you do Miller's Court could you put Diddles in, peering around a corner? Cats can have an air of mystery about them that can add to the ambiance.
Hanbury is great! Are you going to do the yard? The passageway?
The greatest thing about your drawings in my opinion is that they are forcing us to think in a much more disciplined way about the topography of the crime scenes. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2899
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
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Diana,
"Look out Glenn. We just got a spyware detector for ours and it found a trojan horse that was capable of recording keystrokes and taking screen shots. We were advised to change all our credit cards and bank accounts and boy, was it fun to do that! Antivirus programs don't catch spyware."
I know. Tell me all about it. But neither does the firewall, in my experience, if you want to be able to use Internet without problems. I have tried several times to use the firewall but it makes it impossible to use certain websites, and especially the one from my bank, which becomes totally unusable. Firewalls do more than they are supposed to, that is their problem, and if you want to avoid that you'll have to disable so many functions that it is no longer a protection anyway. At least in my experience. Those who constructed Norton's firewall must have meant it as a practical joke.
Or else it's just me who can't handle the settings...
"Jane, when you do Miller's Court could you put Diddles in, peering around a corner? Cats can have an air of mystery about them that can add to the ambiance.
Hanbury is great! Are you going to do the yard? The passageway?"
But she has already done Miller's Court (in several versions) and the Hanbury Street yard. Look back in earlier posts -- the yard was the first post of all.
(It was a great idea to put in Diddles, though).
I believe Berner Street or Mitre Square is next. She hasn't done the indoors passageway in Hanbury Street, though. But do we really know what that looked like?
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2900
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 12:58 am: |
|
Sorry about being off thread here.
But as a XP newcomer I just discovered (ha! after several weeks!) that my Windows includes a firewall as well (so I can scrap Norton's). I have no idea how effective it is, though. And if my bank program goes bezerk even with this one, it appears to be much easier to make exceptions for certain programs from a list. I better try this.
All the best
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 7:46 am: |
|
On the Stride killing (and I too acknowledge that this is not the right thread really), common sense suggests that some of the detail provided by Scwartz cannot be right. Timing is the most obvious area for error.
If Stride were attacked twice in such a short space of time, then again (to me) common sense/logic suggests the two attacks must be connected - one a response to the other, or a reaction to it.
More likely, one man attacked her twice, or there was only one attack (mis-understood, or mis-reported in some way).
I also do not believe that Jack would have attacked a woman who had already been assaulted, or one already "downed". Not his style at all, IMHO.
Do we think that, if he had come across Tabram's body he would have caused further mutilations just because she was at hand? Not at all, is my view. I think the prelude to the killing was part of the thrill for him.
Not evidence of course, but all part of the reasons why I do not count Stride as a Ripper victim.
Phil |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 135
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:04 am: |
|
Good, I can get my posts up answering some of your questions, not going to stay a Detective Sergeant all my life (nearly typed Defective Sergeant, which is probably nearer the truth!)
HI Nats,
Funny you should mention the white house next door, just found a pic in Colin Wilson and Robin Odell's book of Hanbury Street which I'm going to post in a minute, so maybe I need to have a rethink on this one. I was using another sketch that looks quite different for the house on the left. I think this new one is perhaps more accurate, see what others think. Might help you decide.
Can't wait to see you work, I really love it, I can't wait until next weekend, can't you put it in a through draft or something?
Here's the pic
Jane
xxxxxx
 |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 136
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:19 am: |
|
Hi Glenn and Philip,
I've got a Mac, so thankfully I don't get viruses, but I can pass them onto others if someone sends me an attachment from a PC and I send it to another PC. I'm always very careful. I don't want to be accused of being a Typhoid Mary! I bet some blighter out there is writing a virus for a Mac as we speak!
I am going to put Diddles in one of the shots of Miller's Court, but not with a knife in his mouth, might be a bit obvious! I might stick him on a window sill, completely oblivious to the horror going on around him. That would actually be quite scary in a funny sort of way.
I'd be interested on your comments on the picture I've just posted, the drawing on the left - the one of the backyard. Totally puzzled by this one.
No way can that fence be accurate, because it must have been at least six feet high and solid as in the photos. That one looks like something from Peter Rabbit, but the added features over the door and cellar window really do give me problems. Why on earth would an artist put those features there is they weren't? It would just be extra work for nothing. Any thoughts on it? If it is accurate apart from the fence it would make a good pic, but I really am stumped.
I'm just having a look at some drawings and pics of Berner Street, thankfully a bit easier than Dutfield's Yard.
Catch you later
Lots of love
Jane
xxxxxxx
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 137
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
|
Hi Diana,
Thanks for your comments, especially the cat idea, I think it will work well. I would like to do something very tight and claustrophic on the passage itself, but might have to think about that one a bit. it could be really scary! Watch this space! Anyone got a time machine, so that I can have a 48 hour day!
love Jane
xxxxxxxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2903
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
|
Hi Jane,
Diddles sitting in Miller's Court seems like a great idea. (Good idea, Diana! Indeed!) Can't wait to see that. We love cats -- with or without a dissection knife in the mouth.
Regarding the drawing, I don't know... I am no expert on the local buildings, so Hutch or Rob C could probably answer this better... but I doubt that it is accurate. Still, I am not prepared to swear on it. Wish I could help you there. I suggest you leave the Hanbury Street yard as it is. That is still one of your best works.
Looking forward to see Berner Street, Jane.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 193
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 9:58 am: |
|
Jane - a possible explanation for you.
The drawings above look to me like they are culled from the wonderful Harold Furness FAMOUS CRIMES series from 1903.
We know in 1888 the fence was 5'5" or 5'6" tall as it obviously prevented Albert Cadosch (spellings open to debate!) from seeing what was going on.
In regards to the extra doorway - I have no reason to personally doubt this.
Didn't Richardson run her packing-case business from the cellar? The later pictures (can we source the famous backyard shot with the black frame around it?) show it covered up by boards (a short clip, I think, in THE LONDON NOBODY KNOWS - literally a couple of seconds - has a shot from the cellar through a hole in the boards of the dog sniffing around, but I stand to be corrected from Rob C!).
I have checked my William Stewart from 1938. Unfortunately he has made do with a model for the backyard of 29 (odd - I don't understand why he didn't photograph this one unless he wasn't allowed in, as he uses photos for Bucks Row & Mitre Square) and though the cellar door is clearly there, it doesn't have a porch on it - but I don't know if that is from reports or how it looked by 1938. As I say, if it did look like that in 1938 and he KNEW, then why didn't he photograph it? I'm pretty sure that Stewart Evans didn't take that picture as he never got to see the backyard in 1967 because the door was locked.
I would suggest the porch to the cellar probably WAS there in 1888 (unless someone knows for sure it wasn't!) or otherwise it was there for Furness's illustrator to sketch it in 1903 in the intervening years. We can be quite sure that the fence in 1888 was not the one in Furnesses sketch.
Off thread for a moment : PC problems probably sorted - I have got rid of Mozilla (it was horrible) and thanks to Glenn have restored my lovely and much maligned Internet Explorer.
I have found a web page that made me believe my eBay access at night was being hijacked as I have been finding some nasty names at the bottom of my screen (include.ebaystatic.com, though at the top it always said ebay.co.uk). This page gave masses of security updates I have installed and it is hopeful that tonight I will get my eBay back to usual.
Hope this was of use (the first bit!)
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
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