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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:03 am: | 
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Morning all, or afternoon or evening or middle of the night,
Just got up, had a really bad night, feeling very floopy. It was shovelling all that horse muck in Dutfield's yard! I got the giggles in the middle of the night, because I was certain some bright spark would post up a picture of horse poo as reference for me.... don't even think it!
Very interesting about the shop front in Hanbury Street, I wonder how many other people thought the same? I certainly always did, because the frontage in that photo does look right for the period, must have been done quite soon after the time I think. Maybe, they wanted a face lift after the events to try and clear away the ghosts! Be interesting to find out when they put the new window in and why? Philip's got a new bit of patter for his tour anyway, he must get fed up saying the same thing over and over again.
Thank you dear Robert Clack for those gems.You get a truly big hug for those, watch this space for a new frontage courtesy of those pics.
Back to work.
love
Jane
xxxxxxxx
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
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Bit of useless information to get me up to 100 posts.
WARNING If you are vegetarian or have a weak stomach don't read this because it's about cat's meat shops!
The cat's meat sign in the window was interesting in that pic. Usually cat's meat shops did not just sell cat''s meat, they also sold all kinds of offall. There was still one at Dalston in the 50's and early 60's.
Offall shops sold all the stuff that butcher's didn't know what else to do with, tripe and cowheel was a favourite dish, the tripe is cow's stomach lining and the cow heel simply that. When it's boiled it jellifies and it was a common staple in Annie's day, obviously very cheap indeed. Pig's trotter's were a variation,
They also sold brains, hearts, kidney, liver, tongue etc., from any animal, horsemeat and there were always steaming skinned sheep's heads in the window.
The cat's meat itself was anything that even the poorest human's didn't want to eat, including 'lights' lungs. I did post this next bit on the Spitalfields Nipper's thread, but just in case, anyone is wondering why they kept cat's when they couldn't feed themselves, They were ratters.
I don't know if 29 Hanbury Street only sold cat's meat, but it was more common to sell a more extensive range of gourmet delights!
Now you've all thrown up in the corner, I'll leave you in peace.
lots of love to all you green people
Jane
xxxxxxx
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:32 am: |
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Hi Lindsey,
You're right about the size of the bath I think, it was probably for washing clothes or to wash down in, although, you would be amazed at how small those tin baths could be and how much you could squeeze into one!
I will put it in in the day time shots and make sure it's the right kind exactly.
Jane
xxxxxx |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3903
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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Hi Jane
We had a tin bath at one time. It had a handle each end. Even though we had a bathroom, I can just about remember being washed in the tin bath. No idea why. Unless my mother thought that way I'd be in front of the fire?
Can you explain about the cats' meat? I understand about the cats being ratters, but then, why the need for the cats' meat? Surely there were enough rats?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:56 am: |
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Hi Jane,
hope you are feeling better-I remember those shops from going along a main road in Birkenhead ,on Merseyside ,around the same time as you are talking about.In fact in some parts of that very same road there are still shops that look as though they sell offal for pets . My
Nan bought "catfish" from a Greengrocers/cum fresh fish shop it looked like fresh sardines.That shop looks exactly like it did then in the 50"s!But its fascinating hearing your stories Jane,they really bring the place to life and especially running alongside such realistic visuals of Whitechapel in 1888!
Natalie
Interestingly I remember the same laundering facilities as you speak of,although the one I remember was a big commercial company.But Nan and Mum used to bundle up sheets, towels etc into a pillowcase and give it to the "man with the van".
They had a ticket[similar to today] which they kept for when he returned it. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 145
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:04 am: |
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You know what I think, Robert? I might be wrong, as I wasn't there.
I reckon calling it a cats' meat shop was just a cover. Seriously. I reckon the majority of the meat was knowingly provided for the poor but pride might have prevented people from openly admitting that Dobbin was going in the old tum rather than in the old Tom!
My dad was brought up in Islington in the 1950s and he remembers some local families eating dog food as they couldn't afford meat.
Jane - pictures of horse pooh. Mmm. Remember that horse pooh in 1888 would have looked very different to how it does today. Due to Victorian morals, they would always have been covered in stout hessian to prevent viewing by ladies of a weak constitution. I believe it was the responsibility of the horse itself to do this. One of the things Queen Victoria ordered after she went a bit mad.
By the way, Jane, you may want to look at my own thread of reconstructions in PUB TALK. I've done a fairly good job of MJK and Diddles.
Dutfields Yard I have to bow out of; I know very little about it, and I think that's due to having so few images of it. I look forward to what you do with it. I reckon you will have to repost Hanbury Street, though, now we have both the banner and the single door to see anew.
I think you can edit your own postings and take the old images off if you think we are having too much of the same image, y'know.
Only been on here a week and I think I shall make Inspector before the end of the day! How cool is that?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 102
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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Philip, if you make Inspector by the end of the day, I am still not making you tea. Delusions of grandeur or what! (love yer really)
Good point about the cat's meat though, unfortunately a lot of it would have ended up in people's tums, and probably a lot in pies etc., minced up. My Mum actually used to feed me brains, I nearly threw up when she told me!
That's why shops like that sold more than just cat's meat as a rule, because they would not have had enough trade otherwise.
The cat's, although ratter's still needed to supplement their diets, because without some incentive to stay around the house, they would go elsewhere to better hunting grounds if they couldn't get a kill for a few days. They would be fed scraps from the table and the cat's meat to keep them domesticated. If you look at the Spitalfields Nipper's pictures you'll see that the cat's were still loved by their owners. Diddles is proof of that, how could you not love a cat called Diddles!
Philip, your mini treatise on horse pooh had me in fits. Thanks for making me laugh, it's better than any medicine!
Dutfield's Yard is going great. Might have one view up by the end of the day, working at a snails pace today I'm afraid.
lots of love
Jane
xxxx
There were horror stories of babies being eaten by rats in the tenements. Unfortunately, probably true. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3904
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
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Thanks folks. Well, as an antidote to the rats/babies thing : Spike Milligan once did a Pied Piper joke. He danced along the street playing his pipe, watched by the townsfolk leaning out of their windows...when all of a sudden their wigs flew off their heads and danced along behind the piper, leaving them startled and bald.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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......and Diddles tagged along behind going fish! Fish diddle deedee.............! |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 273
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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Hi Jane and all,
would it be possible to do a reconstruction of Berner street on the night of the murder? FRom Fairclough or commercial rd...doesnt matter. I thought that would just give a little more insite into what it really looked like. If that is possible. Also, could it be possible to reconstruct the church passage sighting with Eddowes and her killer as seen by the 3 Jews leaving the club? That would be interesting. Just wondering.
Paul
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 147
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
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Hi Paul - taking Jane's comments away from her here, but I don't think she'd mind.
Dutfield's Yard is the one Jane is dealing with right now. I would imagine it would only be a small step to then cover Berner Street. I suspect this will be an easier task for her anyway as we have the wonderful 'cartwheel' image, and this can't be from too much later, of course, because it all came down 20 years afterwards. I guess Jane will do that one in the way she has done the Hanbury Street one, and overlay and manipulate the surviving image itself.
Hmm... Church Passage... that would be interesting. The only image I know of it is the one that Stewart Evans took (I think it was him), and that would be in 1967. Anyone know, out of interest, if any sketches were made of Church Passage at the time?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Dutfields Yard and Liz Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a tad tedious I feel BUT The Church passage image is one I'd like to see! Am up to my eyeballs here with the things for the book thats driving me nuts!
Suzi x |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1454
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
those two contemporary images of 29 Hanbury Street
are superb!In fact I was so thrilled to see these houses which are so clearly built at the same time as the Fournier Street ones for the Spitalfields silk weavers that I was inspired myself to do an oil painting of it! I had often looked for such a picture and never came across one until today.
Many Thanks
Natsx |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 153
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Whilst mentioning Fournier Street - just an idea. I have (at my parents' place right now) the 1980 film THE WORLD OF GILBERT AND GEORGE. Gilbert & George, as many of you will know, have lived at 12 Fournier Street since the late 60s and a lot of the footage in this film was shot in and around Fournier Street so next time I go and see them, I shall dig out my signed copy (ha!) and give it a look.
I met them a few years ago. Photo uploaded if requested, but you probably won't want to.
The question of the Hanbury Street door is an interesting one. It must have indeed been a big one with a huge frame around it, then a wall must have been inserted inside to split the shop from the rest of the house. The Kobi Nazrul Centre across the street from where 29 was has this 2-door feature. I wonder if we could get the House Detectives in to work it out?
INSPECTOR PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 106
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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HI All.
First of all Paul, I am doing all of the crime scenes from all angles known to man and a few that haven't been invented yet. You will get Berner Street reasonably quickly, thanks to a new technique I stumbled onto.
I would like to know where the street lights might have been, very important. If anyone would be kind enough to just scribble on the cartwheel picture that would be fine. I want to do one of Swartz and the whole pipeman/Liz assault/ fiasco at some point and will need lighting. I thought it might be useful because I can never quite work out what was going on.
I'm really worried about putting the Dutfield Yard's pictures up, because I know I've got things wrong, but I know you'll be gentle with me.
Here is a rough one of Dutfield's Yard in daylight, just to make sure I've got it right before I do too much on it.
The nighttime one I am really nervous of, because I know the lighting has to be exactly right. I've had to compromise a bit, because otherwise it woud be like a black cat in a coal cellar and you wouldn't be able to see anything. See what you think.
I've got a way through the Hanbury Sftreet front as it should have been. Looks much better.
So here goes..... crash helmet at the ready!
I've just seen the preview and the night one has come up a bit light again, but you can use your imagination a bit and squint. It's also a bit yellow, I'm going to moonlight it a bit more, I'll wait and see if anyone else is kind enough to come up with anything that needs correcting and do it all at once. These are just provisionals really.
Jane
xxxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Sorry, one more thing
Does anyone know what W Hindley's first name was? Was it Walter? I'll need it for the front view.
I nearly had kittens bending that type and then putting it in perspective, what a stinker!
Congratulations Philip, you deserve it! But I'm still not making your blooming tea!
love Jane
xxxxxx |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
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Oh WOW!
Oh WOW!
OH WOW!
Totally superb, Jane. From what you had to work with this is miraculous. I love both of them. Stunning!
I can't say anything's wrong as I don't know!
By the way - if you are doing the assault on Liz do you have any sketches of Schwartz?
Is there anything you can't do (except draw like me)?
PHILIP
x
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1456
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Oh Yes!!!Lovely Jane ---once more you feel as though you could just walk right in there.One question,would the neat and clear sign writing on the big gates have been so fresh looking-any idea how long Arthur Hindley was there?Brilliant though that lettering Jane.It really looks to me to be otherwise very near the mark
Congrats.
Nataliexxx
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
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Philip.re the door in Hanbury Street.I dont think it is as big as it looks in the first drawing.If you look at the door in the second drawing you can see that its the wooden posts alongside that give the "impression" of it being some kind of alteration.Looking at photographs of the Fournier Street houses and some others nearby it looks like a panelled door with vertical decorative panels alongside.Not of the carved leaf and flower type but just a wooden panel carved to look a bit like a pillar.There are numbers of them like it around there.
Yes,I knew about Gilbert and George.Don"t you envy them that wonderful house!I would love to see this photo you have when you get the chance.
Best
Natsx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 110
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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HI Nats,
You are totally right about the lettering, I'll scuff it up a bit. I was so sick of it by the time I got in on, I couldn't bear looking at it anymore. I'll be okay tomorrow. I'll kick it a few times and feel better.
I'll stick a provisional Hanbury Street pic up tomorrow, which might not be quite right, but at least with the right frontage! Perhaps it's my imagination, but the door to the yard looks the same in the drawing as it is in the 1967 pic, do you think they left that door and just put a new shop front and got rid of the other door?
Be nice if it was the same door, I hate change don't you. The politicians of the 60's and 70's have got a lot to answer for. At least in Spitalfield's now they are preserving the frontage and building at the back. Good on 'em!
Definitely bed now, catch you tomorrow. I was really peed off when I got up today, but you lot have made me feel so much better and I've had a good laugh at some of your nonesense. Please keep it up, you're better than HRT!
Jane
xxx |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 156
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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Hi Nats.
I wasn't referring to the pictures here being relevant. I'm wondering how much they would have to knock through and build up to turn what was one doorway into two - I'm presuming they enlarged the same aperture to make the 2nd door, rather than just stick a new door in the shop? Does that mean that the shop was accessed in 1888 through a second door on the right as soon as you entered the passage?
There - proof (as if you NEEDED any more!) that I am an artist!
This is me in The Market Cafe (RIP - next to The Ten Bells) 8 years ago with the great men.
PHILIP
PS : I feel guilty about putting this up right now seeing what Jane's just managed to do! Where's the horse pooh, Jane? 
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Hi Jane,yes,thats exactly what I worked out today and I checked it out against about 10 photos of doors that I have.The original stayed with its panelled feature and the big shop fron took out the lovely shutters etc.But that must have been about twenty years later.I think you would actually see quite a bit of the Spitalfields and Whitechapel you remember.Parts of Spitalfields in particular are very elegant with these beautiful
Silk weavers houses all spruced up but with their original features intact.
Perhaps it might be an idea to scruff the lettering slightly but dont spoil the picture because I love both the day and night one and your illumination which is always so brilliantly done really do light the whole thing up and in the case of the lettering part of your illumination is there!
Take Care and Night, Night and again thanks for these thrilling pieces!
Natsxxx
Philip,
What a great picture!Oh you must be proud of that!
They are terrific,the pair of them---I always enjoy their work,its so original and subversive in a quirky sort of way.
Fabulous and Thanks!
Natsxxx
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3906
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Jane, loved the yard. The broken window was a nice touch. But is that another gleaming letterbox in the right-hand gate?
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 159
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Pants - I just put up a long message and it got wiped.
Robert : That is no letterbox. It is a catflap for the evil Diddles (see elsewhere in Pub Talk for evidence of his malefactions - hey Suzi! Malefactions AND moribund on the same day!). If this continues I shall have to have a special T-shirt printed for Brighton.
Nats : I have an enlargement of the same shot on my wall, which they signed for me when I met them again 2 years later! Not only did I have my photo taken with them, but they took one with their own camera. I've been a Gilbert & George model - but I kept my clothes on! 
In regards to Jane's desire (and let's be honest, Jane, you DO desire it) for excrement in her picture of Dutfield's Yard, perhaps Gilbert & George could be prevailed upon to provide the images? 
So, does this mean the Hanbury Street shop entrance in 1888 would have been a door inside and on the wall to the right of the entrance or not? Come on, Mr Clack - you know these things!
Just had a thought - is the photo above Gilbert and 2 George's?   
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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Hello Jane....extraordinary visual of dutfields yard. Its amazing. I always hd it in my headwhat it looked like....and it is very similiar. I do believe that the club was 3 stories though....not that it makes any difference....maybe the 3rd floor just cant be seen from this perspective.
There are also 4 lamps on berner street from Fairclough to commercial. One is on the corner of Fairclough and Berner, the other is surely close to commercial rd. I guess the other is probably near sander street...the other....probably in between. I hope that helps. Great work as always
Paul
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2852
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
Brilliant! Extraordinary work as usual. Why the crash helmet?
If I'd be allowed to be a bit of a bugger here, though (which makes me feel awful, especially as I don't know if I am right or not)... my only concern is that the yard passage doesen't look long or deep enough, compared to the map posted by Robert Clack on January 13 -- even if we consider the effect of the perspective.
What makes my head really spin, is that the large wooden building with the stairs drawn by Harold Furness doesen't seem to fit in anywhere on the map, and if it was in the far end of the yard, it ought to be moved quite a bit further back into the picture.
As can be seen both on the map and the sketches, the wooden structure was futher back in the yard (not quite that far up in the passage) and that there was quite a lot of space in the yard, opening up after the row of building ends on the right side.
In your picture the yard seems to have disappeared and the wooden building with the stairs seems to fill up the passage and have been moved forward (towards us), while it in my mind should be moved further back in the yard itself. And therefore the passage doesen't look deep and narrow enough and the wooden building too big and to close to us as viewers.
Even on the sketches, the wooden building seems to be further back (I actually think the length of the stairs is the biggest problem). But since the location of the wooden building is hard to figure out from the map, this is a tough one. We also don't know how accurate the sketches are.
May be that I am completely in error here, and if that's the case, my deepest apologies. Since my knowledge of the layout of this place is limited, to say the least, I am only comparing to what we see on the map and the illustrations. If I am wrong, I'll buy everyone a return ticket to Sweden so that they in turn can give me what I deserve  .
Otherwise, great stuff and I love the wooden gates and the lettering. Very convincing.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 16, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2854
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Let me add -- just for clarification -- that there is absolutely nothing inaccurate about the row of buildings on both side of the passage. Those are incredibly well done, their length seems accurate and the perspective is great.
The problem lies in the wooden building in the far end, which appear to be too close and press itself towards us.I would probably decrease the wooden structure building a little bit in size in order achive an impression of a longer distance, but -- be that as it may -- the main problem seems to lie in the stairs (which are too long and should't intrude on the passage space).
Regarding the night picture: if I were you, I would leave the surrounding area around the windows dark, so that the contrasts between the house wall facade and the lit windows becomes stronger. As far as I know, the area around windows is seldom lit up from the light inside, and in this case there is not that much light from outside that would light up the facade anyway. So just a pointer... it would add to the atmosphere.
Hope I am not coming out as a picky son of a b*tch here. You're doing an amazing job, Jane.
I'm only saying this because I know you want comments for correction and that you are careful about accuracy. Absolutely no need for a crash helmet, though -- at least not on your part...Well, take it or leave it, just some suggestions.
P.S. Jane, I just love the cobble stones! Great realism and authenticy.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 16, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2855
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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Inspector Philip Hutch,
Congratulations to your promotion, mister.
I will hereby increase your work load and expand your responsibilities in case something goes wrong. Each time an inspector is appointed, I get another person to blame for the department's (i.e. my) mistakes, which is brilliant.
Keep up the good work.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 275
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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Hey Glenn, Jane, Phil...
How are ya'll? The Photos are getting intresting arent they?
I do agree with Glenn on a few points....I do think the stairs need to be moved to the side or something. I think the dimensions of the gates were 9 feet 2 in. How far the yard goes back....
I'll have to do some digging.
Heres some food for thought though(and we are totally not trying to be critical) your pics are outstanding!!!!!!!, but... According to Blackwells assistant Johnson... the body was 20ft from the kitchen door. For whatever thats worth. What would really be cool is if you could throw in a slight drizzle, just for effect...even thought I dont think it was raining at the time. Peace
Paul
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2857
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:51 am: |
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Hi Paul!
Buddy, how are ya?
"I do think the stairs need to be moved to the side or something."
Nah, I'd say the stairs needs to be shortened and maybe minimized so that they along with the background buildings appear to be further back. Compare with the sketches. I believe the stairs shouldn't peek out in front of the row of buildings in the passage but should end behind or in line with them.
Just my view, though, but I think that is all it takes, really, to correct the impression of the passage and yard.
I don't think the wooden building in itself needs to be changed, though (I personally would probably also decrease the size of the building as well very slightly, just a little bit -- I dont think i'ts absolutely crucial, though).
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 17, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 278
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:10 am: |
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Hey Glenn,
Goodpoint, but I think the yard is a little to wide.....If we are to go by the official survey....the walls were 9 ft 2 apart. Thats pretty narrow. I think it looks good like it is though. I cant believe someone is actually attempting this and having a fairly successful go at it. It incredible! In my mind....as well as yours probably, we have a mental picture of what it is were reading about due to the way its described. THats' part of the mystique of the Ripper. We are drawn to the dark alleys, the tall hats, the long dresses, the horses and cabs, the industry, the poverty, the whores and their pathetic lives, the jews, the lantern toting constables who walked the same beat for 10 hours a night, The nasty street, the run down tenements, the illiterate children as well as the parents, the FOG, and the gruesome slayings of a few hookers that should have been forgotten many many years ago.
BUT WHY ARE WE OBSESSED WITH THIS????? FOr me, its entertaining. Thats the only reason I have.
Paul
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2858
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:27 am: |
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Paul,
I agree.
I think the wooden building and its connecting stairs adds to this feeling, but my first impression was also that the yard was a bit too wide, so I suspect that could be the case as well and you confirmed it. Good point.
All the best
G. Andersson, author and picky bugger
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 17, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2860
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:30 am: |
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Please, Jane.
Don't let any of the above discourage you.
Your work is great, and I must say you have chosen to tackle subjects and problems that I would never dare to do myself -- and in the case of Dutfield's Yard we are terribly short of sufficient information that we can trust to 100%.
Just thought I'd let you know. I envy you your guts, curiousity and your talents.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
|
Paul,
Firstly Glenn and yourself were not clear. You both stated the site and NOT the message boards. This issue was sorted out when Glenn left a clarification post.
Secondly, no I didn’t mean that phrase the way that you took it. I apologise. We are very cool.
As for the message boards I find it poor form (indeed tactless) to criticise as lax content the work, thoughts and efforts of people who feel they want to contribute. Not wanting to take part in a certain thread is your choice and one that I also execute at times. However to state that the message boards are not ‘fresh’ whilst doing nothing to assist this is quite simply not on in my opinion. Not on at all.
So I’ll state that….and if you feel my words are uneccessary then so be it.
And Im cool with that.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2861
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:07 am: |
|
Monty,
At least you changed back to your ordinary smiley again...
Now, can we drop that issue?
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 17, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:16 am: |
|
Monty,
The only thing I meant was that the hot topics right now are very repetitive. Just like you were saying about the newbies that come in and discuss things that have been discussed several times....Newbies are good though. We were once newbies. I guess Glenn and I were saying that
the only formidable topics are some of the ones that we dont care to join in on...and thats our choice. But that doesnt mean that it is not worth discussing and holds a great deal of importance. But if you notice, its the same people discussing the same topics everyday....and thats fine for them. I guess what Glenn and I meant is that we need something new to peak our interest, and Jane and Phillips thread has done that.
Anyway, Its all good now....lets be cool and move on. Have you seen Janes pic of Elizabeth Stride? It knocked me out of my chair. Take care.
Paul
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:59 am: |
|
Paul and Glenn,
Chaps, I agree to move on....with no animosity and a lot of respect.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 112
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
|
U
I've not going to do all of this in one post, because it will be longer than 'The Stand', also I have to catch Phil up as Inspector because he keeps bullying me! (he's going to get his own back for that!)
Thanks for the comments on the Yard, right pain in the bum it was. But I can see where to go with it now. Got to get it right!
I think, if we do what some have suggested and move back the wooden structure, it will solve most of the problems, it will give the illusion of the yard being narrower because it will give a deeper perspective. I did actually draw over the top of the illustrations in my defense, so they got it wrong as well! Maybe they wanted to get away from the smell of all that horse muck!
I'll post the revised one up reasonably quickly, it's actually a very easy job.
Thanks for the input. You don't ever have to worry about even the smallest details being dredged up. If I don't think it's right I'll just leave it and not say anything! Working for museums and galleries you get used to changing things about a million times before they think it's right. I am so used to changing things!
Jane
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 113
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:46 am: |
|
I didn't put the U at the beginning of the last post I promise, it was the cat! I wouldn't call you lot U never, never......
Good day, INSPECTOR HUTCH SIR - really great pic, you were such a little cutey then, I envy you having that photo - nice one! You shouldn't feel guilty, you helped me to do the damned thing in the first place! You're my mate.
Hi Nats, The door thing really puzzled me and I am going to have to go back to the inquest statements and read them all through again now with the new door/passage thing in mind. It's totally different to how I viewed it.
The same thought occurred to me in the middle of the night - How did they get into the cat's meat shop? There must have been a door inside the passage that went into it. That opened up a whole new bag of thoughts for me, I always thought it was a blank wall.
I bet that passage must have stunk!
As to what they did to change it, I think they put the equivalent of an RSJ (whatever they had then) in because that's a supporting wall.The passage door is where it was presumably, the other door and shop front was just added. It probably was because the entrance was inside the passageway and customers didn't like using it, so they put a front access in. Makes sense.
I'm going back to Hanbury Street in a minute.
No problem doctoring the lettering on the gates of the yard, I'll just knock them back a bit.
Thanks for the help, your'e a love. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2862
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
|
Hi Jane,
"I think, if we do what some have suggested and move back the wooden structure, it will solve most of the problems, it will give the illusion of the yard being narrower because it will give a deeper perspective. I did actually draw over the top of the illustrations in my defense, so they got it wrong as well!"
Actually if you look at the Furness drawing with the wooden structure, posted by Robert Clack on January 13, 2005 - 4:39 pm, the stairs are not that long (they stop right behind the row of buildings), and I believe the stairs are the main problem because they fool the eye's impression of the distance. But in any way you can draw back the background would be great.
I do believe the stairs are the villain here. though.
If Inspector Hutch is bullying you, I'll bully him back. I still outrank him! Just give me a call... 
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 114
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
|
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the info on the lights in the street. I'll have to get a map and see if I can put them in the right place, a bit like spot the ball! I'll post it then and see if anyone thinks its right.
My sense of direction is dire, I daren't think where they'll end up!
Thanks
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 115
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:05 am: |
|
Hi Glenn,
You keep that whip away from me you naughty person you!
I can see what's happened, I was using a combo of the two pics and somehow the staircase got moved forwards and the right hand buildings moved back. That will teach me! Dead simple to fix. You do go the equivalent of word blind after a while looking at the pics and just don't see things that are staring you in the face. Good job I've got you chaps! Now that I look at the sketch with the clear drawing of the cart in it, it looks as if he
has the buildings on either side ending at about the same point, if anything the buildings on the left appear to stop very slightly in front of the ones of the right. In the other sketch, the reverse seems to be true, which pushes the wooden building further back where it should be. You are spot on Glenn (with 2 nn's sorry! bet that's really been annoying you, but you were too nice to say anything!)
I think I can get it just right now.
You have a great eye for spotting things, bet you're fantastic at spot the difference.
love Jane |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2864
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:09 am: |
|
Jane,
I would say I am a better spitter than spotter.
At least that's what they tell me.
OK, so that explains it, then. Great you sorted it out.
Believe me, Jane, nothing you do can annoy me -- not in a million years!
All the best
G. Andersson, author and naughty Swede
(read my tag line and weep)
(Message edited by Glenna on January 17, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 116
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
|
Hi Paul again,
About the body being 20 feet from the kitchen door, I don't think the yard was that long was it? If I put the Yard in perspective maybe it will look better. I tried putting drizzle in but it looked as if my cat had been at it. Might try again though, great minds and all that......
If not maybe some puddles on the ground or something.
All the best Jane |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 117
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:21 am: |
|
last post before I get back to work,
I'm glad everyone is cool with everyone else again. Believe me life is too short and too precious to waste it. Big hug to Monty, glad to see your smiling again (Your profile picture is brilliant, love it!)
Back to work, you slave drivers you!
Oh by the way reading back over the post it looks as if I'm about to pop my clogs -nearly -but I've just been told that I am going to get better! See you all at the conference!
love
Jane
xxxxxx |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 487
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
|
Jane, I love your drawings. Somehow I had always imagined Dutfield's Yard as mud and weeds. No reason especially except it was called a "yard". Also the mortuary shot of Stride shows her hair a bit matted. Do we have any data to say for sure whether it was cobbled or not? |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 119
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 9:08 am: |
|
Hi Diana,
I am definitely going to put weeds in the finished pic, but keep it subtle, we don't want it looking like a garden centre, also some mud or puddles of dirty water to show that it had been raining.
You're quite right, proof that the yard was muddy at the time was Liz's hair in the mortuary shot. I think it probably was cobbled, not only because one of the sketches does seem to show them clearly, but also because yards that were so heavily used at one time or another would have needed a permanent surface. Also Nats pointed out that the older buildings dated from the 18th century and they would certainly have put cobbles there in that case. Unless anyone has any other ideas? Over to you boys and girls! It would still have been muddy though.
Thanks for the post |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
|
HI Jane,
I believe that the gates were 18 ft from the kitchen door. So thats pretty close....for whatever thats worth.
I will also see if I can dig up exactly where the street lights were in berner street. Hope that helps. Paul
Paul
|
Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
|
Hi all,
regarding the newbies thread, until about 18 months ago I was a newbie and although I didn't post much I tried to avoid the old ground aspect as much as possible.
By reading through the message boards and absorbing as much as I could over and above the information I already knew I found my level ground and tried to contribute from that point.
Only when I found or did something different did I start a new thread, much like the excellent Jane has done with her contributions,(not that anything I have done comes close to her outstanding work).
Jane has proved that newbies are essential to keep the board alive, and should be encouraged to search the site themselves when old ground information is requested and not 'spoonfed' on every occasion. A little bit of research by oneself is far more rewarding than being given the answer by a grumpy git like me.
Jane has rekindled the interest for me again by bringing something new to the board.
Long live the newbie.
Regards as always,
Greg |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
|
I found the account of Stride's inquest in the Companion starting on page 153 and scrounged what details I could for you.
William West's testimony (pg 153): "He lived in one of the houses on the right hand side of the gateway . . . On the ground floor, facing the street was a window and a door, the latter leading into a passage. At the side of the house was a passage leading into the yard, and at the entrance to the passage were two wooden gates [sounds as though the passage was a narrow place which broadened as you entered the yard?] . . . There is a passage before you get to the yard. . . the passage had two wooden gates folding backwards from the street. In the northern gate there was a little door . . . In the yard on the left hand side there was only one house . . . (pg 154) That house contained three doors leading to the yard but there was no other exit from the yard except through the gates. Opposite the gate there was a workshop in the occupation of Messrs. Hindley, sack manufacturers. Witness did not believe there was any exit through that workshop. The manufacturing was on the ground floor and he believed the ground floor of the premises was unoccupied. Adjoining Messrs. Hindley's premises there was a stable, which he believed was unoccupied. Passing this stable a person would come to the premises forming the club. . . He was not sure that the gardens of the houses in Batty-street faced the yard[?] The club premises ran back a long way into the yard. The front room on the ground floor of the club was occupied as a dining room. At the middle of the passage there was a staircase leading to the first floor. At the back of the dining room was a kitchen. In this room there was a small window over the door which faced the one leading into the yard. The remainder of the passage led into the yard. Over the door in the passage was a small window, through which daylight came. At the back of the kitchen, but in no way connected with it was a printing office. This office consisted of two rooms. The one adjoining the kitchen was used as a composing room, and the other one was for the editor . . . Opposite the doorway of the kitchen, and in the yard were two closets. . . On the first floor of the club was a large room for entertainments, and from that room three windows faced the yard . . . (page 155) The windows of the hall were partly open. . . There was no lamp or light whatever in the yard. There were no lamps in Berner-street that could light the yard. The only light that could penetrate into the yard was from the windows of the club or the house that was let out in tenements. He noticed lights in one or two windows of the latter house and they were on the first floor. When he went into the printing office the editor was there reading. . .
(pg 156) From the testimony of Morris Eagle: . . . the gateway . . . was about 9 ft. 2 in. wide . . . I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about 6 or 7 feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard . . . the witness further said he could not remember how far from the wall the body was lying . . .
(pg 158) From the testimony of Louis Diemschutz: . . . had with him a costermonger's barrow . . . pony was not kept in the yard of the club . . . both gates were wide open. It was rather dark . . . (pg 159) The blood ran in the direction of the house from the neck of the woman [slope?] . . . body was lying about one foot from the wall. In the yard were a few paving stones which were very irregularly fixed. . . Did the blood run down as far as the door of the club? Witness: Yes . . ."
Hope this helps |
|
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