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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 82
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:44 pm: | 
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Thanks Richard,
considering I'm an artist, I don't half get lost easily. I thought the chair was on this side of the bed. What I'll do is a montage of all the views of the room together when they are done and I'll put the revised one with the chair on the other side in that one.
I suppose to be fair this could be another day altogether and she had moved it. What I might do is leave the night time one as is for the time being and do a day time version which will be easier to see - with everything in exactly the right place which will be better for reference for people that really want total accuracy, especially if it is for serious research.
I'll do a proper plan for myself so that I don't mess it up.
Jane
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2834
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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Uuuups! WOAH!
I've been away for a few hours and look what happens! Just simply incredible!
What an incredible lighting and atmosphere, and still such a care for details. One can hardly believe it is done on a computer.
I can only concur with Phil, Philip and others. You do know that your artwork probably from now on will be extensively used in future Ripper projects -- probably both books and television documentaries? At least they should be, if there is any justice in the world.How can you work so fast? I don't get it! Beacause in my experience it is sure as heck not easier and less time-consuming to do computer illustrations than painting an oil.
Yes, this second position of the table is better than the first one, and I believe, more accurate.
You have managed to bring new life to the individuals and the East End locations in a way that many probably didn't think was possible 116 years later. As stated by others, I feel proud of being one of those that were present when these pieces of art and research saw the light. You have opened up a whole new door to Ripperology, Jane. Maybe not regarding the identity of the murderer, but to give us all a better understanding of the social and human context. And for a historian like myself that is probably of more crucial importance.
And to think that there is more to come... this is such a blast!
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 14, 2005)
(Message edited by Glenna on January 14, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
I started taking an interest in JtR when I was 11 and started at Central Foundation Girls School in Spitalfield's. Most of the girl's there were from Whitechapel and many of them were Jewish. Because of my background, which we won't go into, I spent most of my childhood either being looked after by the prostitutes in our alley, who swapped kids with each other for convenience, or going to the homes of my Jewish school friends in Whitechapel. (There is a point to this)
This was 1963 and some of my Jewish friends did have very elderly relatives who were alive at the time and remembered it, even though they were quite young at the time.
I was obviously a little wary of speaking to them about it as I was only a child, but I was so interested in the case even then I risked it. The Jewish Community at that time was very tight knit as they were in the 1880’s and there was little love lost between Jews and Gentiles generally in my younger days, neither really trusting the other totally but not seriously so. I would go to Petticoat Lane market every Sunday morning and there was always some tension between the different communities, but it was not troublesome.
Most of the older members of the Jewish community still remembered JtR's times as being extremely difficult. Many of them had arrived only recently in the country and many spoke only Yiddish, which meant they were very much forced to keep themselves to themselves.
I knew, even then that there were Jewish suspects in the case and asked them about it. They simply shrugged their shoulders and said, ‘It wasn’t one of us.’ As if they really didn’t care if I believed them or not. Of course they probably would have said that if it was, but even as a child I had the impression that it was a statement of fact. They said that it didn’t really have anything to do with them, (meaning that it wasn’t really any of their business.) They truly didn’t seem to think that the Ripper was a Jew. When I mentioned that more than one Jew was accused of it at the time, again they shrugged and said,
‘The Jews always got the blame for everything,’ In hindsight, I find that sadly ironic in view of the words chalked on the wall in Goulston Street. which I walked passed almost every day.
Doesn't mean a thing really, because of course it could have been one of the Jewish suspects. I wonder if they were just shutting their eyes to it. Who knows? I still enjoyed hearing all of their stories of what it was like back then first hand.
The women in our row of houses that looked after me as a child were so much like Mary and her friends, I suppose that is why I do feel close to the victims. I don't know what it's like there now, I haven't been back for 30 years, I'm sure I wouldn't recognise the place or the people. Sad really.
I would still kill for some pie and mash.
Love Jane
xxxxx
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 84
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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Oh crumbs,
I'm going to get some real stick for that post aren't I?
Just to clarify, I'm not sayng that I don't think it was one of the Jewish suspects, I haven't got a clue to tell you the truth. Just telling it how it was. What do I know?
But I did get to see a lot of the sites when they were much closer to the way they are now, so aren't you jealous? Sent a tingle down my spine every time, but loved every minute of it!
I have had a very happy day, thanks to all of you, but I know I'm going to dream about pie and mash.
Dufield's yard tomorrow, promise and I did mean what I said about returning favours, please let me know if there is anything I can do to help any of you.
Night night,
Jane |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 127
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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Hi Jane.
What was the name of the street/court/biscuit tin where you lived? I'd like to go to the current site and jpeg you some photos. Least I can do. Fascinating little story above - so no, you won't get any stick. And if anyone tries then Glenn and me will get them - Glenn with insults in Swedish, me with surrealist humour!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2837
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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Hutch,
I'll will bring them insults in Swedish, Danish and English -- in other words, practically all the languages I know. Believe you me.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 85
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Would you be able to e-mail me your e-mail address, because I can't access you through the board and I want to send you a map of where I was born. It was Glebe Road at the back of Kingsland Road.
Thanks,
I'm still up, for a while.
Jane |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 39
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:17 am: |
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I have a copy of a photographic book (all black and white) called
East End and Docklands" by William J Fiscman; Nicholas Breach and John M Hall.
It was published by Duckworth in 1990. I recall i bought it at the same time as I bought the paperback edition of Fishman's book on the East End 1888, which came out in centennary year.
Anyway, there are large and excellent pics of Bucks Row/Durward St, showing Essex Wharf still largely intact; Winthrop St from the Board School before modern improvements to the area; and two of Wentworth Buildings, all as they were in c1988.
I don't want to post these (I'll have to refit my scanner etc) if everyone has seen these. If not, they might be of use as reference to Jane or others.
Please let me know.
Phil (Edited to get rid of unintentional bolding.)
(Message edited by phil on January 15, 2005) |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 130
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:02 am: |
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Phil : I am always keen to see such shots but please please go to no trouble.
I'd love to know what state the Wentworth Model Dwellings were in at the time. Perhaps if you can't post you could describe it for me? I am trying to discover when the staircase was ripped out as it clearly wasn't 1970 like some books say as I have film of it in 1980.
Jane & Robert C : I have e-mailed Spry about my private message facility not working.
Jane : I really would love to see you work on that famous shot of MJK on the bed - obviously removing her, but expanding the room from that angle, using what you can of the shot as a basis. I'm sure it would be staggering. I mean, it's not as if you're doing anything else! (Intention to insert smiley with whip here, but as per usual they won't upload)
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:49 am: |
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The first picture, of the Goulston St facade, shows four of the entries with the fretted stonework above - including "ours". The whole ground floor frontage is covered by a screen of corrugated iron. the entries seem to have been bricked up or sealed, although a small door can be glimpsed.
The shop units on the ground floor appear to be covered by roll-down metal blinds. It is unclear whether they were in use of not. one is the "Happy Days" restaurant , with a fish and chips sign adjacent; another (astride and entry nos 40/42) is called Bertha.
All upstairs windows appear to have lost their glass, though the sash frames remain in place. Some windows on the staircases have corrugated iron sheets to protect them, or prohibit access.
the second shot shows the Wentworth St facade, and what it calls the "former front entrance" - a lower section with a moulded pediment. Again the shops have roll-down metal blinds and appear to be in use.
No 26 is Faule
Two along is Tiffany's (shoes I think)
No 24 is "A Double Fashion"
Then (23?) is Jackie Bream Cash and Carry - Exclusiv (sic) ladies clothing.
The shots must be VERY early morning i think. I both cases market staff frames are in evidence, but the streets are deserted of people.
Does that help?
Phil |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2838
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:50 am: |
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Hutch,
Off the thread as usual, but since you as well seems to have troubles with uploading the emoticons...
I may come out like total dork for pointing this out (since you might know this already), but you do know that you can insert them by typing their HTML code?
\clipart
and then directly after the name of the emoticon between {} brackets.
There is a list of all the HTML codes and names of the different emoticons in the Help >> Formatting section (scroll down). (Otherwise just right-click on the emoticon in the meny here.)
An ordinary  smiley is easy
Just type : and then ).
As I said, you probably know this already, but anyway...
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1442
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
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Hi Jane,
I am dazzled by all your "hands on" knowledge
of Spitalfields/Whitechapel-and thankyou so much for sharing that with us.
I can see the residue of bitterness the East End Jewish comunity must have felt in the 50"s -having had so much mud flung at them to then have been targetted as harbouring Jack the Ripper.-of all people!I myself no longer accept that Kosminski was JtR.I think it has been accepted purely because Anderson believed so and because he was "confined to a lunatic asylum" until he died-making it all the more difficult to find out.I dont think Anderson was telling lies
just more likely led to believe what he did through a degree of prejudice-anyway thats for another thread.
incidently I have another book of William Fishman"s entitled "The Streets Of East London"
it too has some fascinating shots of the old East End
Take Care
and once again thankyou for all the wonderful stuff you have shared with us
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 44
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:13 am: |
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I think someone said earlier that Mr Astrakhan would probably not have felt very at ease in MJK's room. Thinking about that, another thought came to me, that the appearance of the room might have shocked us, but less so than something Jane cannot recreate, the SMELL.
Such a small room must have reeked of human sweat,and other things. If they used some sort of chamber pot, as I assume they must, then that too must have reeked.
Mary would presumably have tried to keep herself sweet and clean, but I rather assume that both she, Joe and any "lodgers" must have had stand-up washes, rather than a long soak and scrub, most of the time.
Do I recall a thought that there might have been a bath under the bed (hint from the murder pic?). If so, I wonder how often they used it?
That makes me wonder, as I type, could the intense fire and the melted kettle have been the result of a fire to heat water for a bath, getting out of control? That is, the fire and kettle have nothing to do with Jack. Why should Mary or AN Other, have needed a bath so badly? It is unlikely, given her known movements, that she was definitely meeting someone special on the night she was killed; unless Hutchinson got it wrong and Mr A was always expected?
But if the bath and fire were associated, it might be from days previously.
So probably I am letting imagination run away with me.
Forgive this further example of how i try to work things out for myself.
Phil |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 86
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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Can't believe it! Just come to the thread and no-one has had a punch up while I was away. I was beginning to think I'd have to throw cold water on the boys every morning!
I was thinking in bed last night (any jokes on that and I will get the rolling pin out).
I have personally always had trouble visualizing the accurate position of the victims in situ. All this business of feet eastward, recumbent with elevations here there and everywhere. I become totally disoriented when they are described with words. I'm sure there must be many others out there who feel the same.
I thought that it would probably be helpful to show the victims positions accurately in situ in a tolerably accurate reconstruction.
I can see huge problems though, which I will have to think round. There is no way that I can show them realistically post mortem - we are entering into realms that should not be entered here, even for the sake of research.
It was Philip's request to see an opened out shot of Mary in situ, which triggered the thoughts. I know many would like to see that too as it has already confused almost everyone at some time or other. I think I proved that when I got the room all bum about face in the reconstruction. (Thanks for your help Richard).
I think there might be a solution, see what you think....
What about I do the reconstruction as I have been, right lighting etc., for time of murder and place a generic but realistic figure in exactly the right position, fully dressed, but without any injuries or personality.(We all know what they were, we don't need reminding) I could obscure sensitive areas with a blur or something. This would probably be what the police would do for a reconstruction today if they needed public input.
Any thoughts on this one. I'm sure that there is a need for something like this out there, just need to keep it palatable.
I also got quite excited (definitely no comments on that one) last night, because I had a really good idea which I think will work well. I was going to just tell you and then not do it for awhile to annoy you, but as you've been good at least on this thread during the night, I'll post it in about an hour.
love Jane
xxxxxx
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:59 am: |
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Just off to have some lunch with my daughter so will read the rest of the thread later
Phil-agree with you about the organic smells being something to release before the arrival of anyone "posh" or rather any "Mr Astrakhan" arrived.And its worth talking about the state of Mary"s room-whether apart from the JtR devasation
of Mary-there was otherwise any attempt to have "tidied up".Mary was referred to as being a seen by Walter Dew as being a "buxom girl
quite pretty and always wearing a clean white apron".I think when she wasnt in her cups she tried very hard to keep herself as clean and tidy as possible regardless of who she expected to meet
and her clothes [taken off before sleep or by the killer?]were in a "neatly folded pile on a chair".
So she really seems to have done her best to keep up appearances and to keep herself clean and tidy
but whether she was successful with her room I have no idea as yet.Its worth looking into Phil.
Jane,yes I agree with you completely.Any "reconstruction" of this kind could in my view border on pornography as well as being insensitive to the outrageousness vandalism on her corpse by the ripper!
What you suggest as an alternative sounds fine though.
Natalie |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 87
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Hi other Phil and Natalie,
As this discussion seems to have started up about hygiene, I can maybe put in something constructive.
You're right I think in pointing out, that the debris and smells would not have originated with Mary herself, but her guests. The worst smell would probably have been damp, which could not be wafted out.
This is really only applicable to Mary as the others were in different positions, but Mary herself I can state with almost certainty would have been tolerably clean - alright, we are not talking Dettol adverts here, but she was an attractive young woman and just as vain as any young woman of that age would be. Natalie has already brought out about the apron and the folded clothes, pretty good evidence.
It is actually amazing how little one can wash and keep tolerably clean. (I do have a bath now every day I promise) but when I was a kid, our washing facilities were identical to most of the working class families in 1888. The tin bath was got out once a month if that and then we all took turns in the water, the cleanest going first! We usually just had a wash down in a bowl of water boiled in the kettle. Mary only had a kettle and not a 'copper' which was simply a basic boiler (made of zinc I think) and actually quite standard in many working class homes. It was heated by gas in many, even at that time. If they didn't have a copper, they would have a huge pot for boiling water in on the range. The water had to be poured in from the tap using saucepans and got out the same way, then ladled into the bath and ladled out again. Right performance.
Even so, we did keep clean, at least to an acceptable standard.
You don't have to read this if you're bored but the laundry was perhaps not done as you might expect. Maria Harvey was supposedly a laundress, although this may have beena euphemism. The fact that she left some clothes, probably suggests that she did do it at least some of the time. The process was called a 'bagwash'. The laundress would work from a small shed or room, used by several others which contained a copper, a wringer and sink. Customers would take their washing in a bag, usually an old pillow case or something like that, a ticket was pinned to their wash and they were given the other half, just like a launderette or dry cleaners today.
All you had to do was pick it up a couple of days later and it was incredibly cheap. This was definitely identical to Mary's day.
The laundry was done in very hot water with a Reckitt's blue bag, which turned the water blue and it did get the whites as white as any washing powder today, but with a damn sight more work! So Mary's apron would have been very clean. She probably got Maria to do it for her, in the absence of her own facilities.
Ironing was done with a couple of small metal irons heated on the fire, one on heating up and one off, and they did quite good job.
So I hope those of you who think that Mary was slovenly and dirty might have a rethink,
Her sheets might have been cleaner than you think!
Willing to take some flack for this, but I won't give way much on this so be prepared for a heated debate!
love Jane
xxxx
just to smooth things over, I'm posting the pic I promised. It is actually a new technique, even though it looks the same as the others. Opens up a whole new can of worms. See what you think.
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 88
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Here is one of the front of Hanbury Street, and I know it is night time and the murder was committed as it was getting light, but I just wanted to try this out. Let's just say that Jack was checking the place out at night for viability!
If you think this works, I'll be a very happy bunny. I promise I'm going to put up Dutfield's Yard soon, got side tracked sorry!
love jane
xxxxx
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2841
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
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Jane,
Wow!
A beautiful and enchanting picture as usual.
And again, a lot of atmosphere created by a brilliant use of lighting/shadows and colours.
The building is also a very inviting subject, since it has got quite a rustic feel about it.
I would have loved a little more sharpness and less blur, though -- it's a bit of a shame to let those great details disappear in a blurred image -- mostly concerning the upper windows (it feels a bit like when I have forgotten to put my glasses on), but that's just me...
Great job, Jane! And yes -- of course it works!!!! Why do you doubt that?
Good luck with Dutfield's Yard (I do wish I had your energy and working spirit).
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 15, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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nateb
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:27 am: |
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A quick question; what ever became of the kidney that was mailed along with the supposed Ripper letter? anyone who could shed light on this would be greatly appreciated, as I have never read anything as to this.
Thanks,
Nate |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 91
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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Hi Glen,
That's what I wanted you to say about the upper windows. That's what I was testing. As soon as I posted it I realized it needed adjusting. It made me feel sea sick. Thanks.
As this is important to me, if not to anyne else, I hope Stephen doesn't mind if I post it again corrected, because if I can get this down cold, you lovely lot can have practically anything you want that would be useful for research etc and very quickly.
Thanks for the input. |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 92
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Here's the corrected one,
hope this looks better. If Stephen wants to take the first one off to save space, I want wonder where it's gone!
Jane
xxxxx
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2843
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
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Jane!
Much better. I love it!
Thumbs up.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 93
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:47 am: |
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Looking back at the other one,
I think something went wrong with it, because it's not looking at all like the one I put up having checked back. Gremlins I think. This one seems to be okay.
I am a definitely doing Dutfield's Yard now! |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 132
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Natalie : I agree with you about Kosminski. My previous #1 suspect. No longer.
Phil : "the appearance of the room might have shocked us, but less so than something Jane cannot recreate, the SMELL" - Bet I can! 
Thanks for the info on WMD - you know I want to see it for myself, but I won't push you!
Glenn : I knew I could put in the codes, but you try remembering the actual codes for over a hundred icons! It takes several other screens to get to the codes themselves. Too much hassle!
Jane : "It was Philip's request to see an opened out shot of Mary in situ" - Erm... actually no. I want to see the room from the angle of that shot - using the shot as a basis to colourise and opening it up at the sides, but removing Mary from it!
You will hate this - a problem with the facade of 29 Hanbury Street. This is a photo Stewart Evans took in 1967, and the 'N Brill' would deffo not have been there when Harriet was selling horse-bits-for-Mr-Diddles. God knows what it would have said, though? Maybe best to remove all writing from overhead if we can't find out?
I concure with Glenn's comments 100%, but then that is to be expected as we have set up our own unofficial Mutual Appreciation Society! 
Nateb : Not the place to have posted this particular question, I think, but I am sure someone on these boards can tell you. I think you'll find a great deal of this material was not considered for keeping after inspection and reports were made and was just disposed of - whereas a lot of documents over the years have been stolen. Oh, for a piece of apron... Oh for the rumoured Shoreditch photo(s) of MJK (OK, not pleasant, but don't tell me you're all not curious too).
Think that's covered everything!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3894
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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Jane, great picture. Just letting my mind wander here, I find the lighting a bit reminiscent of a spotlight - very apt, because it's possible Jack saw himself as putting on a show.
I was going to mention Brill, but Philip's done the nasty deed already. Another point though : was there some discussion a while ago about how many doors there were in 1888?
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2844
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
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Hi Hutch,
"Glenn : I knew I could put in the codes, but you try remembering the actual codes for over a hundred icons! It takes several other screens to get to the codes themselves. Too much hassle!"
Just an advice; stick to four or five favourites that fits different moods -- that is what I usually do. After all, it is only the name of the emoticon as such that is different, the rest of the code is always the same, so it's not THAT much of a hazzle.
"I concure with Glenn's comments 100%, but then that is to be expected as we have set up our own unofficial Mutual Appreciation Society!"
How cute!
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
P.S. Your stuff is in the mail and will reach you in the beginning of next week, hopefully.
(Message edited by Glenna on January 15, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 94
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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Philip, I'm so sorry, about the Mary in situ thing. I'm a bit punch drunk at the moment. I wasn't implying that you wanted to see Mary as is in the scene, rather just her position in relation to it. Which is why I went onto the rest of the conversation, I'm so sorry if I misconstrued what you said. Am I forgiven?
I did wonder about the Brill business. I took the Brylcreem ad off, but thought you would pick up on the writing if it was wrong. Didn't know how old the writing was. I should have I walked passed it often enough at the time. Must be getting old.
The lighting I was forced into really, because any other way just looked awful. I thought it might be a lantern or something being used by a passing copper on his beat. If anyone has any views on the doors, would be useful to everyone I think.
Now, at the risk of starting the fur flying again on the light in Dutfield's Yard. Did we ever resolve that very lengthy and intriguing debate? In the model reconstruction there is a window right above the murder spot. In the sketches there is none. This is so important that it can't be overlooked, so I have to find out somehow. Any offers? I want to get this totally right as it might resolve the debate once and for all, with all your help. Or start or whole new one! I will make sure that I get exactly the right light coming out of all of the windows because it's so important to the case. I'll make sure that only the right ones are lit this time, even if it doesn't look quite so right artistically.
I'll take the N Brill off now but won't post it again, it's done though.
Thank you so much for all your help.
Big hug to Philip for not reading his posts carefully enough. Slapped wrist.
Jane |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 283
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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Hutch--
I was advised to put the emotiocons in after you've put your post in "preview" (then previewing it again) and it's worked for me.
Hope I explained that intelligibly!
Mags
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Thanks Glenn & Maria for the help here. Glenn, if you think I can be expressed by 4 emoticons...
I'm an actor! How can I only have 4 emotions?!
You will regret giving me these tips. As if I wasn't bad enough with emoticons already...
Jane - forgive you for slighting my unsullied perfection? Never. You hurt my feelings and now I'm going to have to post my OWN reconstruction of Miller's Court.
There. See? Anyone can do it.
PHILIP
PS : 
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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Oh Philip, I nearly fell off my chair, you are funny.
It was only that I had just gone on about how I thought it would be horrendous showing the actual corpses in situ and then it looked as if I went on to say it was your idea! It just shows how careful you have to be. What a prune I am sometimes! That's not a self portrait above is it?
By the way, I've just looked at your profile picture. I hope you wrap up when you go out on your tours, you'll catch your death, without a coat on!
I'm getting on with Dutfield's yard, not looking bad, still worried about that window though.
All the best Jane
xxxx
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 136
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
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"What do you mean funny? You mean funny ha ha like a clown? Is that what you mean? You think I'm a clown?"
I'll have you know that picture took me a long time to do. I just believe in minimalism.
That picture on my profile was taken in September. I have a fantastic black wool coat I wear this time of year. It looks the business. And I wear a gold horseshoe stickpin in it (true).
No, it's not a self-portrait. It's of James Maybrick.
HEE HEE!!! Now watch the chaos!
PHILIP
x
PS : If anybody wishes to buy my picture, 'The Psychological Torment Of Lucifer's Desciple', I am open to offers. It is ink on second-hand paper, measures approx 10.5cm x 6.5cm - I could sign it if you want. All profits to the Phil & Kitty Reconciliation Fund.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Jane - the No 29 picture is great.
I was going to mention the Brill sign. Would Harriet Hardiman have been able to afford a sign? However, Mrs Richardson had been at No29 for 15 years and was carrying on her husband's business. According to Paul Begg's latest book (p 74) "A notice board above the doorway that led into the yard bore the legend in straggling white letters, MRS. A. RICHARDSON, ROUGH PACKING-CASE MANUFACTURER.
There is an illustration in the Ultimate Source Book (from which Begg's statement may be drawn) which also shows only a single door.
Hope this is of use.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
I looked up two separate contemporary sketches of Dutfields Yard and neither had a window above the body,hence the term "blind wall".However in both pictures there is this slightly arched [top of a basement window?]strip of vertical half bricks and just below the bricks a horizontal section of wood which squares off the top of this basement window.Then from the ground to the top edge of this window,a distance it looks of about one foot from the ground, there are 6 vertical bars.
Hope this helps Jane-enjoyed your coverage of Whitechapel above!
Natsxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Thanks for that Phil Hill,
The sign might be quite good fun to put in, it would give it real authenticity. I wonder what the front would have been like then exactly? I think that the yard door does look slightly older than the other one, although it could be my imagination, but I think that does look okay for the era, even so. I do hope that's not a letter box!
Anyone fancy a challenge of doing a quick scribble of what they think it would have been like exactly. I know everyone would appreciate it. At the moment I think most people will be seeing that shop front exactly as is, in their minds when they imagine the scene on the night (morning) of the murder. Especially when you consider that Annie and partner were right up against it only moments before the crime. If someone is happy to do even a Philip style sketch (he's going to hit me in a minute!) I can get to just right. Be an interesting exercise.
Anyone know the age of the building?
best wishes
Jane |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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Hi again Jane,
Sorry got carried away there a bit[computewr playing up] The blind wall clearly shown to be made of BRICK not wood as has been written by one or two authors.
Your images of Hanbury Street are superb.Very real
-they remind me of the shop that still exists nr Brushfield Street which has very old ads on it for Paper Bags!
Love the colours too!
Nats |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 51
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
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Can anyone post a scanned in copy of the Sourcebook illustration I referred to? That is quite good. My scanner is not connected at the moment.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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Posts crossing again,I think the age of those houses is early 1700"s.Nearly all were built by the Huguenot silk weavers and mostly around the same time as Fournier Street which is definitely 81th century.I am not able to draw with a computer yet.Must learn soon!
Natsx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2847
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
According to Paul Begg, the building had probably been built around 1740 by a carpenter named Daniel Marsillat. It had in its younger days among other things been a silk-weaver's cottage.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2848
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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Natalie,
Rats... You beat me to it!
Jane,
I can also add, that Begg refers to an entertainer named Bud Flanagan, who in 1896 stated that the street was "a patchwork of small shops, doss houses, cap factories and sweat shops" and that it was ill-lit. Flanagan also said that the houses "were clean inside, but the exteriors were rather shoddy".
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 15, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 137
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
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Here we are then.
About time I posted something useful today!
I would exercise a little caution, folks, until we know for sure about that door. I know today on the other side of the street some of the buildings have one door and some have 2 in just the same style. This really does need some serious looking into.
Anyway...
Y'luv me and ya know ya do.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
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Some great stuff here guys, I'm sure there are lots people out there that love you as much as I do for these offerings!!!!
I had guessed at mid 18th century because of the size and shape of the upstairs windows, which are typical of that period, but you can never tell for certain, some strange things seemed to go on at that time!
That sketch looks like it might be right at first glance. Got the sign above the door. That window next to it, does look mid 18th c with the shutters and the panes as they are. The upstairs windows in the pic I posted I really think are original, but in the drawing that Philip posted the artist seems to have elongated and narrowed them a bit.
The downstairs window in the sketch does remind me of some of the modern photos that have been posted of remaining 18th c houses in Spitalfields. I'll give it a bit longer and maybe try putting a provisional pic together which might help people decide which is right.
It will be interesting to see it as was, especially if I can do a reconstruction of Jtr and Annie outside at the time. That would give me a real buzz. 'Fraid it would only be the back of Jack though as per Mrs Long. I'm not sure how she could tell he was foreign and over forty though if she could only see his back!
Answers on a postcard please!
I'm still struggling with the horse much in Dutfield's yard, thanks Natalie for the points you raised, helped a lot.
Jane
xxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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Re last post,
That should read horse muck, not horse much in the last paragraph and that's before I have a sherry! Be afraid, be very afraid!
Jane
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 52
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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Thanks, Philip. That is precisely the pic I had in mind.
Phil |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 435
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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Heres a couple of contemporary sketches of 29 Hanbury Street. Both show only one door, and quite a large one at that. The only noticeable difference is the "Richardson Packing Case Maker" sign is larger in one of them.
Rob |
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 209
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Philip, mate..
Is that masterpiece up for sale? I'll swap you an authentic Bryant and Mays tin match box for it! I would love to have it on my wall - no ****!
Jane, I simply love your renditions.. but you've neglected something from the scene at Miller's Ct... No FM (heh heh!) Or is the scene pre-Maybrick?? 
Just kidding, of course! Your recreation of Miller's Ct is awesome. You might add the tin bath (or what looks like a tin bath) under the bed. I somehow don't think it was big enough (from looking at the photos) for Mary or Joe to actually bath in, but rather something to do washing in. Just my HO, tho', and I could be wrong.
As an aside, you're completely right about people just making do with a "stand up" wash being able to keep themselves clean... I have been without running water in my flat for the past week, and have had to make do with a stand up wash in the communal lav in my building. (Yes, I have had to cope with my neighbours knocking on the door and telling me to hurry up). It's my hope that should I get run over, the hospital staff and police would indeed say, as with Mary, "she was clean".
Bestest,
Lyn (remembering to make sure she has clean knickers on just in case)
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 138
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
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WOW! Only one door to #29! How much does that pee on the parade of my mental image?! Yet another thing I have to correct for the tour. That is astounding; I had always assumed (like most of us, I guess) it was 2 doors.
Jane - note also the sign saying 'Cats Meat' in the window of one of the drawings!
I could always get you some photos of houses in Hanbury Street today you could cull from, but it may be a few days - just had 5 Ripper walks in a row cancelled as there is just no tourism after New Year! Still, some of the houses do look VERY similar at full elevation to the ones posted here.
Lyn - I could easily produce more gems. I'll post them on the Pub Talk thread if so; don't want to shine TOO much over Jane and all that...
PHILIP
x
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 211
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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Well, Phil..
Matchbox (empty, heh heh!) is here if you want it...
I could always sell it on eBay as haunted, for megga bucks...
I'd (seriously) love your masterpiece in my collection (yes, call me mad, I know I am!)
Am still willing to swap the Bryant and May tin matchbox..
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 139
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:09 pm: |
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Lyn. You are mad. One has to ask the question... WHY? Of course it is yours if you want it, but you will be sorely disappointed. It's current minimalist crude charm will soon be overtaken by it's resemblance to a scribble on a piece of scrap paper. But that's the secret magic of my artistic formula.
I don't need your Bryant & May matchbox in return. It sounds like you currently need it as a strange washing utensil.
What scene would you like me to produce for you next, my dear? I shall post it on the Pub Talk thread once done. You may have to wait a while for me to do it though. About 30 seconds.
PHILIP
x
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 212
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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Okay, I'm mad (as you say).
I need stuff to fill the walls of my lonely flat, is all. And I thought that my matchbox would be fair dibs. So, call me desperate.. but my walls are empty, and need filling. I was just offering something in return.
Bestest,
Lyn
P.S. perhaps a view of the tub under the bed..
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 272
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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Hey Everyone,
I just want to clear one thing up here. Monty gave Glenn and I a few unneccessary words on the last page and I didnt really think that was cool.
Both Glenn and I were talking about the lax in the topics on the boards not the board in general. The board as a whole is tremendous. But as Glenn said...there havent really been too many fresh topics besides the watch and Maybrick and I try not to get into that.
As Monty said..."quit your bitchin"...I was simply stating that a breath of fresh air is always good to liven things up. And I try not to be too confrontational on these boards if someone disagrees with my view. I just think that the comment was uncalled for, and maybe Monty didnt mean it the way it came out. I thought we were cool man. I was just stating an opinion that is obviously shared by others as well. So, Monty...Im not trying to start an argument with you, I was just pointing out that a little more tact would have worked far better. Its all good though. Peace
Paul
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