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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 44
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:39 am: | 
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NOW LISTEN!
I leave the site for five minutes to get some sleep and you lot get completely out of control!
Well I'm back now, so behave yourselves!
If I stop to make anyone a cup of tea you won't get anymore pictures.
Right serious stuff. I would love anything anyone has on Dutfield's yard, doesn't matter about the quality, I don't care if it's in hieroglythics on loo paper. I've got one of the main frontage almost ready, similar to the view that Natalie did in her painting which was very helpful by the way.
I'm just posting the two victims I've go ready over on the artwork thread if anyones interested. You lot behave yourselves while I'm gone!
love Jane
xxxxxxx
 |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 73
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:53 am: |
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Yes, everyone!
Firstly Queen Victoria has given me a week off.
Secondly, if I have to make any of you lot tea then I won't be able to post up my copy of William Stewart's model of Dutfields Yard.
I tell you what, though - I DO have some lovely black grapes. They might make you a little sleepy. To start with. 
Now stop picking on the new kids you big bullies, or we'll form our own gang and I'll post picutres of the WEST End and say they are East End and Jane will make pictures of famous ecclesiasts!
Jane : Image to follow later today, so long as some vicious, nasty, evil Assistant Commissioners leave me alone. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 467
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
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I think a lot of this stuff belongs on the insult thread. |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 80
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:19 am: |
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But would anybody see it if it were there, Di?
Bum - can't upload the smiley icons AGAIN. Having a very dodgy day with my PC here.
Jane - here's the William Stewart picture of Dutfield's Yard. His model has problems of course as I believe Stride was curled up and, of course, the gates were open. First time I saw this image on a programme I thought it was the real thing. I was so disappointed when I found out it was a model.
Here we go then :
I have a photocopy of a photograph Stewart took of the Durward Street yard entrance in 1938 as well when you need it.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 81
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
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But would anybody see it if it were there, Di?
Bum - can't upload the smiley icons AGAIN. Having a very dodgy day with my PC here.
Jane - here's the William Stewart picture of Dutfield's Yard. His model has problems of course as I believe Stride was curled up and, of course, the gates were open. First time I saw this image on a programme I thought it was the real thing. I was so disappointed when I found out it was a model.
Here we go then :
I have a photocopy of a photograph Stewart took of the Durward Street yard entrance in 1938 as well when you need it.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 82
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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You see what I mean about the PC problems?!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 54
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:00 am: |
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Thanks Phil, good pic, it does give me a start. I've got some contemporary illustrations and I'm going over the message board that discussed it, if I can find it again. There was a lot of talk about situation of windows etc.,
Just at first glance, I take it that what we have here is a view of the Working men's club side entrance. The window that 's shown on the first floor there is obviously the side of the first floor. I seem to remember talk of a window on the ground floor near the door somehwere, throwing some light. Am I imagining things?
Kitchen? So much stuff to go over, I don't know where to start. Whaat I might do is post a very small monage of shots I've got and ask if anyone can offer any help on which to use.
I'm planning a few different views if possible. I know there were 2 loos in the yard, Oh please don't let's go there again!!!!!!! I presume they were at the back as there were houses on the left and you go in (small dwellings of some sort by recollection) and the club on the right.
Was there a man sized door set in the gates, seem to remember that from somewhere too.
I really want to get the lighting right on this one as I know there have been punch ups on the board over it! I hope I don't start another one!
Very important - any ideas about other exits, again I seem to remember that someone mentioned a back alley running along the back on an old map, although goodness knows where I got that from. I'll post the small montage and see what anyone is kind enough to come up with.
Once again many thanks for the pic Philip, sorry about the PC, I had a fight with mine this morning but I won! (I use a Mac anyway so I can usually cope.) I can use a PC okay, used to teach computer graphics on them, but they don't like me very much, I have to talk to them a lot and pat them now and again.
Jane
xxxxx |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:24 am: |
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Just found this description, but can't remember where I found it.
'On the left of Berner Street, directly opposite the new London School Board building (and below the cartwheel in the photograph) is Dutfield's yard. Four houses north of Fairclough, to the left of the International Worker's Educational Club, is a pair of wooden gates which provide access to the yard. The left gate was fitted with a wicker gate to be used when the gate's proper were closed. Lettered in white paint on the gates is "W. Hindley, Sack Manufacturer" and "A. Dutfield, Van and Cart Builder". Dutfield had actually moved his business to Pinchin Street prior to the murder. The cart making business was located next to an unused stable on the west side if the yard. Also on the west side is the sack manufacturer. On the north side, on your right as you enter the gates, is the Worker's Club. On the south side are three artisan's dwellings converted from older buildings. On the left of the entrance are terraced cottages occupied by cigarette makers and tailors.'
Not only loos but a stable as well. I presume the wicker gate means a literally that. if it was metal like on shop fronts I think they would have said so. Maybe a fence panel type thing if not? No mention of a man sized gate set in here, but I'm sure I read it somewhere.
Jane |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:30 am: |
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Yo Jane.
There is indeed a man-sized door on the gateway if you look at Stewart's model.
In regards to an alleyway at the back, I had always heard that Dutfield's Yard was a cul-de-sac and one of the whole areas of discussion was that Stride had just been killed, Diemschutz had seen no one run out and the possibility is the assailant was hiding at the end of the alley and ran off when Diemschutz summoned help?
Willing to be corrected from someone who knows better!
I feel the alleyway in the model looks too wide myself, but apparently Stewart was very meticulous and talented when it came to making his models.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:41 am: |
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Thanks Philip, yes definitely a door!
It's nice to know the model is probably accurate. As to the alley, I think it was only one post I read somewhere, so I have to say on balance there probably was no other entrance. Unless someone else knows better! This is going to be interesting to do and see if it throws up any new thoughts.
JtR astounds me with his seemingly reckless actions. (Not thinking of Dutfield's Yard here really , just generally) He must have had nerves of steel. I'm still on the fence as to whether Liz was a victim of JtR or not, I might jump one way or the other when I have these pics finished.
all the best
Jane
xxxxxx
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 84
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
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Don't start on that one Jane!
I have my own feelings about who was and who wasn't but it is subjective and I think the rows that so often erupt on here fulfill very little. Is 'fulfill' one or 2 'l's? So I keep it to myself unless asked and there is no chance of a storm in a teacup.
Recklessness? Sure that's part of why he is our #1 bad boy so long after the event.
I DO have a problem with part of the Ripper story that has bugged me for ages. I discussed it with Lyn & Thomas in the chatroom last night and I thought it was obvious, but clearly isn't - so I'm going to start a new strand to work out why a crucial part of the Ripper story seems to contradict itself.
Keep 'em peeled.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2810
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:59 am: |
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Hutch,
I just tuned into this thread, and wow!
OK, it's a model, and -- yes, Stride is not correctly in position and yes the gates were open -- but what a picture! I have never seen a real attempt of reconstructing the inside of Dutfield's yard (or rather in this case, the passage leading to it). Thanks for that.
Jane,
Yes, either Jack had nerves of steel or he just simply was a rather obsessed guy with a lot of luck... who knows?
Good luck with Dutfield's yard -- I will look forward to it as much as I look forward to any of your contributions.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1425
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:37 am: |
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Very interesting reconsrtuction of William Stewart"s.Yes That would be close I think although there are several accounts that describe the Berner Street Club as being a "wooden Structure".There is a contemporary drawing of it between pages 374 and 376 in "The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook" - Evans and SkinnerSkinner-which is helpful but Reading about the yard itself I learnt that there were [I think I remember correctly]some three small houses made from one[a terrace of cttages I supposed]which stood opposite the blind wall of the club and the blind wall had three windows on the upper levels [the club had 2 stories] and a ground floor door that led into the kitchen.
One of the witnesses lived in one of the above cottages from what I could glean-Mrs Mortimer?
and there was a printing office at the rear with windows onto the yard which was it seems made of stone.The bamboo door[which I presume was a small door cut into the big Gates seen in the book]was "open on the night of the Murder".Puzzling but maybe someone else has more information on
this contraption within the gate itself.
Looking forward to seeing your Dutfields Yard Jane
Good Luck
Natalie |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 58
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie,
That's a great help. I'm posting a montage of bits I've got with a few questions, would be very glad of some help to get me started.
Interesting about the club being a wooden structure, The illustration shows brick at the front, could it have a wooden extension or something?
Thanks for all the help to everyone
love Jane
xxxxx
Just seen Philips pics on the new thread. Spitalfields Nippers. Totally incredible.
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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One thing I've just noticed puzzles me, In the model the first few yards of the club wall seem to be set back by about a foot, well a few inches at least, with the wall jutting out a little after the window. Yet in the long shot of the street, the wall seems flush all the way up to the roof. I suppose I have believe the photo, but I wonder why it's like that in the model?
Jane
xxxxxx |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1427
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
That sketch showing Berner Street puzzles me too.I wonder if its a mirror image of somekind.The reason I say this is because somewhere,I can"t yet remember where,I saw a drawing of the cottages opposite the blind wall and they loked just like the ones in the main drawing of the Berner Street Club.I will remember where I saw them soon I know but anyway the building at the back looks as though it could be the printing offices of the Arbiter Feint.
As for the Wooden Structure---I think you may very well be right about this because if you go now to Berner Street you can see a house with a red brick[actually
painted a rather unpleasing pink]and Robert Clack has put a recent photograph of the house on this site[I think its on the East End thread].It looks exactly like the front of the Berner Street Club does in the I.W.E./Durdans Yard picture above leading me to think that at some point the house must have been extended at the rear ---possibly as you say with a wooden annexe.I am going out now but will be back about 9.30 and will look it all up then.
Cheers
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 89
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Unable to help further with this particular one, I'm afraid! I've not seen some of the Berner Street sketches you put up here, Jane and with this being the first to go in 1909 this will probably (no - definitely) be your most speculative of the lot but yes, I would advise you to wait for a short while until The Great Clacky has informed you from his Font Of All Knowing!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Having just spent twenty minutes putting together a post about reversed images and lots of other codswallop, I think I've actually sussed it.
I'll post the pic again with scribbles on bigger and see what you think.
Love Jane |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 62
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:37 pm: |
|
Here it is, totally rubbish drawing but did it quick. Am I going crackers or could that be right. If so there is a window by the kitchen door and what are those doors behind?
Printers offices? that would explain why you can't see the recess in the wall by the kitchen door on the long view of the street, it only goes up to the first floor.
I'm directionally dyslexic, but would that mean that the stable and the sack maker were at the back of the yard i.e the west side and the gates were set in the east side of the yard? Please don't laugh at me if I've got that totally wrong. I get lost going to the shops!
Here it is..... |
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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That does look as if it might be it. If so this is invaluable for a reconstruction.
I wonder if the artist wasn't allowed into the yard by the police and had to stand at the corner of the gate to do a quick sketch? There would have been crowds all around anyway, might have had to push his way in and that was the best place to stand without getting jostled.
Juat a thought, probably totally wrong.
love Jane
xxxxxxx
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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Jane
Gosh! Lot of activity in Dutfields here!
Am thinking that the yard was a lot smaller than shown here and that Liz (God I hate the Liz thing!) was a lot closer to that kitchen door....is it not totally possible that the killer (!) scuttled off into the murk and the stables and then mingled with the crowd to get out and then went home probably leaving someone else to do for dear Kate?
Suzi
PS emoticons WILL NOT TALK HERE EITHER!Grrrrrrrrrr
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2811
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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I agree with Suzi, jane.
I think a more crammed and narrow feeling of the yard would do the trick, so maybe you will be forced to zoom in a bit in the picture to make it work, I don't know. But not that much space, at least, I feel.
Stride was lying in the very narrow passage (just inside the gates) leading to the yard, so don't make the space look to open.
Another thing, regarding the collage of several pictures above... the one to the far left below (the sketch with Diemschutz and the candle) is from the illustrated press. Once again, beware of those because they are very seldom accurate. They can be good for comparison, but dont lay too much weight upon them as information.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2812
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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Jane,
My advice would be that you make two scenes from inside the gates (unless that already was your intention) -- one close to the perspective and crop of the model(with Stride lying there) and one looking into the back of the yard, as shown in your last drawing (which is NOT rubbish -- don't even mention that word in connection with anything you do), where Stride not necessarily have to be visible.
Just a thought.
All the best
G, Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1428
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Jane,
I think you have just about cracked it but ...I knew I had seen another contemporary sketch of the ACTUAL yard itself!!!So -have you got Donald Rumbelow"s Complete JtR?I no longer have the old copy but am pretty sure it is in both the older edition and the new.Anyway,between pages 176 and 177 of the new edition among the other photographs sketches etc there it is.Dutfields yard,from the big gate looking down towards the printing offices and stable.It looks to be a little cobbled street,with 3 terraced cottages perpendicular to the print shop which appears as next to a stable.Then again at right angles to these are is looks like the wooden back part/annexe of the club leading on to the blind Wall[which looks again more like strips of wood than bricks and the body is roughly where you have put it.
Hope someone can put it on line for you Jane if the book isnt to hand.I havent learnt how yet[next business!]
Best Natsx |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 424
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
|
Hi Jane, Natalie
This is the sketch Natalie mentions
I've also got this one drawn around 1903, part of the Harold Furness series I believe.
All the best
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1429
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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Hi Rob,this last one is brilliant.Hadnt seen it before but it makes the stable appear to be in front of the print shop.Can that be ?Maybe you had to climb the stairs to get to the print shop.
Many thanks for posting the other picture.Yes -thats the one!
I have found another too from Jack the Ripper Letters from Hell[recent and not hardback].On pge
19 the blind wall can be seen to be made of BRICK!
Elizabeth Stride lies alongside what looks to be a grill some 18 inches high-possibly the top of a basement window with a typical arch above made from a single row of bricks and the grill to stop people being able to get through the window.
In this sketch there is a smaller "inset" door within the big wooden gate.Quite helpful too.
Hope Jane you can jigsaw this together.
Nats |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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Jane - I will stick my neck out here and say Harold Furniss and his Famous Crimes series are superb illustrations.
You know the famous image of Alfred Crow finding Tabram on the staircase of GYB? There is a photograph of that very staircase elsewhere on Casebook just before demolition and it is exactly as Furniss put it!
I have several issues of the first volume (on Charles Peace) and the attention to detail is second to none, so I would say Furniss's illustrator knew what he was doing.
And of course these illustrations come 6 years before Dutfields Yard came down, so could easily have been done from life (it appears that GYB clearly was). On my OS map the entrance to Dutfields Yard appears to be about 9 feet wide, then widens on the left.
I shall try to get a nice large image and put it up for you.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 64
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Oh wow,
Thank you guys, I've struck gold, even though you dug it up for me! I am so grateful, because I didn't know how I was going to do it.
These pics are just great. I will keep it very tight and claustrophic. Daytime and night time scenes coming up. Will get started first thing in the morning.
Thanks once again.
Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2814
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
|
Robert,
That last one was really good, I think. That could work as a base.
Hutch,
Be careful about your neck. 
Just kidding; may be that I have gotten the wrong impression about them. I do like them as illustrations -- they contain a lot of atmosphere and some interesting depicting of the events. I have always been a bit doubtful about their accuracy though, but it may be that my less pleasant experiences from old newspaper illustrations are clouding my judgements here.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 65
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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Hi Glen,
I will use that one as a base I think, it is tight and atmospheric, feel a bit guilty, poaching someone elses work, but unless the artist has got a time machine, he's not going to know. Really great piece of work he did. Might be a nice tribute to him, to bring it into the 21st Century with modern technology.
The one above it looks pretty good for details, and I'll use the model for textures and ask for help on lighting the night time scene.
Need a good nights sleep now, you lot are too good at getting information. I'm cream crackered. Catch you all tomorrow.
Jane
xxxxxx
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 426
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
This is a blowup of the back of Dutfields Yard, don't think it makes it much clearer though.
And this is a fairly detailed map of Dutfields Yard. So you can see there is plenty of room around the back for the stables. I think I read somewhere that the printers was up the stairs, can't be sure though.
Phillip, while the Harold Furness drawings are brilliant, I am a bit cautious of some of them. Mitre Square for instance has a door by the murder spot and as we know that isn't true and Millers Court has window shutters. Still as you say they are superb illustration.
All the best
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1430
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
This is wonderful!Better than any cinema crime reconstruction on location in Prague or wherever.Fantastic!Can"t wait!!!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
Jane can check this perhaps for herself tomorrow but I think looking at your map and at the enlargement,the printing must have been done in the Forge which would almost certainly,even then,have been one of the oldest buildings in Whitechapel and,therefore made of Stone,which the buildings of the Arbeter Feint Print Shop were.I have read that several times actually.The building with the stairs to me looks as though it is made of wood-and is clearer to see thanks to your enlargement.
I used to live next to an old Whitewashed Forge
and it too was made of stone and dated back to before 1790.Its still there ,used as a garage now!
I still think that the photograph you put on the thread some time ago that you took of Wood"s Buildings 15 years ago and that Chris Scott reprocessed,making it even clearer, took some beating for derelict poetry reeking with evil!!!
Best Natsx |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
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Rob -
I can't excuse the Mitre Square error in the Furness, but it is possible the Miller's Court one could be an understandable error?
How do we know that by 1903 it didn't have shutters?
I think I have just been swayed by how accurate his George Yard Buildings representation was. I had always imagined the interior to be quite different - a wide, open staircase and had presumed the Furness would be wrong. Just amazed to see the truth. Here's the evidence for you all :
 
So there! I've always had a fondness for this FAMOUS CRIMES cover as that's exactly the type of costume I wear on my walks (Crow, not Tabram).
By the way, this same boy is in the photo of the demolition of Durward Street at the same time in 1972. Does anyone know the history of these shots?
PHILIP (over 100 posts now - not bad in 4 days!!!)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 270
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
|
WOW,
I just stumbled on this amazing thread.
Jane...thank you for your awesome effort on the pics and reconstructions. This is the best thread on these boards in a long long time. I will be looking forward to seeing more of your work.
Glenn....Whats up ol' boy? How the hell are ya?
Paul
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2815
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:40 pm: |
|
Paul!
Hey there, man!
How's it hanging? Long time no see.
Yes, I agree, Jane's threads are indeed the best ones seen here in a long time.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 104
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
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What about me then? 
You're just prejudiced because I'm not an artist.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2816
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
|
Oh sorry, Hutch.
Seriously.
Thanks to people like you, Phil Hill and Jane these Boards have actually come to life again after a very long dull period. I actually thought the site was dead.
Hats off to you all, and I mean it!
Just one problem... just as I had nearly finished my cold turkey... I have become addicted again thanks to you guys...
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 13, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 271
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:44 pm: |
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Phil,
I agree with Glenn.....My humble apologies for not thanking you also. Your contributions are also very impressive and enjoyable. You both have given new life to the Casebook....which...
I too, thought was slowly dying. Ive been reading and participating on these boards for several years now and you and Jane are a very welcome addition to our little group.
Jane...would it be possible to make a recreation of the Inside of MJK's room? Berner street is my favorite crime scene, but I think it would be cool to see what Kelly's room looked like....other than the pics that are already out there. Anyway, thanks again to Phil and Jane. Keep up the great work.
Paul
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1497
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:37 am: |
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Glenn, Paul,
"I actually thought the site was dead"
You both have given new life to the Casebook....which...I too, thought was slowly dying
WHAT?? Are you two mad?? As it stands today, this site has newspaper reports from all over the world from various periods, excellent dissertations, contributions from experts and authors, various links to other information, maps.....need I go on? Cos I could you know.
As the message boards go yeah, a little lax but whos to blame for that. You two are, I am, we are. Its what we put into it and if we fail to do that then we have no one else to blame.
So quit bitchin.....youse dont know how lucky you are !
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 428
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 4:34 am: |
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Hi Phillip
"How do we know by that by 1903 [Millers Court]it didn't have shutters?"
True, I'll let you have that one  . There's a small possibility that I may be able to supply an answer to that one soon.
The photos of the landing and the Durward Street demolition were taken by Winston G. Ramsey for his book "The East End then and Now". I believe the boy is his son, not 100% certain, but a relation anyway.
All the best
Rob
P.S I'm glad you mentioned it Crow's costume you wear. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2817
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:01 am: |
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Monty,
"WHAT?? Are you two mad?? As it stands today, this site has newspaper reports from all over the world from various periods, excellent dissertations, contributions from experts and authors, various links to other information, maps.....need I go on? Cos I could you know"
I was referring to the message Boards -- naturally! Not the huge piles of research material on the site itself.
For a number of months nothing much was happening on the Boards, really. Except for on the watch/diary threads as usual (which makes no difference to me). At some point you simply need new people that can contribute with completely new material in their own way if things will come to life again, while we who have been here for a while are just grinding the same old stuff (which pretty much also leaves me without a possibility to contribute, since I am hardly expert enough to go fiddling into small obscure details or come up with new angles).
I need new fuel in order to keep my interest alive, and that new fuel is new people with fresh angles and contributions.
Of course this webiste has an incredible body of material (we all know that), so that is not what I meant, but since I am not indulging in any serious research of my own for the time being, that is really not the point. I am speaking of the message Boards.
I do feel were was a slow period of status quo for quite some time until these new members entered here. And it is not a strange thing, really; there will always be highlights and down periods -- and every message board has its periods with less and more activity. Therefore new people with new fascinating stuff are essential.
So lighten up, brother.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 14, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1498
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:25 am: |
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Glenn,
Be clearer then Sister!
Talking of message boards I think your craving for Newbies as a source of inspiration is saddening. Why do you need stimulating?
I find Newbies tend to tread over old stuff so fresh blood isnt always the way to go.
Talented fresh Newbie stuff, now thats the fckunig business mate. I cite the 2 Phils (Hill and Hutchinson) and obviously Janes artistic contributions bring a 'life' to this story. I feel visuals are just an important subject as case matter.
That said...and as I mentioned before, relying on new fuel provided by others to feed your interest surprises me.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2818
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
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Monty,
"I find Newbies tend to tread over old stuff so fresh blood isnt always the way to go."
Yes, and they are in a majority, but those are not the ones I refer to.
"Talented fresh Newbie stuff, now thats the fckunig business mate. I cite the 2 Phils (Hill and Hutchinson) and obviously Janes artistic contributions bring a 'life' to this story. I feel visuals are just an important subject as case matter."
Exactly. I agree and in essence my whole point.
"That said...and as I mentioned before, relying on new fuel provided by others to feed your interest surprises me."
We all need stimulating inputs from others or from external sources, Monty, unless you live in your own personal cheese bowl. That goes for everything in life.
Not just message boards or the Casebook site. 
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:51 am: |
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Glenn,
We all need stimulating inputs from others or from external sources, Monty, unless you live in your own personal cheese bowl. That goes for everything in life.
Not just message boards or the Casebook site.
Yeah, but I dont rely on them.
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
|
Well,
It seems I can't go to bed anymore, too much happens while I'm away! I read the posts this morning and felt really guilty. Maybe if I put my two penneth in I'll feel better.
I was reading the message boards for goodness knows how long before I plucked up courage to jump in, and I'm sure there are so many other people out there doing the same, going back over the old threads and just reading and reading so that they feel confident enough to post themselves. Many like me might be worried about posting until they know enough to contribute meaningfully. You (plural) gave me the confidence to even attempt these pictures. I would never have done any of them if it hadn't been for you lovely lot - and you didn't even know you were helping me then!
Although the boards might have slowed down lately, there is so much in the way of information on them you could read for years without getting bored, and more importantly you can feel that you are part of a community.
Even if a person just puts one post up, they are given something to others. This is an amazing site, full of amazing people!
I've actually been housebound for eighteen months and if it weren't for his site I would have gone completely crackers. I actually felt that I had no chance of ever doing anything worthwhile ever again. Instead I have had more fun and excitement in the last couple of weeks than for absolutely ages! I am even on the mend now - couldn't be anything to do with the fact that I have started thinking positive again could it?
I know Glen didn't mean anything negative by his comments, he knows it's a wonderful site, everyone knows it's a wonderful site. The enthusiasm and kindness you've all shown recently proves that.
Monty, we are very lucky -I've always read your posts with great relish. The site was never dead, only regrouping for it's next assault! I bet we are about to be bombarded by all sorts of stuff, loads of people out there who were planning blitzkreigs (is that spelt right?) but just waiting for the right time to pounce!
Right feel a bit better now.
I have been tossing and turning all night anyway wondering which I should do next. Good job I can work fast! I'm so excited by all the new information. Doesn't that prove what a brilliant site this is?
I'm going to post seperate messages to cover other topics because otherwise I'll get confused.
big hugs to all
Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2819
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:05 am: |
|
Monty,
"Yeah, but I dont rely on them."
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2820
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:11 am: |
|
Jane!
You indeed can work fast. I simply don't understand how you do it. OK, you're a professional, but still...
Well, it seems like you're having fun indeed yourself as well.
I do look forward to your interpretation of Dutfield's yard. That place is very much a white spot, very seldom portrayed in a detailed serious manner and no photo seems to exists from the yard and passage itself, only from Berner Street, so that is something that will be very useful for future research.
All the best
G. Andersson, author
Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 14, 2005)
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Jane
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:28 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Thank you so much for posting the map and the blow up, they are really useful and I think a lot of others will find them so too. I never realised that the yard was that shape, duh!!!!
Already got cogs turning. I can see at a glance now where everything thing was. Brill!
Hi Natalie,
Getting the the stone mason's gear out already. I think I can see where it needs to go, might come back on that one.
Hi Philip, my treasure, You have just saved me a load of work yet again. How many books have you go for goodness sake? Can you actually get into your abode or are you forced to climb over tomes every time you go in? I am going to do George's Yard at some point as I do feel that Martha Tabram has to be at least included in research, whether or not she was a victim. I'm still totally on the fence with it, because there are good points on each side. (I'd never hang myself!) But I'd feel guilty not including her.
Hi Paul,
Thank you so much for your comments. I have to say though, that it's actually others that are doing most of the work, I am just putting their research down or rather up on screen.
I can't find the post again that asked about Mary Kelly's room interior, but I have actually got to the twiddling stage on it. I'm just deciding how to deal with it exactly. I think that I will go for candlelit, but empty. I don't want to get too morbid or freaky, just give the right atmosphere. I think that's probably the way to go. I might be able to get it up by tonight, if not tomorrow, because I still have to do a bit of thinking on Dutfield's yard anyway.
That's it I think.
See what a good girl I am, I could have done all those on seperate posts to get my rank up and I didn't Philip..... love yer!
you're definitely not going to post any more pics now are you?
love to all
Jane
xxxxx |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
|
I only just found the kind comments posted on this fascinating thread.
If I may return the compliment, it is people like Glenn, Monty, Richard, Robert, Mags, Natalie (and other's) who's contributions make me want to contribute. I take my hats of to you all for your insights, knowledge and efforts. While people like you are around and prepared to welcome newcomers like myself, Casebook's message boards will be OK. Your reception and receptivity have quickly made you feel like friends.
(Actually, I lie - as you know it was Kitty who really made me feel welcome!!  )
Jane - your efforts are much appreciated. Thanks too to those who have provided illustrations which i do not remember seeing before - especially the site of GYB?Tabram killing and the rear of Dutfield's Yard - excellent stuff.
Thanks again to all,
Phil |
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