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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:11 pm: | 
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Thanks Glen,
You are quite right, my perspectives are really dreadful, I have never, ever been able to suss it out properly, but I can correct that easily. I can see what you mean. I think it was because I put the WC in first and it threw me. My excuse and I'm sticking to it. I'm going to blame my husband as well, because he said it looked alright!
I'll wait until I get some more feedback (if anyone is kind enough to help) and then do a corrected version.
Jane
xxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2783
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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Jane,
Don't put yourself down -- you're an excellent artist.
I never said your perspectives were "dreadful" (and they sure haven't been on your other pictures)... 
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3852
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Jane, I like both of these. I think I prefer the one with the WC as making it look a bit more claustrophobic.
And thanks for not putting a letterbox on the WC.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 418
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Hi Jane
The wall to the right of Marys windows I believe is a high brick wall. if you look at the sloping roof there is a chimney coming out of it and follow the top there looks like a high wall. I understand where you are coming from with the fence but with all the smoke and debris it is hard to tell even the perspective. It may be part of the demolished buildings in the court.
Enjoy your Sherry it is well earned.
All the best
Rob
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
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I now have a sherry and I can see things much more clearly.
Hi Glen,
My husband agreed with the perspective thing. I thumped him one, because I remembered that I did actually have it more foreshortened and he came in from the pub, pi eyed and told me it was all wrong and made me pull it about. That will teach me! He is actually a much better artist than me, so I forgive him. He was having a bad night! ( or a good one, depending on which way you look at it.)
Hi Robert, (Linford) Thanks for giving me a laugh about the letter box. I used some door catalogues for reference and just didn't think. Dosey woman!
Hi other Robert,
Thanks, I'll sleep on that one and see how I can make it work.
Time for bed,
Best wishes
Jane
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 7:36 pm: |
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Hi Jane.
Concur with all above.
Except you being dreadful in any way.
I was of the impression that all plans except one (which was not to be relied upon) had the bins opposite Mary's window?
In regards to the WC, is this a matter of conjecture? If so, the obvious one to me would it would be in the far corner AFTER the bins, and for some reason I would just expect the door to be facing Mary's wall (actually, this makes sense - if it IS after the bins and in the far corner not only does it have 2 sides against walls, but the door MUST open opposite number 13 or else the door will be opening into the middle of the bins). What do you think?
I guess we aren't ever going to get a perfect representation, but your work is a damn close attempt!
One final thing - if you look at the photo of number 13 you will see that although there is a brick arc above Mary's door, it is almost flat and not arched like in the your artwork.
Promise you I'm only saying it because you seem to want to know!
Best wishes & admiration
PHILIP
PS : That's you in the beret. Not me. You're an artist. I'm not. Artist's archetypically wear berets. I think I better go now.
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 35
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
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A thought, Jane...
Is the 'thing' that you have been thinking about as a new train of thought anything to do with the water pump?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 6:34 am: |
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for the input. The WC is a puzzler and no mistake and quite important in the scheme of things. (Clue, think time of day she was killed controversy) As you say it is also quite important which way it faced and you may be quite right that it faced towards Mary's windows. I think though it might have been set back a bit more looking at the plan again, (if it was there at all). That part probably doesn't matter too much, but I like to get things spot on, because it might be useful to someone else.
I've put the plan on that I got the idea from. You'll see that the problem with it being too much further back is that there is a window in the wall directly behind it and directly opposite Mary's rear window.
We know that the pump yard has to be just over 12 feet front to back ( allowing for the thickness of the walls + Mary's room). The view I put up, as Glen rightly pointed out makes it look longer than it really was, (thanks Glen, because it makes a big difference to getting it right).
The row of tenements themselves seem to be set back a tiny bit, so if we say that the side wall with the dustbins was 12 feet.
If we allow say 3 feet gap at the back behind the loo for the window and a bit of wall, that would give us nine feet for the WC.
That does seem to be ample room for a loo to be set back a bit, but still face outwards. There is a point to all this I promise!
I don't think it matters too much which way it faced to tell you the truth.
I'll let you into why I thought that pump yard might be quite important later!
All the best
Jane
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 38
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:19 am: |
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Hi Jane - yes, you are quite right. I hang my head in shame. There is indeed a window in the gap there. I just don't get it why all the plans even put bins on them but don't bother with the lavvy. Another thought; could it possibly have been at the far end of Miller's Court? It's just a thought that all the plans seem to be detailed around number 13, but perhaps they didn't feel it necessary to put every nook and cranny in the rest of Miller's Court. If the bogs were at the end then that would explain why they aren't on the plan? What do you think? The more I think about this, the more likely it becomes.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2790
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:47 am: |
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Hi Hutch,
If I may throw in my two pence... I think the most plausible placement of the lavvy would be the house wall where Jane has already put it, namely on the open part of the court, on the opposite side of Mary Kelly's room, but maybe facing Kelly's room. My bet would otherwise be that it was attached to the outside wall (which was most common, like being attached to a court fence), where the elevated part of the ground is built up. But the placement of the pump makes this unlikely, if not impossible.
In my experience, lavvys were mainly facing the open places on the courtyards, perhaps due to sanitary conditions.
At the far end end of the narrow court seem to me too marrow and crowded, and too close to too many tenement houses, considering sanitary problems.
But I agree on, that if the loo was situated on the house wall opposite Mary's room (which I believe it might have been), it probably should have faced her (not us, if we look at Jane's picture), because the front of the lavatories mainly stood out from the wall it was attached. Well, just thinking out loud here.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 33
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
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Hi Philip,
Very good thoughts, which I had sort of thought myself from time to time. Especially if they put the dustbins on why didn't they put the loo?
The other things that swayed me a bit was drainage. I just thought that it might make more sense having it where there were already water pipes laid, i.e for the pump. Also having it near the bins sort of made sense. Tell you why......
I was born and bred within a few minutes walk of Spitalfields in a back alley behind the Kingsland Road and grew up in the 50's and 60's.(Obviously not on the cobbles, we did actually have a roof over our heads of sorts) The alley itself was a cul de sac and very similar indeed to Miller's Court in nature, mainly prostitutes lived there, very rough.
The houses all had outside loos in the backyard, 2 or 3 families sharing them. They were always located by the tap and the dustbins. I've never seen it otherwise. I suppose it doesn't matter too much anyway, the pump and the dustbins are enough to trigger a few bells in my head, the loo would have just been a bit more emphasis.
I'll leave it there for now, and see if anyone else has any info that we've missed.
Jane
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:21 am: |
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Suggestion then, Jane - put it against the far wall but mask it with dustbins - though you might have to find images of Victorian dustbins without letterboxes on them! (I wanted to put another clipart in here, but it won't upload - this is happening to me most of the time now - is it happening to anyone else?)
Hmm... Jane growing up in a place similar to Miller's Court, Glenn talking about 'his experience' of such places... is there something we are not being told here?
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:31 am: |
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Morning Glen, no sorry afternoon,
I think on reflection that it would be facing her room. (poor Mary, the sights she must have seen!) You may not have seen the post I just put up about why I thought it was in the pump yard, but I do think that the point you made about it being on an outside wall made sense and facing into the courtyard.
There is a point behind all this nit picking. Just going on from the post I put up above. Because the loo was outside, all of us had a bucket in the bedroom for night use and we would take it down first thing in the morning and slop out. (Great job!)
Even if the loo wasn't there, the traffic outside Mary's room from sun up for a few hours in the morning would have been considerable. Fetching water, putting the rubbish out and (going to the loo.) not to mention people coming and going through the entranceway. Even on Lord Mayor's day, they would have needed to do some of these things.
If (and it is a big if) Mary was still alive at that time in the morning, it does raise a few questions. What would Jack have made of all the comings and goings? Just a thought.
Even if she was killed in darkness, the gas light right outside Mary's door must have been a bit troublesome to him. It wouldn't have given out much light, but probably enough to make him wish it wasn't there.
I couldn't help but wonder as well if he made use of the water in the trough to clean up. It was probably a dark wood and would not have shown bloodied water. I presume it was generally just tipped down the drain in the normal course of events, athough I can't see him stopping to do the washing up!
Any other thoughts anyone?
best wishes Jane
By the way Richard and Leanne, I'm not Joe bashing I promise! Jack showed over and over again that a little thing like people milling about didn't boher him too much! He would probably enjoy the challenge! |
Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 35
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
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Quick one of the pics posting problem,
(try saying that in a hurry)
It may be that you are saving them as the wrong type of Jpg. Did it myself last night, but I was tiddly.
Make sure they are saved as Progressive and not Baseline as they won't go up. One is e-mailable and the other not.
Good idea about the dustbins, it would cover a multitude of sins and people could make their own mind up! Doing it as we speak!
Jane
xxxxxx
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 43
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:50 am: |
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Hi Jane - no problem posting jpegs; it is the icons you upload that are provided by the site (the little smileys etc) that most of the time won't work. You click on them and it resets to the top of the clipart list without uploading the code to your message.
PHILIP
(As if you didn't have enough to deal with!)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 36
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Here's the corrected scene of the pump yard, at night'
WC set back and facing window, thanks Glen
dustbins in front , thanks Philip, wall at back and NO LETTERBOXES!
If you look closely you might just see that Mary's door is ever so slightly open, I think Jack is about to come out..........
sweet dreams
Jane
xxxxxxx
I'll post a small montage of all the corrected views tomorrow. Then I'll get on with Dutfield's Yard.
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 37
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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I'm afraid it's come up a bit light, it's lost some of the shadows and spookiness, sorry.
Jane
xxxxxx |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2793
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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Jane!!!!
Hahaha! Wonderful! You're a wizard!
That was indeed worth waiting for (as usual).
By the way, I really like those dirty stains on the walls as you do on every picture. It really brings an element of realism to it all.
And again: what an air of mystery.
Congratulations. Great stuff.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3859
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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That's really nice, Jane.
Do not be alarmed : Jack's only coming out to find out why the toilet keeps moving.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2795
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Robert,
I think it is to check the number of the building again (as a reference to Richard's 39 theory).
You know, after the murder, it just strikes him... Aw rats...13??!!! This isn't Nr 39...????? 
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 44
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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Glenn - hate to disappoint you (will answer your e-mails later tonight) but 3 x 13 is 39 and the 3 is relevant as it is the number that appears in both 13 and 39 (by the way, I don't believe in any of that).
Jane - smashing! This is more how I imagined it. What joy. And Glenn is right; I'm sure we ALL appreciate your dirty stains. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3860
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:06 pm: |
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Glenn, whereupon he calls to the mutilated Mary "Sorry, wrong number" and briskly shuts the door.
Bit tough on Mary....
Robert |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 464
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Jane, they are wonderful. I get the full ambiance looking -- the creeps! Spryder, you have to do something permanent with these. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1254
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Hi Guys,
The 39 is only a Theory, not a fact.
Jane.
Your interior pictures of millers court are fantastic, the First picture showing the shadowery figure at the bottom of the passage is the most accurate in my opinion , a couple of points to mention .
The passage way is to wide , one had to walk almost sideways to gain access to the court, considering the court was only small it appears to be too much space availible, also i could be wrong here so dont quote me , but wasnt there a door leading to the upper floor occupied By Mrs Prater, to the left of kellys room?.
The reference to Kellys room has been described as the second door on the right...
Good work all the same .
Richard. |
Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 38
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for the input. Looking at the source pictures again, you are right, the passage is a bit too wide, but easily corrected. I don't think it's too much, just needs a shave off of it.
I did chuckle though, imagining Jack walking crab like along it! I hope he was a little bloke and not Mr broad shoulders.
I think you're right about it being 'opened out' a bit too much, and not claustrophobic enough.I should be able to tweek that a bit by tomorrow and I'll post a montage of the scenes to see if they're better. I'm having nightmares trying to remember everything! I do think it does need a more oppressive feel. My husband keeps telling me not to make it look too much like a Cornish village, hence the stains!
I think you are probably right about the door leading to Mrs Prater's as well, but I think that it could be hidden in the shadow. For the sake of real accuracy I should at least show a hint of it. Logically she must have got up there somehow, unless she had a hover board!
The main thing is it might be important to someones theories so I have to get it right.
By the way, the 39 theory is fascinating. If I were Joe and your were prosecuting I would be a bit worried!
All the best
Jane
xxxxxxx
See what I mean about the shadow hiding the other door? I'll twiddle with contrast and see if I can spot it.
The 2nd pic does show that the whole middle bit is a bit too wide. Sorted! |
George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 45
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Jane - I am willing to stand corrected, but Elizabeth Prater lived at number 20 above Mary. There WAS no 20 Miller's Court; number 20 was number 20 of 26 Dorset Street. People think because she was in the room above MJK then she was a resident of Miller's Court. Surely her access would have been via number 26? I know the plans show a staircase in that far corner close to 13 at the back of number 26, but wouldn't that be for the benefit of the plan, showing how Prater got up to her room, rather than it being an accessible staircase FROM the alleyway?
All I have read (I have about 40 books, so I am well-read but no genius) says 13 was the first room on the right. Now, it says it was the first ROOM; I would expect that to mean the first door - but it is just possible that there was a DOOR IN the alleyway itself for the upstairs of number 26 (but I would have to ask myself why put in an extra door just for access to the upstairs room at the back when there would be access via the main door in number 26 at the front?).
I have looked very closely at my own saved larger jpeg of the photo of number 13, and it is inconclusive. It appears there could well be a small niche next to Mary's room, but we know there was 10 feet from that point to the end of her room and this niche looks too close for that.
Bloody Hell, this is getting complicated!
Richard : No offence! I'm new to this and if I can make a joke of something I usually do. 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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George Hutchinson
Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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By the way, I have just had a 'comedy moment'; to the Benny Hill theme, Jack tries to get his long-bladed knife through the narrow alleyway but he holds it across it's length and it won't fit through!
Also, everyone, is it this other door drawn in the archway that would give access to the upstairs room on the left-hand side of the court?
PHILIP
PS : Why do I always put one post directly after another?
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1829
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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Jane
I love 'em especially the Millers court night scene!!!!
Keep going!
....Must get going here again now....get out of that book and back onto canvas!!!
Suzi x |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3861
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:59 am: |
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Jane, as you're extremely keen on accuracy, I'll just raise one small point : you have a bit of firelight shining through the centre of the smaller window in your night scene. But if the pilot coat was hanging over the window, would this light have been able to get through?
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2801
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:36 am: |
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Oh no please, Robert,
Don't let her take out the light in one of the windows.
Accuracy is one thing; making a picture work is another. I think in a night scene there should be some room for aesthetichal factors and elaborations unless the details produces errors on the really vital stuff. I think that one is to take things too far, but that's just me. A night scene is just as much about creating atmosphere.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3862
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:28 am: |
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Yes, Glenn, well I was originally praising Jane's pictures for their artistic qualities, which of course I still do. But when Jane said that she wanted to get everything as accurate as possible, I thought I'd chip in with the pilot coat.
Don't gaze at the pictures too long, Glenn. You might find them subtly changing, or find yourself being drawn in through the door (lots of horror stories with this theme).
Robert |
George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 52
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:08 am: |
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Have to say, I agree with Robert here. It is subjective of course - but the whole point of all our comments has been to make sure Jane can get this as right as possible. It's something I, in my relative ignorance, would not have known - maybe chinks of light espacing from the sides of the coat (it wouldn't have completely filled the whole window space, surely?) would placate both sides?
By the way - gutted! I checked my 1998 video of the murder sites last night. I NEVER FILMED THE DEMOLITION OF OLD MONTAGUE STREET! I remember standing there for ages and watching it, but I only filmed the murder sites! I am hugely disappointed.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 39
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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Hi Suzi,
I'm so glad you're painting again. Please, please post them up as soon as you can. You can let them dry first though! Can we have some of your lovely atmospheric stuff that makes your spine tingle?
Now boys, this is getting silly. You are right though, it's a daft thing in itself, but the light business is very pertinent. The witness reports about seeing lights etc make quite a lot of difference to what might have actually happened that night. The thing I keep coming back to is was the candle alight or not? This could make so much difference when it comes to narrowing down suspects. The clothes in the fireplace have always had me thinking round in circles.
I honestly don't know what to do, because it does look better with two windows lit, but the coat would have blocked out the light. Tell you what, how about this scene was set just before he hung the coat up! Mary was just putting the kettle on for a cup of tea!
Yes that'll do. I'll have to close the door though, otherwise I'lll have everyone posting and saying they know how Jack got in!
lots of love to all
Jane
xxxxxx |
Robert J. McLaughlin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 2:13 am: |
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This is more information about Miller's Court that originally comes from Adrian Phypers (Viper). Hope it's of use to you, Jane. Keep up the excellent work.
Robert
Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report for 1878, concerning the Quarter ended 28th September that year.
OVERCROWDING IN A SCHOOL ROOM.
The Inspector, Mr. WRACK, on visiting the houses in Miller’s-court, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, on the 11th September, found that the ground-floor room of No. 6, was used as a school-room during the day and as a sleeping-room at night. At the time of his visit there were 19 persons in the room, namely, 17 children, all under 7 years of age, and the schoolmaster and his wife.
The dimensions of this room were 12 x 12 x 8 [feet], giving only about 60 cubic feet for each person.
The court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 7 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin, both of which are within a few feet of the school-room in question.
On the following day, accompanied by the Inspector, I visited the school, and informed the schoolmaster of the unfitness of the place for a school, and I intimated to him that the room could not be allowed to be so occupied; and I advised him to get a larger room in a healthier locality. The schoolmaster acted upon my advice and removed from the court two days afterwards.
I have had to bring under the notice of the Board, from time to time, several cases of school-rooms similarly overcrowded, and in no instance have I been obliged to take legal proceedings against the occupier, the nuisance being either abated by reducing the number of children attending the school, or by the occupier finding a larger and more commodious room. |
d g cornelius
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:18 am: |
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To most excellent Sgt Jane and her capable team of advisors:
Sorry to weigh in with too little too late, but I am only now discovering your excellent efforts.
Regarding the configuration of the Dorset Street house: Mr Clack's interpretative sketch of the rear seems to get it right. The Dorset Street house was four stories tall. The front and rear brick walls rose three stories, one story taller than the Miller's Court annex. The fourth story, or third floor in British parlance, had a mostly glazed front to the street, set back a few feet behind the parapet of the brick front, and radically foreshortened in the police sketch. These setback glazed attic rooms were characteristic to Spitalfields, serving as work spaces for weaving and dyeing.
To the rear, the fourth story/third floor occupied a sloping or mansard roof, as Mr Clack and everyone else appears to have picked up. The vertical feature separating the mansards of the two adjoining houses is apparently a brick firestop, which projects upwards and outwards some inches from the plane of the mansards. Whether or not there was also a rainwater leader at this location is a very good point; it is certainly the most logical location for one.
The good Sergeant shows the eave feature at the top of the two-story Miller's Court ell returning and continuing along the rear wall of the Dorset Street house. This is unlikely; it more probably died into the wall.
Now, the color of the brickwork, which is a matter of chronology as well as economy. Red brick is characteristic of many of the houses in the neighborhood, which were constructed in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. In the second half of the eighteenth and most of the 19th centuries, London stocks were the common material for urban construction. London stocks are yellow-ochre when clean and progressively greyer to black when dirty. I am having difficulty guessing the age of the Dorset and Miller buildings, especially since the demo photo shows the window sashes--which are the best indicator of period--removed. Offhand, however, the broad arches and wide openings of the Miller's Court frontage at least look later to me, suggesting we might be into London stock times. And this would be consistent with the ground floor whitewash that the Sergeant appears to be correctly indicating along the Miller's Court and Dorset rear walls, which could indicate a desperate attempt to brighten a pitch-black dirty London stock alleyway.
Sorry to fire hastily and randomly; more studied considerations, retractions, and apologies may follow in the light of day.
with respectful best wishes,
D G Cornelius,
pedantically posturing architectural historian.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2802
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
"Now boys, this is getting silly. You are right though, it's a daft thing in itself, but the light business is very pertinent. The witness reports about seeing lights etc make quite a lot of difference to what might have actually happened that night. The thing I keep coming back to is was the candle alight or not? This could make so much difference when it comes to narrowing down suspects. The clothes in the fireplace have always had me thinking round in circles.
I honestly don't know what to do, because it does look better with two windows lit, but the coat would have blocked out the light. Tell you what, how about this scene was set just before he hung the coat up!"
I am with you on this one. Absolutely. This is exactly what I meant.
I mean, it's up to our own imagination to judge WHICH time in the course of events that is depicted, and WHAT is going on there. Who says it absolutely has to depict the night of the murder? Architecural stuff is one thing, that must be as correct as possible, and as long as that element is correct (which is not easy in itself), that will have to do. If Jane in addition also should take special conditions on the nights of the murders in consideration while creating a scene (details we have unconvicing information about anyway and that many of us can't even agree on), the whole ting will be a tough job, to say the least. Architecture is architecture -- full stop.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:20 pm: |
|
Ahhhhh!!
That blooming loo! Thanks Robert for pointing out that it was at the other end of the court. That's settled it at last and not just one loo but three whole loos! and they couldn't even wash their hands afterwards, no wonder there was so much dysentry.
All those who had it at that end can take that smug look off of their faces! So no loo, thank goodness I hadn't posted the day time scene with it in yet.
Thank you to d g Cornelius, sorry don't know your first name. I did have a gut feeling it might be yellow brick, turned filthy, because the house I grew up in at the back of the Kingsland Road was built in 188? and was yellow brick. That doesn't really matter that much, I can just really dirty it up, so no problem.
I got a bit lost on the technicalities, I still struggle with Lego, but I don't think I did anything drastically wrong by the sound of it.
I'm getting psychotic, everywhere I go now, I'm looking at bricks and water stains to see if I can copy them. I hope you lot will chip in for the shrink's bill.
lots of love
Jane
xxxxxx
I'm just starting on Dutfield's yard, because I know there is a bit of debate (bit????) about whether Liz was dragged into the yard, went there of her own accord or how dark it was etc.,
I feel a nightmare coming on, please don't desert me on Berner Street, I think I'm going to need all the help I can get!
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
|
Jane : Me? Smug? Too damn right! Not against yourself, but all the others who know so much more than I! It's nice to get one up on the higher grades once in a while (put the kettle on, Glenn...)
Robert : I have indeed seen that report several times but forgot it was so well detailed. Nice to see you on here! Any news on your book? You've got me down for one, but I'd be happy to be down for more!
D G : Wow! Nice posting! You really know your stuff, don't you?!
Glenn & Jane : Let's just be done with it then and have Miller's Court on the night of the 9th when the windows can all be boarded up! 
PHILIP (90% smug - 10% missing due to brick colour)
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:56 pm: |
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Hi Jane,
I have started to "visit" your Miller"s Court Scene just to enjoy the atmosphere you have created!I "m not too bothered about how dirty it was because the night casts a mysterious light over these old court yards and alleyways.But this is just great-you can just sit back, relax, and enjoy the atmosphere[and play the detective inside the lovely backdrops!
Thankyou!
Natalie
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2806
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
|
Hi Jane,
Aw rats... so the loos were actually at the other end of the court????
Not the most sanitary decision...
Worst of all, I have actually read that piece delivered by mr. McLaughlin, but I had totally forgotten about it.
"I'm getting psychotic, everywhere I go now, I'm looking at bricks and water stains to see if I can copy them. I hope you lot will chip in for the shrink's bill."
Well, we'll do our best, but we better take care of our own first -- they have piled up... 
Hutch, never mind the kettle; I have just poured myself another glass of cognac as we speak... God, I needed that....
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Jane
Sergeant
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 42
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
|
Hi All,
I'll post a montage of Miller's Court tomorrow, got a bit snowed under today. I've found some pretty good written info on Dutfields yard, but I'll have to sit and try and visualize it for a bit to get the 'feel' of it. I don't know how easy it's going to be, but I'm intrigued myself.
I'm also going to do the victims in situ, in each of the crime scenes, so that people can hopefully see more easily how they were found. I find it very hard to picture it from written reports, so it will be interesting to see how it works out.
Just had my sherry, totally mental day, glad to get to bed!
catch you all later
Jane
xxxxxxx
ps Philip, how come you've overtaken me on posts? I was in front of you a while back. Do you sleep?
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Jane - do you have William Stewart's book? I only have a photocopy as orignals cost hundreds, but he made pretty good models of the murder sites and I can send you a jpeg of his mock-up of Dutfields Yard (this book is definitely out of copyright and I could, if I wanted, put a facsimile on the market). You got access to the Chapman & Stride impressions yet? I've yet to check. Stewart also did impressions of the victims (not in the Rory Bremner way!) and these are also in the books - but they are terrible!
No - I don't ever sleep - these boards get active in the early hours when America has its evenings! As I have only had 3 evenings work doing Ripper tours in 3 weeks (I have 6 jobs, but the rest are currently out of season), I spend a lot of time on the PC, going to bed about 4am and getting up about midday!
By the way, SERGEANT, get your DETECTIVE SERGEANT a cup of tea! 
Glenn - you are exempt as I've nearly finished your video (about a dozen items on it, though not the 2 you ask for as extras as I don't have them at my flat) and I was right about the toilets and you were wrong, so today I have been given Royal Dispensation to ignore the higher ranks! 
By the way, when you finally see THE LONDON NOBODY KNOWS, this image will be familiar to you at the very end of it : 
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2807
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:37 pm: |
|
Hey Hutch!
OK great.
Yep, you were right about the toilets, so you don't have to bring my any coffee next week.
I got a call from Queen Victoria, so you have been given some temporary priviligues.
No raise, though.
I'll look forward to the videos, Hutch.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 202
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Jane,
I want to thank you for bringing Millers (Heh! almost typed Millar's) Ct to light, so to speak. Awesome! Keep at it, girl, and keep up with the sherry. Anyone knows that an artist can only work under the influence, right?
However, me being a teetotaler, can only ask Philip to bring me a much needed cup of tea. (I'd ask Glenn, but he'd probably yell at me and suggest I know my superiors better!)
Anyway, woman, keep us up to visual form, okay!
Bestest,
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 69
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
|
Lyn - get with the program!
(An irrelevance, but I too am teetotal).
I have been excused tea-boy duties for a week by phone call from no less a personage than Good Queen Vicky herself - she phoned Glenn to give me a week off as I was right about there being no toilets next to Mary's room and he being wrong (rub it in, why don't I?) Hee hee hee!!!
Besides, if you look you will see I am now DETECTIVE Sergeant and there's a few people below me! Jane is also excused as she's an 'artistic' type! 
Besides - it is 1am here in the UK (this is where it all happened, don't y'know - I see the sites SO often - OOH, I'M SUCH A ROTTER AIN'T I?) and you have still got part of an evening to go across that big ole pond.
In short, Lyn - make your own tea!
PHILIP - Jester to the court of Jack
PS : I have a really funny thing to tell you all which I keep forgetting! There is a new building going up on the corner of Hanbury Street and Commercial Street (on the north side) - I kid you not, it has a huge great covering on it and it's going to be called JACK'S PLACE! How cool is that?!
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 203
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
|
Philip,
In short, Lyn - make your own tea!
I'll be buggered if I will! So there! I haven't just posted 200 posts of complete shi** to be told to get my own tea! NO! Don't forget, Phil, I am woman. I have a mission! To be pandered on!
Forget what Queen Victoria said.. we all know she wasn't in her right mind after Albert passed away.
So.... my tea is getting mighty cold here... On the double, my good man!
Bestest,
Lyn (ma'am to the likes of you! )
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
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George Hutchinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Philip
Post Number: 71
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Yeah? YEAH? YEAH?
Well, I'm going to tell Glenn about you, you bully. And he'll sort you out - you see if he doesn't! They have a different way in Sweden, you know! Sort of like here in England but a bit more... Swedish. 
You're just throwing your status around because you're jealous that I live here and you don't. 
Just a bit of an ego-boost for me whilst you're trying to make me feel so inferior 'Inn-Spectre'...
Have a click onto this link and find out why your very own George is the best damn Ripper guide in the world : http://goeurope.about.com/od/londo1/fr/ripper_tour.htm
PHILIP 
Erm... isn't it time we said something about Miller's Court now?
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2808
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:04 am: |
|
"Well, I'm going to tell Glenn about you, you bully. And he'll sort you out - you see if he doesn't! They have a different way in Sweden, you know! Sort of like here in England but a bit more... Swedish."
Did somebody beam me up... ? 
All the best
G. Anderson, crime historian,
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1494
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:52 am: |
|
Phil, Lyn,
As Assistant Commissioner I order both of you to clean my car, fetch my suit from the dry cleaners, polish my shoes and get me a cup of tea pronto!!
Failure to do so will result in removal of stripes and a lifetime of advertising window locks and awnings with yer pet dog.
Now shut yer bletheriing an get on with it!
Monty
"I tell you I didnt do it cos I wasnt there, so dont blame me it just isnt fair....now pass the blame and dont blame me..."- John Pizer
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:14 am: |
|
And while you're at it........LESS ice in the G and T too!!!!
Suzi
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