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Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 95
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | 
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G, please stop being an opportunist. My ideas and evidence is super, I'm just not going to advertise it here, that's all. I do appreciate that causes some people intense frustration but it can't be helped. If you're using this board to advertise yourself as a professional, you should accept that people have different views, evidence and conclusions.
I don't have any particular views on America, as it happens. However, it seems that due to being misinformed, alot of Americans doubt that a conspiracy existed in London. Therefore , they're misadvised, and it's quite true that alot of people on these boards have been stuck in a rut and going nowhere, due to being misinformed. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:06 pm: |
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So... I am an opportunist just because I want answers...? OK, I can settle with that.
And no, I am not forcing you to display any information or evidence. That is not what this question was about. The question concerned your previous generalisations about Americans, who appears to be wrong, although you won't admit it.
But OK, you'r avoiding the issue.
Never mind, then. It's a waste of time.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 96
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:08 pm: |
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Yes, G, I'm not really interested in justifying myself to you. I wondered how long it would take for the penny to drop. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2587
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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Well, K, if you don't want to answer any questions or reply on comments, then people will soon find it quite pointless to discuss any issue with you.
Just look at "your own" thread about the conspiracy. You don't approve of any post that critically challenges or disproves the conspiracy theories, only those that says the things you want. You want to control the discussions in a direction that suits you. That is not how it works.
Your interpretation of a discussion is where everyone agrees with you and where you can test your own theories on people. That is indeed weird and calculating Board behaviour.
Don't worry, I am finished with you from now on, madame. My penny dropped down a long time ago; I am still waiting for yours.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 100
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 3:11 pm: |
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Glenn, I'm really not interested.
Anyone who wants to look at a thread discussing whether there's any evidence for or against a conspiracy , what, and how it all adds up, if it does! is welcome on that board. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 5:25 pm: |
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Glenn...? What happened to "G"?
Am I dreaming?
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 157
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 7:36 pm: |
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Andrew (Gable),
So sorry.. I've only just now seen your post. Guess it got swamped by everyone else's!
Small world with your name being Millar -- I'm related to Millars. Are you Scottish?
Actually, I'm English. But the Millars in my line descend from Poland, if what I've been told is correct. As you say, small world!
Any more thoughts on Tumblety?
Best,
Lyn |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:59 pm: |
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Kity,
Have you had a look at 'Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders' in the Dissertations section? A?R is a theory that advances perspective on the case evidence, uses critical thinking, and includes a private conspiracy.
David
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 2:26 pm: |
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Kitty - the word "discuss" implies two sides. I agree with Glenn that your interpretation has only one side.
You are really a control freak(please emphasise whicever word you choose).
However, I'll say two things:
a) I doubt many people are actually interested in the theory or evidence that you dare not post, since most of us will have encountered a stack of JtR books all promising revelations and enlightenment, and soon being exposed as ill-researched drivel. until you prove otherwise, I place your self-proclaimed theory in that category. So no "intense frustration" here - sorry.
b) it seems to me that if Americans are not convinced by the conspiracy theory then they are as well-informed and pereceptive as i always find them to be. They are NOT ill-advised simply because you claim something - without providing a shred of supporting evidence, OR - more important - ever providing a single fact in a post.
FOLKS - have you noticed that Kitty never ventures a view, but always (parasite like) draws on what others say - at least when they support her view. Look back over her posts and their context and you'll see.
I hope very soon to register on this site, Kitty, and my mission in part will continue to be to expose you for the shameless charalatan you clearly are, bereft of ideas, originality, education or scholarship (not to mention good manners).
Glenn, I think is wiser than I, but I see a duty to others here to challenge you at every step with facts, and questions. I'll enjoy it. Others may begin to understand that you never answer them.
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 5:49 pm: |
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Of course you're perfectly right,Phil. Kitty is afraid of you and Glenn. She's out on the playground and if you won't play the game the way she wants she will not only take the ball and go home, she'll tell you that you must leave as well.
My inpression is that Kitty has read a book--no scratch that--has seen a movie about JTR, and has decided to make her fortune from the case. Bereft of ideas and obviously ill eqipeed to gather information on her own, she comes here to pick the brains of others. She offers nothing yet trys to tease information out of people who have actually putting the WORK into research. "Hey--anyone have any new,creative exciting ideas? Post 'em here"
David Radka may well have the right idea, protecting his work.
Mags
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 12:55 am: |
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Hi all,
Kitty, you wrote:
"It's perfectly apparent that what I'm doing is opening up this challenge so that good people can think creatively.Not everyone subscribes to your ideas G ( and Dan, and Adam.) Why should they?
I don't think your stance on America ( I'm not anti American) has got alot to do with it, but I'm not going to bother arguing . If people want creative discussion, they can come on the conspiracy board, otherwise people can sulk about here."
"opening up this challenge so that good people can think creatively"? "If people want creative discussion" ??
Kitty, I went to this board you speak so highly of and spent ages typing out my reasons for disregarding the Royal Conspiracy, and the people in it (for which I did a person by person discussion of those involved in it), and what did I get from you?
A few lines explaining that no rants are allowed and it was supposed to be creative discussion.
Well what the hell more do you want? I've seen that thread and everyone, including myself, that's posted on it, to my knowledge has not received any evidence what so ever in favour of the Conspiracy from you, no counter-arguments from the arguments we provide from you, just turning your nose up in the air at what people write and still expecting us to keep posting things. We've done what you wanted, now it's your turn to give something back on there - what are YOUR reasonings about the Conspiracy? Why not tell us?
Maria, you wrote:
"If Druitt's note wasn't dated, then he could have said "since Friday" to point to that specific day (the day he was fired) as the reason for his suicide. If he had said "since yesterday," the reader would have no way of knowing when "yesterday" was and therefore the special reason for that day being the last straw."
That's very true. I don't know why he didn't just date it. It would make things a lot simpler. But then the question is this - Did Druitt committ suicide on the same day that he wrote the note, or did he just write it so he was prepared, and pondered for another day or something? I'd say the note was written on the same day he did it, but how can we be sure? In any case, Druitt did committ suicide somewhere between November 30 and December 5 (Or else his body would not likely have been so decomposed), so it makes sense to pick the date in the middle of this bunch - December 2. What do you think?
"I think that for people in a state of clinical depression the decision to kill oneself is just about the only thing they CAN do. I don't think there's much weighing up to be done, as there would be for a person in a healthy mental state. Everything is just so black and overwhelming that death is the only way out of the pain."
Very true. OK, so we can assume that Druitt was fairly quick about it and didn't beat around the bush waiting for several days to think about it, yes? So if he was fired on November 30, you think it's safe to assume that it would have been pretty much straight after that?
Phil, you wrote:
"Asam: Regarding your "Kitty, you wrote:" post.
For once you and I are completely at one."
Wow, that's excellent, Phil. Like Glenn, we seem to be gradually agreeing on more points, or atleast discussing them more throughly. That's a good sign. Thanks for that!
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 239
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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Hi, Adam;
Yes, I think Druitt must have written the note the same day he killed himself. Unfortunately we don't have it-we only have reconstructions so we're not sure if it was dated or not. (I'm not consulting sources here but I think I'm correct).
Mags
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Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Hi Adam,
I did indeed appreciate your comments and efforts, I was just reacting negatively to the phrase 'now here's my rant on the conspiracy theory.'
Otherwise interesting points. If you look at the board when this occured, I did in fact make that plain, at a later point.
I would love to sit talking all day but, now have alot of work to do; I work in the year.
Do you all want a visitor's opinion? There are some bright characters here, with alot to give, who could be successful but who ruin it for themselves with very defensive, angry behaviour.
It's a shame. |
Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 127
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Just to say Maria G. is totally mistaken about my work, I have some very high quality research and have need of nothing. I am not afraid of Glenn and Phil, I just don't think insults are appropriate.
However, I am educated to post graduate standard and do know how to debate, and I invited people to do so. Unfortunately, the response was dissapointing. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
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I wonder ,Kitty, if you are aware of the saying about the pot and the kettle?
Mags
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2638
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
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Kitty,
Does this mean that you no longer will pay for my trip to UK and Kew so I can "look at the microfilms"?
Rats...
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 01, 2005)
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 134
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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I can't pay for it, but I can recommend it, it's very helpful. |
Kitty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 135
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Mags, I have really no desire to argue with you. Absolutely none. I believe the only reason we're here is to provoke one another to better research. I certainly wish every researcher on the board every success.
Thanks Mr.Radka for that kind assistance. I'll check it out! |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 248
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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You were right, Don. Absolutely rivetting!!
Mags
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 107
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 4:08 am: |
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Hi all,
Maria, you wrote:
"Yes, I think Druitt must have written the note the same day he killed himself. Unfortunately we don't have it-we only have reconstructions so we're not sure if it was dated or not. (I'm not consulting sources here but I think I'm correct)."
You're right. Druitt is not my suspect, so I've never really payed a great deal of attention to details like his suicide note, but it does seem logical that he would have written that note shortly before his death. It makes no sense for him to write it and then sit around doing nothing for a couple more days. So, because he said "Since Friday", we can knock out November 30th. If it was December 1, either he would have said "Since yesterday, Friday" or else "Since yesterday" and then dated it or something. December 3 and on seems too far, or else he may have said "For the past few days", etc. So, I think the date that fits it best is December 2. Do you agree with that?
Kitty, you wrote:
"I did indeed appreciate your comments and efforts, I was just reacting negatively to the phrase 'now here's my rant on the conspiracy theory.'"
That was said just as a bit of a comment before I started the post. And, it wasn't only myself who has pointed out that what I said wasn't a rant, other members also have. If you had any interesting discussion to stem off it, and thought it interesting, you would have replied to it properly, instead of just shrugging it off as it so often happens.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 706
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Adam wrote:
You're right. Druitt is not my suspect, so I've never really payed a great deal of attention to details like his suicide note, but it does seem logical that he would have written that note shortly before his death. It makes no sense for him to write it and then sit around doing nothing for a couple more days. So, because he said "Since Friday", we can knock out November 30th."
Actually not. If the note was not dated he could just as easily wrote "since Friday" in a note written on Friday since the alternative today" would have no meaning without a date. What knocks out Nov. 30 as the suicide date is the rail ticket found on him dated Dec. 1.
Andy S. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
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Kitty-
'PROVOKE eachother into more research'??????????
I dont think there's any need for that here ..we all do that quite well enough unassisted!!!
I'm sure you'll find Mr Radka's help useful!
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 5:53 am: |
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Hi Andrew,
You wrote:
"Actually not. If the note was not dated he could just as easily wrote "since Friday" in a note written on Friday since the alternative today" would have no meaning without a date. What knocks out Nov. 30 as the suicide date is the rail ticket found on him dated Dec. 1."
That's a good point Andrew, but it still doesn't sound right to say "since Friday" on the same day. It would have been simpler to just date it. But the rail ticket also knocks out November 30, yes. I still think December 2 fits in the best with all the details we know of Druitt's suicide.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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Mags (May I call you that?). You wrote:
Of course you're perfectly right,Phil. Kitty is afraid of you and Glenn.
That was my impression.
My inpression is that Kitty has read a book--no scratch that--has seen a movie about JTR, and has decided to make her fortune from the case. Bereft of ideas and obviously ill eqipeed to gather information on her own, she comes here to pick the brains of others. She offers nothing yet trys to tease information out of people who have actually putting the WORK into research. "Hey--anyone have any new,creative exciting ideas? Post 'em here"
A very perceptive post. I hope other latch on soon. Kitty is very clearly seeking to use others.
Regards,
Phil |
Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
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I am not afraid of Glenn and Phil, I just don't think insults are appropriate.
Kitty - was it something I said?
However, I am educated to post graduate standard and do know how to debate...
One wonders from what institution the degree came, and hopes to avoid it!!
I would love to sit talking all day but, now have alot of work to do; I work in the year.
Do you all want a visitor's opinion? There are some bright characters here, with alot to give, who could be successful but who ruin it for themselves with very defensive, angry behaviour.
It's a shame.
Does that sound like a valedictory (for Kitty, that means "goodbye") post? Is she off? |
Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 119
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 2:55 am: |
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Hi all,
Phil, you wrote:
"Does that sound like a valedictory (for Kitty, that means "goodbye") post? Is she off?"
We can only hope, Phil. We can only hope.
Cheers,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Kitty
Inspector
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 154
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 3:49 am: |
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Get a life, Adam, the insult Kitty posts are just really, really, boring. Same goes for everyone who hangs about these boards insulting people they don't know atall. |
Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:13 am: |
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Kitty, you wrote:
"Get a life, Adam, the insult Kitty posts are just really, really, boring. Same goes for everyone who hangs about these boards insulting people they don't know atall."
Jeez Kitty, you really know how to bring out the claws, don't you? (Pun intended.)
I have a life that I am quite happy with, thank you Kitty. But thanks for the tip, I'll remember it next time you go bad-mouthing other members for no particular reason again. I doubt I'll have long to wait.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 463
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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Hrmmm... The bad attitude and the claims of having a post graduate "standard" level of education makes Kitty sound like a poster we had a while back who actually got her "education" through a distance learning center where the classes were actually nowhere near even undergraduate level but the poster claimed made her more educated than the rest of us. If it's the same person, that would explain a lot. Someone else remember, wasn't that other name Michelle or something and an unregistered user?
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |
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We can only hope, Phil. We can only hope.
From subsequent posts, it seems that our hopes have been dashed.
But I have said I will apologise and refrain from any personal comment on her in future if she'll take me on on the conspiracy mano-a-mano!!
She won't of course, but I'm ready, and I'd actually really enjoy it, if she is half the researcher, intellectual and debater she claims to be. But don't hold your breath - what excuse do you think she'll use to wriggle out of it? |
Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:43 am: |
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Hi all,
Dan, interesting. Very interesting. I haven't been here long, so I don't know anywhere near all of the members, but what you say is quite curious. But I won't comment, since I don't know.
Phil, you wrote:
"But I have said I will apologise and refrain from any personal comment on her in future if she'll take me on on the conspiracy mano-a-mano!!"
Sounds like a good compromise to me, Phil. I've also begged for Kitty's forgiveness and requested to have been let back on her board - but, alas, I have apparently been too naughty, since there was no removal of her 'ban'. Shameful, isn't it?
"She won't of course, but I'm ready, and I'd actually really enjoy it, if she is half the researcher, intellectual and debater she claims to be. But don't hold your breath - what excuse do you think she'll use to wriggle out of it?"
That's very true. Kitty, you can't claim to be all of those things and then not offer a shred of evidence in support of it. It just doesn't happen that way. Phil, my wild, far out guess is that Kitty might just say she's got to go to work, or something along those lines. We dare not interrupt her schedule, do we?
Best of luck with being re-admitted! Keep trying!
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Kitty
Inspector
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 176
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Adam, Phil, and Dan, Just try not to bother, harrass, belittle and play oneupmanship games with people who aren't interested in discussion with you. It's that simple. 1. It reflects badly on you, getting so worked up, and 2. it puts off the public.
There's nothing amiss with my qualifications. If I don't want to share about them, that's simply my business.
But I haven't got time to waste. |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 466
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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Hi Kitty,
I'm not interested in discussion with you (because with all of your posts you have yet to contribute one meaningful thing to this board), so why do you bother, harass, belittle and play one-upmanship games with me? In fact, that's all you've been doing (to me and others) since your first post here.
I doubt the other people you regularly insult here care to have discussions with you either. All you'd have to do is follow your own advice and maybe people wouldn't hate you so much. Or are you one of those people who thinks she can make rules for other people but doesn't have to follow them herself?
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Kitty
Inspector
Username: Kitty
Post Number: 188
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
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I do not insult people, and I have only been defending myself against abuse. The posts in themselves are clear. But like I said, I am not interested in hanging round where guys are uneducated and abusive. I have a happy life home and family and I'd rather get on with it thanks. |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 266
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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Re:Changing Our Minds
I'm ready to go on record as firmly ruling out Stride as a Ripper Victim.
Whew!
Mags
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 140
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 4:02 am: |
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Hi all,
Maria, you wrote:
"I'm ready to go on record as firmly ruling out Stride as a Ripper Victim."
Oh dear, we're not going to get along very well on this topic then, Maria!
This isn't the place to discuss it, I know, but I would just like to say that I do not believe in modern techniques of any kind to help solve the 116 year old case of the Ripper. She was believed to be a Ripper victim by the police at the time, a lot of evidence points in that direction, and a lot of opposing evidence is largely circumstantial. In short, I'd believe records of 1888 more than any modern-day theory, unless it has some kind of proof from that time to support it.
So, at the same time, I would like to go on record as saying that Stride was indeed a Ripper victim. As much a victim as Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were too.
That just isn't really one of those subjects that is a "Change your mind" thing.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 471
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
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Hi Adam,
"I would just like to say that I do not believe in modern techniques of any kind to help solve the 116 year old case of the Ripper."
I'm impressed, Adam. I didn't realize anyone found a way to hook 1888 telegraph lines up to this Internet site to retrieve and post messages.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
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But modern techniques have little to do with ruling out Stride. My decision on that score is based more on the coming together (as I see it) of common sense, logic, the witness testimony, the nature of Kidney, Stride and their relationship, the injuries and the context of the second murder.
AP's book - when first published - made me open my eyes. But the evidence was all there, I just hadn't focused on it before.
That said, it can only be a personal view based on my own summing up of the information available. Each of us has to take the routes and methods we feel comfortable with.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Hi All,I have some difficulty discounting the Stride murder as one of the rippers.This also has to do with AP"s reasoning strangely enough.AP is very emphatic about the issue of "silence" with regard to the ripper murders.And its certainly one of the main features of the other four ripper attributed murders.
It was indeed a noisy place to have chosen,but all the "noise" was coming from a first floor hall and 75% of the light and people were singing and dancing above where the murder took place[the other light came from a half open downstairs door some way from the Dutfields yard gate and from the very back of the building where they were busy printing the Arbiter Feint newspaper---below there would have been relative quiet and patches of blackness caused by the high wall with no windows.So in my view it was not a foolishly noisy,busy place but one which could, because of its patches of darkness and oportunities to escape unheard---[any noises being muffled by the racket upstairs]--be ideal for the elusive ripper to slide in and out of unnoticed.
Having said that I realise that it is indeed a strange murder if it took place within just 15 mins of the" Mr Broadshoulders" attack seen by the witness and in amongst other activity such as people coming and going from their club,others standing at their doors ----but ,rather typically no one saw a thing.Or rather apart from Schwartz,
noone seems to have seen a thing.I doubt Schwartz was inventing it but it could have been less violent than he thought.It could have been someone
half drunk being aggressive to a prostitute-not uncommon apparently-although unless she had previously "short changed him" its odd for him to have knocked her to the ground -not odd to have been rude and unpleasant though.
Which leaves us with a ripper who was lurking about in the shadows somewhere ready to pounce!As I tend to think happened with the Mitre Square murder.In other words it need not have been the ripper who Catherine Eddowes was last seen talking quietly to but another person who at that particular moment was in hiding.
But I think there is a 50/50 chance that something like that happened.And I certainly think its possible that Mr Broadshoulders could have been Stride"s killer.And that Mr Broadshoulders could have been Mr Kidney or yet another man....
Natalie
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 15
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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It's possible that the pipe-smoking man was Jack - waiting for his opportunity. But I doubt it, Natalie.
To me, Dutton's yard is wrong as a Ripper site because of all the comings and goings. Buck's Row, Mitre Square, Miller's Court were secluded. Even 29 Hanbury St, although much frequented was off the street.
But in Berner's St, Jack had to contend with comings and goings to and from the Club, and a busy street - as we know from witnesses. I don't think he would have seen the darkness around the gates as risk free enough to strike. Unless he was much more of an opportunist than i think.
Stride is MUCH more liekly to have been struck down (probably by Kidney) in a spur of the moment crime of passion, rather than by Jack. I'd guess that when it happened, Jack was already near, or on his way to, Mitre Square.
But that's just my view,
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:02 pm: |
|
I agree that the other sites were much more secluded,Phil and that this one doesnt fit that pattern.
However the way her throat was cut bore a striking resemblence to the way the others were killed giving the police the impression that the ripper had done it and had been interrupted.But as I write I realise that if it was the ripper then he had chosen a spot where he would have had great difficulty carrying out the mutilations that were so much a part of these murders.
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
|
And is not a slit throat a slit throat? |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 275
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
|
The inquest on Stride cites no "extravasation of blood" indicating probably no manual strangulation before the throat cutting and also says that the knife used in the throat cutting was probably shorter and blunter thatn the Ripper one.
The attack by Broad Shoulders,who I personally think was Kidney, when added to this is what made up my mind. I also like the idea that "Lipski" was really "Lizzie" (sorry, can't remember who first suggested this) and that it was misunderstood by a non English speaker.
I also think the spot was just too public.
Mags
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
Phil,
I dont know.I would think that a sudden act of passion would be more like a deep cut such as Alice McKenzie suffered in July 1889 and which the police decided was not the work of the ripper[there was some controversy but eventually...]
she had been stabbed twice in the throat as well as the abdomen.
Elizabeth Stride ,on the other hand had a very clean 6 inch incision in the neck,which began on the left side,two inches below the angle of the jaw,and almost in a direct line with it.It nearly severed the vessels on that side.The windpipe had been completely cut through.......[what ghastly stuff this is!]
anyway for me it throws doubt on a "crime of passion" and signifies why the police considered it a ripper work.The throat cut almost to the vertibrae again gives the clue[IMHO].
Natalie |
Jfripper
Sergeant
Username: Jfripper
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
Hi All,
Phil you wrote, And is not a slit throat a slit throat? Exactly.
I concur with you Phil and Mags. I do not believe Stride is a Jack The Ripper victim, and echo your reasonings as to why not. Add also the fact that Berner Street would not seem to be a highly profitable propostion for a prostitute to set her 'stall' out.
Mags
I believe it was Martin Fido who first suggested that that "Lipski" was really "Lizzie".
Cheers,
Michael |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1419
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
Hi Mags
just seen your post which crossed mine.The police doctors differed as to whether there had been strangulation or rather how the strangulation happened.BotPhillips and Baxter thought her scarf had been used to pull head head back and tighten her neck they seemed to both consider too that the murderer "knew how to do this" act causing minimal bllod spurt what they disagreed on was whether he was behind her or beside her on the ground when he did it.
Paul Begg arges that she was attacked through the scarf being pulled so tightly it caused her knees to buckle and one hand to tighten around the cachous,and the other to reach for her throat[and henve the blood on her hands]
Cheers Natalie[phew...think I"ll stop there or I"ll have nightmares!] |
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 190
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:52 pm: |
|
Hi all,
The inquest on Stride cites no "extravasation of blood" indicating probably no manual strangulation before the throat cutting and also says that the knife used in the throat cutting was probably shorter and blunter that the Ripper one.
Just why, I wonder, did the police at the time consider Stride to be a victim of the Ripper? It seems to me that the MO is so different from the Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes murders.
I'm still not convinced - after much to-ing and fro-ing - that Stride was a Ripper victim.
Can anyone offer me a sound argument that she may have been?
Bestest,
Lyn
(Whose head is going round in circles here..)
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
|
Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 191
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Hi again..
Paul Begg argues that she was attacked through the scarf being pulled so tightly it caused her knees to buckle and one hand to tighten around the cachous,and the other to reach for her throat[and have the blood on her hands]
Okay, I can picture this happening.. but can we still assume (from the inquest reports) that no strangulation took place?
Gawd.. I'm not making any sense here (so what's new, eh). I know what I'm thinking, or wondering, but am having trouble putting it into words.
Thanks for bearing with me anyway!
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2797
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
|
Hi Lyn,
"Just why, I wonder, did the police at the time consider Stride to be a victim of the Ripper? It seems to me that the MO is so different from the Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes murders."
Probably mainly because of the coincidence with the Eddowes murder, where the interruption scenario seemed to fit in rather nicely to the course of events. Then add the throat cut and that she belonged to the same category of victims.
"Can anyone offer me a sound argument that she may have been?"
No not really, not me at least... not anymore.
She can't be completely ruled out, but I think her murder was a weird coincidence originating from other motives and circumstances.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Lindsey Millar
Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 192
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
|
Glenn,
Thanks for that. I've just been flipflopping around over this, and haven't been able to come up with any sound reasoning that Stride was a victim of the Ripper.
My thoughts are all in circles..
Lyn
"When a man grows tired of London, he grows tired of life" (or summat like that)
|
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