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Jeff Stone
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:23 pm: | 
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Doesn't it make an impression on anyone that our best evidence is that two men were involved in the Whitechapel murders? According to Lawende, who saw a man throw one of the victims to the street about 15 minutes before her body was found, he was chased by a second man who was lighting a pipe at the time. Sugden offers the possibility that the other man, also, was running away, but what are the odds? Wouldn't you stop to try and help the woman? (Lawende was running because of an anti-Jewish comment snarled at him; he was Jewish). Wouldn't you at least stand around for a minute or two in shock? Best explanation is that he was an accomplice. Any other opininons? Sounds like a good case of "foile a deaux", or whatever that French term is, where two people commit terrible crimes together, like Leopold and Loeb, which they would not otherwise have committed |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2769
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Jeff,
Schwartz (not Lawende) ran away because he felt that Pipeman started running after him. Before that he only felt uneasy about the situation.
So it's quite possible that Pipeman were an accomplice to Mr Broad Shoulders. Because I do agree, why would Pipeman run away as well?
But the reasoning is dangerous, because it takes for granted that Stride was a Ripper victim, which I feel she wasn't. In fact, Pipeman's appearance and conduct could indicate that the two men were members of some kind of gang that assaulted prostitutes on their territory. We know such gangs existed. Furthermore the conduct of Mr BS is not especially corroborative with the silent, careful manner of the Ripper.
And even if she were a Ripper victim, we still have the circumstances regarding some of the others to consider.
In the other crime scenes we don't have any real signs of two persons working in pairs. Elizabeth Long only saw one person in Hanbury Street with Chapman etc.
So, no personally I can't say I get an impression of that this duo theory is relevant in the ripper case.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Adam Went
Detective Sergeant
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 5:09 am: |
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Hi all,
Jeff, the 2 man theory is an interesting one, but has been ruled out long ago. It is quite well known that the Ripper was a lone killer, and this is evidenced in almost all cases of known victims and possible victims alike. But you can read more about my thoughts below, in other responses.
Glenn, you wrote:
"So it's quite possible that Pipeman were an accomplice to Mr Broad Shoulders. Because I do agree, why would Pipeman run away as well?"
Well we don't actually know if he was running away at all. Even Schwartz could not be sure of exactly what he was up to there. He may simply have been a passer-by who paused to look at what all the commotion was on the other side of the street, before moving on. Exactly the same as Schwartz did. I do not believe he was involved with Stride's killing in any way. But that's just my opinion.
"But the reasoning is dangerous, because it takes for granted that Stride was a Ripper victim, which I feel she wasn't. In fact, Pipeman's appearance and conduct could indicate that the two men were members of some kind of gang that assaulted prostitutes on their territory. We know such gangs existed. Furthermore the conduct of Mr BS is not especially corroborative with the silent, careful manner of the Ripper."
Let us use Emma Smith as an example here. There was 3 or 4 Youths attacking her all at once. Not one standing look-out. If the killing of Stride was a gang attack, then I doubt very much there would be another man standing well away from her, just watching. Besides that, a look-out is no good anyway, if a policeman with a lamp were to wander out of a nearby street. Too many differences and dangerous possibilities here.
I must agree, though, that there is no proof that the duo theory is relevant.
Regards,
Adam.
The Wenty-icator!
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Jfripper
Sergeant
Username: Jfripper
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:30 am: |
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Hi Glenn and Adam,
Another possibility is that Mr Pipeman was the man Stride had spent most of the evening with. A possible Jewish Lover??
One reason why he was outside the public house is because Stride recognized the staggering drunken form coming towards her, and fearing a possible attack against her man, she told him to wait further down the street until she had got rid of the threat.
The situation gets out-of-hand however, and Mr Pipeman, not wanting to become involved, perhaps because he is married and feels this could make things a bit awkward for his marriage, decides it is better to retreat.
As to why he did not come forward later, maybe this could be explained by the fact that he could either be identified by Best and Gardner as the man with Stride at the pub, or by Packer who could identify him as the man who bought Stride the grapes. Again he would have to explain why he was with Stride, especially if all three could identify him.
This scenario explains Schwartz's statement a lot more reasonably than most others offered up.
Cheers,
Michael |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:09 am: |
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Adam, you wrote: It is quite well known that the Ripper was a lone killer...
I think that is a view many of us would agree with, but I don't think one can regard it as proven, or even as certain as your statement seems to imply.
Sorry to quibble,
Phil
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2792
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
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Hi Adam,
"Well we don't actually know if he was running away at all. Even Schwartz could not be sure of exactly what he was up to there. He may simply have been a passer-by who paused to look at what all the commotion was on the other side of the street, before moving on."
It is true that Pipeman's conduct is and was hard to interpret (which I also have stated), but fact remains that according to Schwartz it was this man's movements that made Schwartz himself hurry away from the place, not the assault on Stride as such (which have only made him feel uneasy).
So one wonders, why stand and watch the scene and then suddenly set off as soon as Schwartz arrived if he was just another onlooker?
"Exactly the same as Schwartz did. I do not believe he was involved with Stride's killing in any way. But that's just my opinion."
I must admit, I am not sure either. It is problematic that we have two rather diverging stories from Schwartz here (although I would consider the one revealed in the police statement to be a more credible and less sensationalized one). We must also consider the fact that Schwartz could no English and that probably two different interpreters were used (his friend at the police's and maybe another one for the Star interview). Not to mention the fact that Schwartz in retrospect couldn't be sure exactly if Pipeman's conduct was directly aimed at him. Which leaves us pretty much in the dark and to speculate.
"Let us use Emma Smith as an example here. There was 3 or 4 Youths attacking her all at once. Not one standing look-out. If the killing of Stride was a gang attack, then I doubt very much there would be another man standing well away from her, just watching."
Well, I am not an expert of East End gangs and their methods, so I can't really comment on that. Apart from, that we have no real exact account of how the gang that attacked Emma Smith operated in detail and the fact that we can't assume that all gangs operated in the same way. Besides this, there is no way we can speculate about this. There are no real proof or that it was members of a gang involved in Stride's case or that Pipeman was involved in some way, but it can't be completely ruled out.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 472
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
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From what I remember, Smith actually is reported to have variously said she was attacked by 2 or 3 people. The standard response from most sources is to rule it a gang attack, but if it were only two that's really not much of a gang. I don't recall any evidence that would support the idea that it was four (or more) people.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:33 am: |
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Find it strange that you use Emma Smith as an example when there is considerable evidance that Martha Tabram was attacked by more than one assailant.
Was Nichols attacked in Brady St and cased towards her waiting doom in Bucks Row?
And was there a look out at Millers Court? The government gave this possibility enough credance to bring up in parliment and offer the Rippers accomplice immunity if he would come forward and give evidence.
If you cannonise Tabram then there is possibility of two man involvement in over half the attacks.
The look out theory may not make sence, but very little does. I think it would be wrong to say we can catigorically dismiss the possibility.
Jeff |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
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Hi Jeff and Glenn,
I believe tht it is possible that two men were involved with the murders. Who knows why pipeman was following Is or if he even was. However the police did offer a pardon to anyone with information concerning the Kelly murder. Not a reward but a pardon. Assumeing that they were not offering to pardon Jack then they must have thought that someone may of had guilty knowledge of the murders. The pardon was never claimed but the murders did stop after the Kelly murder.[In my oppinion.] and Macnoughton did claim to have recieved private information concerning the murders and the rippers identity. I believe such information could have came from James Monroe. The logical choice would be that after Druitt was discoverd a family member came forward with information that led Monroe to believe that Druitt was the ripper. Macnaughton claimed that even Druitt's own family believed him to be the ripper. Macnaughton's information of course would have been second hand but police aid to the eastend stood down right about the time that Druitt,s body was discoverd. This leads me to believe that Monroe believed Druitt to be the ripper. What if it was the offer of a pardon that was responsible for a family member too come forward with information. People sometimes are afraid to come forward with information because they are afraid that they would be judged as an accomplise. Maybe the offer a pardon was just the push that a family member of Druitt or a Friend of Tumblety or anyone for that matter who may of had knowledge of the ripper murders.
Your friend,CB |
Jeff Stone
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:22 am: |
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Stride couldn't have been a Ripper victim, because two men were involved. Okay.... |
Jeff Leahy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:37 am: |
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Many thanks for your post CB
Am doing some investigation into James Monroe, just like the enicials.
For my money the explination that Jack died shortly after the Kelly murder has always been the most appealing. I always follow the Druitt threads with interest. I must agree with your assumption that , if , Druitt was the Ripper it is likely that given the family history of mental illness, that someone suspected or new what was happening.
Cheers Jeff |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:22 am: |
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Hello Jeff,
Two or more member crime teams, always seem to result in one member breaking, and eventually ratting out the other. Or, in some instances, running their mouth, and getting both caught. Especially when murder is involved. I believe The Ripper was intelligent enough to know this. Coupled with the notion, that it is far easier for one person to keep a secret than two, I feel he would have preceeded on his crime spree alone.
All the best,
Dustin Gould
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Dan L. Hollifield
Sergeant
Username: Vila
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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Are two suspects enough? Or is this discussion limited only to the prospect of a "team" of Jacks the Ripper?
If two, or more, people- working without knowledge of each other -were to be examined as a viable theory, how would you go about it? How would one divide the possible victims up between the putative mutiple killers?
OK, the first thing that came to my mind was to examine the pool of possible victims and see if any could be culled by obvious differences from the rest. Could any victims be linked to a different hand? Were there any real indications of more than one killer? After all, the Torso Killer was operating in a nearby area at the same time as JTR's recorded spree. Where does such unbridled speculation lead us?
Hmmm, possibly that Tabrum was killed by two soldiers on leave- that were never caught. Possibly that Stride was killed by;
a) a small gang of angry pimps,
b)her boyfriend,
c)PipeMan and BroadShoulders as a team,
d)JTR after everyone else had fled the scene and Stride is injured from the other attack,
e)Damifino, add more yourself.
A couple of these possibilities lead to further speculation of team-ups, as well as simple overlapping-loners.
I hope I've sparked your imagination a bit. But remember, all this is merely baseless speculation until someone can correlate bits of proof to a pattern. I look forward to your comments on my flight of fancy.
Vila
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Jeff Leahy
Police Constable
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 8:03 am: |
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Hi Vila
Your idea isnt that far fetched. If you do a google search on the murder of Joanna Parrish who was murdered in France you'll uncover an interesting story about french serial killers working in a small town of auxerre. It has been suggested that there may have been a common link to these killers, a sex ring of some kind spawning other killers. I also beleive the West's were linked to a sex ring.
I think it unlikely that Jack was a group but it is not beyond the realms of reason. He was probably a lone killer but an accomplice is not impossible. A gang did attack Smith if you beleive her story. The Torso killer and Chapman were also operating in Whitchappel at the Time.
I once read something about a city in Mexico where a large number of seriel killers and killings took place in a short period in a small area. Social conditions just triggered it off.
Jeff |
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