| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 375
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 10:14 am: | 
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Hi all
Just a general query.
Would all Police Files (nothing to do with Jack) from the Victorian and Edwardian period up to about 1930 if they have survived, be at the Public Records Office. If not where, and could members of the public like me, have a look at them.
Rob |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
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All national documents (census records, cabinet papers, police files etc.) are subject to certain periods of time when they are closed to public access. Some are subject to the 100 years rule (such as census data) some to a 30 year rule (such as cabinet papers). I believe there is also a 50 and a 75 year rule. As the "Ripper Files" were not supposed to officially be opened to the public until 1992 I assume that police records are subject to the 100 year rule. By the way, it was 1992 and not 1988 because the 100 years starts from when the case is deemed to be closed.
The one exception to this is records in the Royal Archives which have no time limit and are considered pemanently closed.
Hope this helps |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 376
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:11 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Thanks for the info. As far as I am aware, the police records are closed for a 100 years, but they have been known to open early, the "Ripper Files" were about 86/87 years.
So hopefully there will be some dusty shoe boxes that have survived.
Rob |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 595
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:55 pm: |
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Hi Robert and Chris,
Right, they maintained 100 closure for records relating to criminal cases. I had some correspondence going with the National Archives last summer, and I was told that before the 1958 Public Records Act, individual departments had the say over closure, but that generally people adhered to the 100 year closure period for records relating to criminal cases and it was the standard. That came down from the Home Office, which was the police authority for the Met. Like Chris says, closure starts from the date of the last entry in a file. In 1958 they passed the Public Records Act, which standardized access to 50 years, but they put in a clause which gave the Lord Chancellor the power to shorten or lengthen the period, and that's just what happened The Lord Chancellor's Instrument No. 1 of 1959 confirmed 100 year closure for the HO144 files. When the MEPO3 files were transferred to The National Archives in 1961, LCI No. 3 confirmed 100 year closure for them as well.
There was another Lord Chancellor's Instrument in 1984 which eased up on closure periods, changing the period from 100 to 75 years. I was told that Home Office and Met. Police files were unaffected because they didn't want to do a blanket reduction on those files, since there might be sensitive information in some of them. They would have had to do a file by file review which they didn't have the resources for.
I believe I've got that right. Stewart Evans would know more. It's a confusing system for an American 
Cheers,
Dave
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 377
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
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Hi David
Thanks for that. Confusing? now you know why I asked .
I think I will have to try my luck and pop down to the P.R.O and see what happens.
All the best
Rob |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 596
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:16 pm: |
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Sorry Robert. . .all that and I didn't even address your question. You're asking about ALL police records in Britain? I don't think TNA/PRO would be holding all records. For police forces whose authority came locally rather than from the Home Office, I think you'd be dealing more with local record offices and archives than TNA/PRO. I remember trying to chase down a police file in Birmingham--everyone seemed to think the records were being held in a local police museum (I never was able to locate what I was looking for). Just about everybody has a website now, and I think you should be able to find contact information for just about any local police authority. Someone there should be able to at least start you out. Local records I think would be liable to 75 year closure (like in the case of the Langham inquest); since you're outside extreme is 1930, you're just about there. If you do run into a closed record, I also think you might be able to circumvent closure under priveliged access (I suppose if you're inquiring about something related to a family member or something like that).
But by all means, try the TNA/PRO too. They seem to act like a parental organization advising local record offices, so they should also be in a position to help.
Also some of the British researchers who I know read the boards might be able to offer better advice on the English system than a guy in Tennessee
Best of luck,
Dave
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 378
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 4:46 pm: |
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Hi Dave
I was specifically after the Metropolitan Police records. I will hunt around and see if the P.R.O have a website and e-mail them. I would think the London records would go to them (as Jacks have) but if they don't they may put me on the right track.
Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.
All the best
Rob |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 597
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:01 pm: |
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Doh! My bad, Robert--sorry I think you'll find what you're looking for at the PRO- www.pro.gov.uk
Dave
(Message edited by oberlin on December 09, 2004) |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 556
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:07 pm: |
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What used to be the PRO catalogue is here:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
The Metropolitan Police records are held there, with the letter-code MEPO.
The City of London Police records are held by the Corporation of London Record Office. Here is the relevant entry in the National Register of Archives:
http://www.nra.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/sidocs.asp?SIR=O58654
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3634
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:16 pm: |
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Hi Rob
Also, Rob Hills, in an article in Ripperologist No.46, says that the Metropolitan Police Museum gave him a rundown of George Morris's police record.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 379
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:44 pm: |
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Thanks Chris, Dave, Robert
Hopefully I will be able to find what I need
Cheers Guys 
Rob |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 154
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:27 pm: |
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Just out of curiosity-- are ALL the census records closed for 100 years? It seems that there's a lot of useful info in there that people would want now-- such as businesses wanting demographics.
Mags
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Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 4:38 pm: |
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Maria
It's only the personal information that's closed - the statistical information is available.
I believe even personal information is made available to researchers under certain circumstances. At least I think it used to be the case that information from closed censuses could be provided for a particular address.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 567
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
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Hi all,
I'll ask this here instead of creating a new thread.
Does anyone have access to the Police Orders website? And if so would they possibly be able to look up a name for me?
I use to have access but lost my password and I can't seem to get it resent.
If anyone can help my e-mail is rclack@supanet.com
Thanks
Rob |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 568
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
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Thank you Robert Charles Linford.
Rob |
