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Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 8:22 am: |       |
I have posted a request for information regarding this elsewhere but am re-posting on this section just in case it gets answered quicker.
Is there any proof that suggests that this poem wasn't created by Donald Mccormick? Does it appear ANYWHERE prior to the release of Mccormick's book?
Thanks in advance |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 365
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 2:17 pm: | |
Hi Lee,
Fancy seeing you on the Casebook boards. It's good to see you out stretching your legs from that Yahoo group.
I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that the poem was a genuine communication of the 19th century. The first known mention is in McCormick, and the only other references to it are in those works using McCormick as a source.
The only alleged prior reference would be the so-called Maybrick diary's "rough drafts" of the poem, and since I'm fairly certain that it's because of that that you are asking the question in the first place, using itself to try to verify itself obviously doesn't work.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hi Dan and Lee
Lee, Dan is correct that we have no earlier source for the Eight Little Whores poem than Donald McCormick which might mean that it is an invention of McCormick's or else it comes from Dr. Thomas Dutton's writings from which Don McCormick claimed he drew some of his material. There are known period rhymes that are along the same lines as Eight Little Whores but not the same thing.
As posted on Mudcat Café, a lyrics site:
"Ten Little Indians ... was a popular Victorian minstrel show song, written by Frank Green to music by Marc Mason and published in England in February 1869. Green wrote the song for G. W. 'Pony' Moore, a comic tenor with the Christy Minstrels who performed in St. James Hall, Picadilly. The song became a classic and was especially popular among children, hence its 'nursery rhyme' status."
TEN LITTLE INDIANS
Ten little Injuns standin' in a line,
One toddled home and then there were nine;
Nine little Injuns swingin' on a gate,
One tumbled off and then there were eight.
One little, two little, three little, four little,
Five little Injun boys,
Six little, seven little, eight little, nine little,
Ten little Injun boys.
Eight little Injuns gayest under heav'n,
One went to sleep and then there were seven;
Seven little Injuns cutting up their tricks,
One broke his neck and then there were six.
Six little Injuns kickin' all alive,
One kicked the bucket and then there were five;
Five little Injuns on a cellar door,
One tumbled in and then there were four.
Four little Injuns up on a spree,
One he got fuddled and then there were three;
Three little Injuns out in a canoe,
One tumbled overboard and then there were two.
Two little Injuns foolin' with a gun,
One shot t'other and then there was one;
One little Injun livin' all alone,
He got married and then there were none.
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 513
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 3:28 pm: | |
Apart from the lack of any known reference to the poem before McCormick wrote, the line, "One stays in Henage Court, then there's a killing", makes it very difficult to believe this could be a genuine composition from the 1880s.
In the previous chapter, McCormick had related the story of PC Spicer, published by the Daily Express in 1931, recounting his arrest of a Ripper suspect in Henage Court.
As McCormick himself notes, Henage (or Heneage) Court is "an obscure alley", and its occurrence twice in two chapters can hardly be coincidental.
It seems that there's a clear reference in the poem to Spicer's story published in 1931. I don't see how that can be easily reconciled with the poem's genuineness.
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on November 17, 2004) |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:42 am: | |
Hello All,
Was "whore" a word in common usage in the 1880s in London? |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:45 am: | |
Hi Chris
You make a very good point, and of course we know that Donald McCormick sold newspaper stories to the Daily Express in the 1930's.
Regards
John Savage |
Lee McLoughlin
Police Constable
Username: Lee
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 5:45 am: | |
Hi Dan,
I think I will stay over here for a while now. On that yahoo group if you show any sign that you might think the diary is fake they think YOUR a mad-man!!
By the way, regarding the "diary" has anyone checked the writing against any of the authors like Mccormick, anyone before him or even Dr Dutton? You never know. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
Hi Lee
Your suggestion to check the handwriting of people like McCormick against the writing in the Diary is a worthwhile one. However, my inclination is to believe that it was a Liverpudlian or someone with Liverpool connections who thought of making James Maybrick the Ripper. A southerner might more likely think of making the murderer a Londoner or someone in the Home Counties or at least southern England, partly because of the 200-mile journey that makes it unlikely that Maybrick could have been the killer.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 514
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 9:29 am: | |
Another possible pointer to what's going on is that McCormick consistently misspells Heneage as "Henage", as does the Daily Express article (as transcribed on this website).
Chris Phillips
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 5:51 am: | |
Hi Chris G,
Why do you say the 200-mile journey makes it 'unlikely that Maybrick could have been the killer', when you know it is extremely well documented that James Maybrick travelled extensively and made frequent visits to London?
I could understand your point of view more if James was considered to be a bit of a stay-at-home, reluctant to budge half a mile from his native Liverpool. But you know that could hardly be further from the case.
Love,
Caz
X
|
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 871
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:18 am: | |
Chris,
You mentioned Maybrick. 
Surely I'm not the only one who can see the future before it arrives around here.
You have only yourself to blame.
My sympathies,
--John |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
Hi Caz
Nonetheless even if Maybrick visited London on a regular basis, and his mistress lived in the East End years before, it is still a tortured explanation for the murders that James Maybrick did the murders in London to avenge himself on his unfaithful wife when there were plenty of prostitutes in Liverpool to slaughter. And I believe there is evidence of this in the Diary, that the writer realised that it was a stretch to make Maybrick the Ripper, for they feel they have to say "Whitechapel Liverpool, Whitechapel London" to make the connection seem more natural.
All the best
Chris
P.S. John, no need to be sympathetic. The Diarists continue to be hoisted on their own petard. 
(Message edited by ChrisG on November 21, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 5:26 am: | |
Hi Chris,
You argue well against the view, expressed by others at various times, that the Maybrick case was a highly 'convenient' one for the diarist to combine with JtR.
You make it sound like a highly unsuitable case for treatment - having Sir Jim frequent the dodgiest areas of London and blame his own shortcomings on his wife's dalliances.
Don't you think real serial killers would be capable of offering an equally 'tortured explanation' for what they do and where they do it?
Love,
Caz
X |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 515
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
The discussion seems to have wandered away from the subject of the thread.
Wouldn't it better be taken to the Maybrick boards?
Chris Phillips
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 302
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 6:31 am: | |
I agree Chris P.,
However, given we are seeking the provenance of an obscure piece of poetry, am I not correct in recalling there used to be someone in Liverpool
with a capacity to source little-known snatches of doggerel? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 501
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 8:16 pm: | |
I seem to remember that the poem TEN LITTLE INJUNS had a more perjorative title (more offensive one too). Indeed, Agatha Christie's novel of that name was originally in the offensive style, but was changed because it was so offensive. If the reader does not know what I mean, think back to the cross-examination of that detective by F. Lee Bailey at the Simpson trial, and the "N" word that Bailey showed the detective frequently used.
I might add that for a few years now I have been trying to trace down a bit of doggerel poetry that is connected to another famous crime of the 1880s. In the Adelaide Bartlett Case, if one reads up on it, her lover the Reverend George Dyson, wrote her poetry, of which only this snatch survives:
"Who is it that hath burst the door
Unclothed the heart that shut before
And set her queenlike on its throne
and made its homage all her own -- My Birdie."
God help us all what the rest of this drivel by Dyson must have read like. But about seven years back, I read a book, THE TOWN THAT STARTED THE CIVIL WAR by Nat Brandt (New York: Bantam Doubleday Dell - Laurel Trade Paperback, 1990, 1991), about an incident in 1858, in the town of Oberlin, Ohio (where the college is located). It involved a confrontation in which some slave catchers were worsted by the locals protecting runaway slaves despite the Fugitive Slave Act (hence the title of Mr. Brandt's book, which I recommend). On page 113 - 114, this bit of anti-Federal Marshall (who was trying to enforce the law) doggeral is printed:
Who sought this place when purse was low,
And he had nowhere else to go,
And strove his legal wit to show?
Our Marshal.
Who was the first to shake with fright,
When out a "little late" one night,
To see a figure robed in white?
Our Marshal.
Who was the first to break and run,
Though strongly armed and four to one,
From Wagner [sic] with his lockless gun?
Our Marshal.
I will refrain from quoting the other four stanzas. The point is there is a common origin between this doggerel and Dyson's little ditty.
This was actually sung, "in the style of Mother Goose." I don't know of any Mother Goose nursery rhyme that sounds like this. If anyone out there does, feel free to tell me.
Anyway, back to Ten Little Indians...
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 133
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:08 pm: | |
I don't know of any Mother Goose nursery rhyme that sounds like this.-J.Bloomfield
Nyuk,nyuk,nyuk....I do.
Who darned our socks
amd starched our shirts
when we wuz just
little squirts?
Mammy !
Who tucked us in
and blew our nose
when we were little
so and so's ?
Mammy !
From the 1941 Three Stooges film,"All The World's A Stooge"....you know that one,Jeff...they were orphans. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 502
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 7:51 pm: | |
Hi Howard,
I have to admit that I must have seen it, but I can't recall it. I soiteny fell bad about that.
By the way, I just noticed, the last message I left on this board was my 500th on this web site.
I finally reached Chief Inspector.
Don't you think that Moe deserved an Oscar nomination for the role of Hailstorm in those two shorts? He certainly did a very realistic impersonation in them.
Well they are on the Hollywood Walk of Fame anyway.
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Detective Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 8:21 pm: | |
Yeah,J.B...He soitenly did at that ! |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 507
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:28 pm: | |
By the way, on reconsidering my remarks I forgot that besides "harlot" and "tart" as synonyms of "whore", "trollop" would have been fairly commonly used. Of course it is not as popular these days - it keeps making me think of the ever popular "Anthony" with the final "e", of "Barchester" and "Pallister" literary fame.
Jeff |
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