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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | 
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Enjoyed this little romp very much indeed:
'The murder of Leon Beron
When the battered body of Leon Beron was discovered on Clapham Common on New Year’s Day 1911, it was to set in motion the most notorious murder trial of the day.
And it was to provide a day in court for some of the
East End’s most colourful characters... and least reliable witnesses.
The case also dragged in the Home Secretary, Winston Churchill, allegations of spying and sinister implications with the recent Sidney Street siege and the Houndsditch Murders.
Slum landlord
Beron wasn’t universally loved – as a slum landlord he was unlikely to be. He owned nine decaying houses in Russell Court, Stepney, which provided him with 10 shillings (50p) a week, enough to pay his own two shillings rent on 133 Jubilee Street, Stepney, and provide the one and sixpence a day for his meals
at the Warsaw Kosher Restaurant at 32 Osborn Street, Whitechapel.
It was at the Warsaw that Beron began to be seen in the company of Steinie Morrison, in December 1910. Morrison was another Russian Jew, who had arrived in England in 1898. Where he arrived from wasn’t certain – he claimed to be Australian and also used the pseudonyms Alexander Petro-pavloff, Morris Stein and Moses Tagger. What was certain was that he was a professional thief, who had already served five sentences for burglary.
Prompt arrest
Beron was found in gorse bushes on the Common, his head staved in by a blunt instrument, his legs neatly crossed, his wallet emptied, and a curious ‘S’ mark carved into each cheek. They were, observed the police surgeon, “like the f holes on a violin”.
It took the police just seven days to pick up Morrison, arresting him as he tucked into his breakfast at Cohen’s Restaurant, in Fieldgate Street.
They had quickly discovered that he had been working at Lavender Hill, so might know the Common well. They also discovered that on the morning of New Year’s Day, Morrison, using yet another pseudonym of Banman, had lodged a revolver and 45 bullets at the left luggage office of St Mary’s Railway Station, in Whitechapel.
They also discovered that he had moved in with a Lambeth prostitute, Florrie Dellow,
on January 1 – after telling his Newark Street landlady that he was off to Paris.
All very suspicious, but also all circumstantial evidence.
The defence and prosecution witnesses were as unreliable as each other. Beron’s brother Solomon attempted to physically attack defence counsel Edward Abinger when he implied he might have had something to do with Leon’s death.
Unreliable evidence
Meanwhile, 16-year-old Janie Brodski backed Morrison’s alibi – that he had spent the night at the Shoreditch Empire watching Harry Champion and Harry Lauder. She claimed that she and her sister had paid on the door for seats in the stalls at a shilling each.
Unfortunately, the theatre manager confirmed that the seat prices had been raised to 1s 6d (71/2p) for the night, and had all been sold out days in advance.
Add in the unreliable and conflicting evidence of a number of cab drivers placing Morrison at the murder scene (by now his photo and offers of a reward had appeared in the newspapers) and it is difficult to see how any court could reasonably convict him.
Abinger attempted to cloud the waters further. He implied that Beron was a police informant who had been assassinated for grassing on the anarchists responsible for the Houndsditch Murders and the Sidney Street siege. The ‘S’ marks stood for the Polish word ‘spiccan’ or spy, he suggested.
The policeman in charge, DI Wensley, scoffed at the theory, and the jury took 35 minutes to find Morrison guilty of murder. The judge had no option but to pass the death sentence, saying: “May the Lord have mercy on your soul.”
“I decline such mercy!” shouted Morrison. “I do not believe there is a God.”
The Court of Appeal upheld the conviction but the Home Secretary was not so sure. Churchill commuted Morrison’s sentence to life.
Ironically, it was a decision the prisoner himself would not accept. He repeatedly appealed to be put to death and, on January 24, 1921, weakened by a series of hunger strikes, he died in Parkhurst Prison.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3323
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 6:35 pm: |
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Very entertaining, AP. Wensley was around at the same time as Jack, as he joined the Force in 1887, at length rising to the rank of Chief Constable.
Robert |
Lindsey Millar
Sergeant
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 8:59 pm: |
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Thanks, AP,
I remember reading about this case, but hadn't realised Winston Churchill's involvement. Will resurrect the book I originally read of this case in - must reread it... Interesting case! Thanks again!
Lyn |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 4:23 am: |
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Thanks folks
What caught my eye as well was the chap being arrested at a restaurant in Fieldgate Street, for if my old memory serves me well one of the Cutbush properties in Fieldgate Street was a restaurant. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 6:41 am: |
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More news from Fieldgate Street, this time from the Whitechapel Foundry located there:
‘HISTORIC FINDS AT THE FOUNDRY
The Whitechapel Bell Foundry premises being as old as they are (and some nooks and crannies remaining as untouched for as long as they sometimes do) it's not unusual to turn up old and interesting items during office clean-outs or reorganizations. In the past these have included WWII-era board games and a Victorian vibrator (complete with box and instructions!), but the most recent finds were some Victorian magic lantern slides and several boxes of glass photographs. These appear to run from the late-Victorian period to the mid-1950s but, unfortunately, are mostly neither dated nor labelled. A couple of these, chosen at random, have been scanned as an experiment and are shown below. As and when we figure out how to improve this process, we will put up other selections.’
This could prove a fascinating find, and I’ll keep my eye on the Whitechapel Foundry site to see what they find.
‘THE 1881 LIBEL CASE
A few weeks ago, in the course of redecorating one of the rooms in the older part of the Foundry office building, we made a discovery in a long-neglected cupboard. Alongside an old Victorian model of a wooden bellframe (there would have been produced for specific installations for those unable to read engineering drawings, and there are several still in existence at the Foundry) were three dusty boxfiles. Two of these contained nothing more interesting than rubbings taken of the inscriptions on various bells, but the third box was a real surprise. Bearing a label that read "Stainbank v Beckett 1881", it contained a complete transcript of the second trial between the Foundry - this time in the person of founder Robert Stainbank - and Sir Edmund Beckett Denison. Initially, we thought we'd discovered a transcript of the original, Big Ben trial - a story which would make a good TV drama. Briefly, Denison had been responsible for commissioning Big Ben from the Foundry, going so far as to specify the alloy mix to be used in the casting and the size of hammer to be fitted. He was advised that the alloy mix was not the optimum and that the hammer he had specified was twice as heavy as was ideal. Convinced he knew best, he insisted on his specification being followed. As a consequence, within two months of being installed, the bell cracked. Not prepared to admit any error on his part, Denison befriended one of the Foundry's moulders, plied him with drink, and got him to bear false witness that it was poor casting, disguised with filler, that had caused the cracking. (A recent close examination of Big Ben failed to find a trace of filler, incidentally.) Denison rightly lost the subsequent court case but was obviously aggrieved at having done so as he continued to badmouth the Foundry. Twenty years later he was unwise enough to do so in print and this led to the libel trial whose transcript we rediscovered. And he lost that case, too.
While it's a shame we don't possess a transcript of the Big Ben trial (at least, none we've yet found) there is apparently a copy still extant at the Palace of Westminster. This may, however, be the only existing transcript of the later trial. That original, handwritten transcript will be lodged in the Foundry library after a typed record has been made.’
Again this should prove to a fascinating document, and in my fertile imagination I see the ‘moulder’ whom Lord Grimthorpe plied with drink as one Luke Flood Cutbush.
I wish!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3324
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 9:18 am: |
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Very good news this, AP, for apart from its intrinsic historical value via-a-vis the libel case, it shows how things from that period can still turn up.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1437
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 1:14 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
another little gem, the Salvation Army had a mission just across the road from the Foundry.
I'll let them explain:
'Continue to the end of Parfett Street and turn left into Fieldgate Street. A clothing factory on the left, between Settles Street and Greenfield) road, is the site of:
8) THE EBENEZER HALL:
view full size image
From 1870 onwards this was used as a Christian Mission meeting place, and by the end of May 1880 also housed the printing works where The War Cry was printed. The long- established Whitechapel Bell Foundry is still on the corner of Fieldgate Street and Whitechapel Road.'
An image of Ebenezer Hall is available on the Salvation Army site - see the London walk - as are many other interesting images of the LVP. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 1:50 pm: |
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Just over the road from the bell foundry in 1880:
'We now go straight on to Fieldgate Street synagogue known in its time as the Great Fieldgate Street synagogue. As a synagogue it is actually small but compared to the numerous shtibls in the neighourhood it was large. Right next door is the first bakery established by Grodzinski in 1880. Grodzinski was a baker from Poland.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3327
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 3:08 pm: |
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AP, for a while now I've been thinking of the item at http://casebook.org/press_reports/quappelle_progress/940329.html
A synagogue near a public house. There must have been many. Still, I keep thinking about it.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1440
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 5:12 pm: |
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Yes, Robert
Methinks you to be right here.
The only public house I have tracked down so far is the 'Queen's Head' at 83 Fieldgate Street, and although I don't know it yet, I feel the pub may have carried another name in the LVP - possibly the 'Old King's Head' (I'm still checking this out).
I've decided to assemble my knowledge concerning Fieldgate Street and then post is when complete, rather than keep posting it as I find it, but just for interest what do you think a sugar refiner at 17 Fieldgate Street would be worth on his death?
And did you know that there is - or was -a 'Plumbers Row' in Fieldgate Street? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3329
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |
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Yes, AP, it's "our" Plumber's Row I think.
I would say a sugar refiner would be worth a lump sum!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3330
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 6:32 pm: |
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AP, just a bit of pure speculation : if Thomas did something naughty in Fieldgate St, I think there's a good chance that he meant "syndicate" and not "synagogue." The two houses mentioned in the 1892 article were clearly owned by more than one person, and TTC was but one of them. So maybe we have a syndicate there.
There seems to have been a pub called The Black Horse Windmill at No. 5 in 1891.
How this might fit into the newspaper report is another matter.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 3:49 am: |
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Well, Robert, you are right in regard to a pub being next door to the 'syndicate' - if we take Tom's meaning to be the two properties in Fieldgate Street, for they were 6 & 7, and the Black Horse Windmill number 5.
However I believe the actual synagogue to be at number 19.
For some reason I'm much drawn to the idea of the 'Tower House' in Fieldgate Street as being Tom's bolt hole in that period. It was described by Jack London as 'the biggest doss house' in the world and had about seven hundred tiny rooms with thousands of people crammed into it. The building still exists - now in the hands of squatters - and is a truly forbidding structure that has peculiar associations with the times.
At the time it was a hot bed of revolutionaries, thugs and unfortunates, even Stalin and Marx hid out in there while they planned the downfall of society.
Ideal for a Jack really. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1442
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 3:55 am: |
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Very droll, Robert, in regard to the sugar refiner. For it was a 'lump' sum indeed.
I think we will need to review our impression of some of the citizens of Whitechapel regarding their personal wealth.
This chap - who lived at number 17 Fieldgate Street - left a massive fortune to his family when he popped his clogs, £10,000 in cash, properties all over England, carriages, large donations to hospitals etc.
I'll send you over the will if you like, as it gives us a new insight into the LVP of Whitechapel.
Meanwhile I'll see if I can't find more on pubs in the street. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 6:02 am: |
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Hi AP,
There was an article in last Sunday's Observer about Tower House, it seems it is to be turned into luxury flats. Please go to the link for the full story:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1334670,00.html
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3331
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 6:33 am: |
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Hi AP and John
AP, yes please send the will. Also, I've decided that we need some of these Cutbush wills, so will be trying to obtain them in the near future.
John, thanks for that link. It looks as if the place will soon be occupied by people who use only the finest cutlery. Re the LVP, the Booth site seems unobtainable at the moment, but I seem to remember that Fieldgate St in the LVP was a mixture of the poor and the comfortable.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3332
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 6:56 am: |
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By the way, I've received a reply from the Foundry, who regret that they have virtually no information about the Mears family, and say that from my reference to a Thomas Mears son-in-law, I hold more information than they do!
Bloody hell!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 1:15 pm: |
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Thanks Richard and John.
Yes, I've already checked out the article... for some really good photographs of the interior of the 'Tower HOuse' there is a website for squatters and others involved in the massive building. I'll see if I can post the site.
Robert, I made an error with the Great Synagogue, it is in fact number 41 Fieldgate Street, but I do believe there was an earlier synagogue at number 19.
I think Ive found another pub in the street.
It seems that many of the properties forming the lower street numbers of Fieldgate Street were involved in the sugar trade, for instance numbers 10, 16 & 17 were either sugar bakers or refiners, but interestingly enough number 16 was known as 'The King's Arms' even when it was a sugar refinery so I suspect that it was a pub at some time. This ties in nicely with the rumour of a pub in Fieldgate Street called the 'King's' something or other which I found earlier.
This suits your tale of Tom as it places a pub and a synagogue two doors from each other.
One think I think we have to understand is the massive size of some of these properties in Fieldgate Street, and to this end I will post shortly a classic example of this.
Currently I'm interested in a hotel I've found in the street, the 'Prince of Hesse Hotel' - licencee Girod Trinter - as this was also a large drinking house of the EVP & LVP but I have no number for it yet. So if anyone has any information on this hotel it would be gratefully received. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 1:22 pm: |
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This is a 'big' property:
1866
By Messrs Fuller & Horsey by auction at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate St, on Wednesday May 2 at 1 o'clock ...
Freehold estate in Fieldgate St, Whitechapel, comprising a spacious sugar refinery partly erected within a few years, and consisting of 3 buildings of basement and 6 and 7 floors respectively, a dwelling house, offices, saleroom, gatekeeper's apartment, yard, steam engine house, chimney, panman's cottage.
In the occupation of Mr Hodge sugar refiner who owns all the plant and machinery, but whose lease for 12½ yrs ran out on Lady Day 1866.
(The Times, 28 April 1866)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3335
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 4:03 pm: |
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Hi AP
This was the Prince of Hesse from 1891.
And this was Fieldgate St in an 1841 street directory.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3337
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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I believe that Clara died Lambeth June quarter 1909 age 68.
I wonder how much dosh she left Kate.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 264
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 4:12 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
If you wish I can check the National Probate Register next week, and see if there is anything there.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3338
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 5:36 pm: |
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Yes please, John, if you could for Clara - and (if you've got the time) for Kate Hayne who I believe died Dec quarter 1922 in Camberwell. I suspect Clara (and probably Kate) left what Henry Crun would have called a "goodly sum."
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 5:40 pm: |
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Thanks Robert.
I don't think Kate needed any more dosh.
That places the Prince of Hesse Hotel for me now, right next door to a cigar maker, but all these oranges are confusing me... there is the Prince of Orange and an Orange Row, and apparently all these mad Dutch men were mad on oranges.
I give up with that lot.
But I did get an impression that an author called RD Blackmore lived two doors up from the Prince of Hesse Hotel. But as I don't read I don't know him.
I found a few more pubs, but as they are closed now I can't get a drink. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 489
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 11:15 pm: |
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Hi A.P.
R.D.Blackmore is only remembered today for one novel he wrote - the historical romance about the Monmouth Rebellion in the 17th Century, LORNA DOONE. It is a good historical novel. Except for that, I don't recall anything else he wrote. I believe Blackmore died in 1900.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 266
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 9:02 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
I will certainly have a look during the week. However can you give me the full name of Clara?
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3344
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 4:16 am: |
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Thanks John. I believe her full name was Clara Elizabeth Hayne.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 8:49 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Here we go then, from the National Probate Calendars.
1909
Hayne, Clara Elizabeth of 16 Durand Gardens Clapham Road Surrey. Spinster, died 30 June 1909. Probate: London 1 November to Kate Cutbush Widow, Effects £246. 5s.
1922
Cutbush, Kate of 95a Azenby Road Peckham Surrey, widow died 16 November 1922. Probate: London 7 December to Clara Edith Hayne spinster. Effects £25
Best Regards
John Savage
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3346
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 9:15 am: |
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Crumbs, John, that was quick. Thanks very much!
I must say, I expected to find the pair of them better off than that. And who is this Clara Edith Hayne Jack-in-the-box?
Problems, problems.
Thanks again John.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 1:07 pm: |
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My thanks as well, John.
Very revealing as we all thought they would leave a considerable sum of money when they danced off this badly lit stage singing 'Who's sorry now'.
There is obviously something going on here which we have yet to discover.
Perhaps Kate had a bad eye for good china ware?
Perhaps the ghost of Christmas Past caught up with them? For it must have been a fine old chrissie for young Thomas in his first year at Broadmoor.
We shall see.
Robert, why do you think that Kate is listed as a 'visitor' at 14 Albert Street in 1871?
This confuses me. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 1:12 pm: |
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Thanks Jeff
does this really mean that I have to read 'Lorna Doone' again? Last time I was ten years old.
I'll see if I can't firm up the record of him living in Fieldgate Street. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3349
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 1:52 pm: |
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AP, it's a bit of a puzzle - especially when you consider that Thomas wasn't listed as a visitor.
Maybe she was having trouble with him and left him with her sister and parents, but ultimately returned to live there permanently?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3350
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 2:39 pm: |
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AP, John
One thing that strikes me as being not necessarily sinister but certainly odd : Clara is listed in the death registers for the June quarter of 1909, and here she is dying on the very last day of June - which presumably means that she must have died, the doctor signed the certificate, and the death was registered all on the same day!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1453
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 4:29 pm: |
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They are all sinister and odd, Robert.
They get born, married and die all in quick-time.
They always have two brides, usually sisters, who die very quick, and nobody gets the loot.
Here is a real bad one I recently dug out of his grave:
'HARRIS, William 1894 01 Jan Alias-HAYNES: Murder of FLORENCE CLIFFORD;Warwick '
a naughty boy.
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 268
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 6:05 am: |
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Hi Robert,
I guess Clara Edith would probably be a daughter of Clara Elizabeth, you can check by ordering the full will from the Probate Registry ( but they are about £8-10 each).
Regarding the date of death of Clara, I think that the registers would probably show a different date for the "When Registered" column to the "When and where died" column. But as the death occured in June it would have been added to the June 1/4.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3353
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 7:14 am: |
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Hi John
I can only imagine that Clara Edith was a sister or niece of Clara Elizabeth, since the latter never married.
Re the wills, it isn't quite as steep as that. Once before I went to the Probate Registry in London, and ordered a couple at a fiver a time. it only took them an hour. Or they can be obtained by post from York (I think maybe the pre-1858 ones have to be got this way) again at a fiver each.
A few days ago I downloaded some wills for only £3.50 each at documents online. However, you can only pick from what's already been scanned. If you ask for a special scanning, I imagine the price shoots up.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 269
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 7:44 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Yes looking back at my cheque stubbs you are correct regarding costs.
I must have been confusing them with the cost of birth/death certs.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3356
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 5:39 pm: |
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Hi AP, John
I'm a fool. Clara Edith Hayne, who was the beneficiary of Kate Cutbush's will, was obviously the Clara E. Hayne mentioned in both the 1871 and 1881 censuses as belonging to the other Hayne family with an Amercican connection. Ancestry lists a Clara Edith Hayne as being born June quarter 1871 St Saviour Southwark. Her age etc seems to fit.
This would seem to prove that the other Hayne family was definitely related to Kate and Clara (though that was always on the cards in any event).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3357
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 6:08 pm: |
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Here's that family in 1891. They have now left Newington for Duncan Buildings, 27 Verulam St and Baldwins Gardens, Holborn. John S Hayne is again given as born in America.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3359
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 8:53 am: |
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Maybe a copy of Kate's will would sort this out, or a plough through the death and marriage registers to make sure that "our" Clara Edith Hayne didn't either die or get married before Kate's death.
There is an Anne J Reid on the same marriage page as a John Samuel Hayne for Sept quarter 1868 in Newington. Also there is a John Samuel Hayne dying at Holborn Sept quarter 1891 age 43.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1454
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:01 pm: |
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You aint no fool Robert, that's me.
Do I see that said John Hayne was also a 'clerk'?
I'm sure you will solve this little mystery very soon, Robert.
Regarding Kate's paltry fortune on her death bed I would imagine that the only circumstances that might apply would be:
1)The unexpected return of TTC and the stripping of Kate's herediments in his favour.
But can a man come back from the dead and claim what is no longer rightfully his own once a court has passed it on?
And did Kate ever sue for divorce? - either for death or desertation?
2) The Haynes clan wrested back what was probably righfully their own before the marriage of TTC and Kate took place.
Here it is useful to remember the connection to the Australian Haynes who were certainly involved in protracted litigation concerning properties in the Whitechapel disrtict at this exact time.
3) The Italian lodger - Petrolino was it? - was Kate's toy boy and she showered him in gold ankle bracelets and Cartier watches.
4) Kate had a fondness for Bingo. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3360
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:20 pm: |
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Hi AP
My money's on 2 or 3.
The trouble with the bingo is, when a Cutbush won they went "Housey housey housey housey housey....."
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 10:12 am: |
|
Hi AP and Robert
Hope you don't mind me butting in here but this is a very interesting thread.
I have found a Mears family tree online, with the members of the Mears from the Whitechapel foundry included on it. No mention of Luke Flood Cutbush or the two sisters he married though.
Here is the URL for the family tree hope it's of help.
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=smears&id=I72170
Also I couldn't help but notice that you had found a B Solomons at 7 Fieldgate St in 1891 census.This name has come up before in another thread as being a possible candidate for a Benjamin Solomons (taylor) who was possibly a police witness in one of the murders.
Good luck with sorting out the Cutbush clan, I hope you will find a connection between Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Luke Flood cutbush eventually.
Thomas Taylors sisters all had the same names as Luke floods sisters, Clarissa, Sophia and Ann.
Got to be more than a coincidence!
regards
Debra
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sidewinder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 5:26 am: |
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Could that R.D. Blackmore be related to Ritchie Blackmore (the Deep Purple guitarist)? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3449
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 3:37 pm: |
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Hi Debra
I was just searching the archives when I found your post. This must be the post you referred to on the 1881 census thread.
The trouble is, the unregistered posts seem to only be on the screen for a short while, so unless we're looking at the screen when your name's on it, we can miss you altogether.
We've replied to your other posts already on the 1881 thread. Thanks for the info, and by all means "butt in" whenever you feel like it. I emailed Steve Mears but no reply as yet.
Solomons. Interesting.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 5:12 pm: |
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Yes, Robert is quite right. This is very confusing as I often miss Debra's very important posts... already Debra's posts have moved this search along very nicely indeed.
And I do regard her interest as vital.
Debra is quite right, the Solomon at 7 Fieldgate was indeed a tailor - or 'taylor' as was often writ.
There is no such thing as 'coincidence' where a Cutbush is concerned. That I have learnt.
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db
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 5:27 am: |
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Hi, can anyone tell me what was at 16 Fieldgate St. in 1917? Was it housing, or a pub, or a foundry, or a refinery? I have a great-grandmother living there at that time. BTW, her father lived at 30 Goulston St. in 1891. |
