| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 1:59 pm: |       |
An intriguing item is for sale on Ebay. Its is described as follows:
A most unusual item is for sale. This is an antique pocket watch stand with a very rare reference to something of universally historic notoriety. The stand has an oblong base with a boat mounted on two acorns. Behind the boat stands a cross also with acorns at the extremities of the arms. The hook for hanging the pocket watch is fixed to the upper arm of the cross. Written on the upper side of the base in front of the boat are the words 'The Ripper'. On the underside of the base is handwritten in some kind of ink the words 'Jack in Whitechapel at work 1888 1889'. The Jack the Ripper murders were committed in Whitechapel London in 1888 and 1889. In the letters sent to Scotland Yard during this period the letters most believed to be authentic the murders were referred to by the author as 'my work'. On the left hand side upright of the lower arm of the cross is some other writing in the same style and medium. The date '1889' is clearly shown but the remaining characters are to me indecipherable. Please see pictures. This item has been in a collection of pocket watch stands for many years. I have had the item looked at by a local antiques assessor and he didn't hesitate in stating that it looked of the period of the dates marked on it. I myself had no doubt from the beginning that it was of the period of the dates marked on it. The item is unique and very unusual and therefore impossible to compare to anything else. The question is who made it and why ? The letters that are indecipherable may be a clue. They do not appear to be English, I have wondered if they are Hebrew characters as they appear to have a similarity. And of course the history records that blame for the murders were at one point attempted to be placed on a person of Jewish origins. Which attempt incited riots in the East End of London. A rare and unusual artefact which deserves much more investigation.
The writing on the base is as follows:
The url for the tiem is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12&item=6924153379&rd=1 |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 972
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 3:01 pm: | |
Chris,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Now I've got that out the way I must say what a find once again (if scary).
What the hell is it all about?
Jenni
ps a watch stand????
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 140
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 3:06 pm: | |
The letters on the side look like ' 1889 Sr JIM ' - I'm serious !
Maybe somebody involved with the Diary should buy this ! |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 974
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 3:28 pm: | |
Simon,
please tell me you are joking.
I notice two bids. You've not got long if you want to nab it yourself,
please tell me you're not serious.
I already hinted once about watches but now this is daft!!
taking a closer look next!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!
Jenni
ps heading for my Harrison now for the purposes of handwriting comparison, (groan!)
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 975
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
Simon,
you were joking ?(else what do you mean?).
sighs of relief
Jenni
ps still interesting!
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 141
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
Sadly , I'm not joking !
If you look at the site and the picture of the letters on the side you can clearly see 1889 , then what looks like an S then an R or a T.
The last letter definitely looks like an M , the two in front of it look like a J and an I !
Maybe if I bought it , I could sell it to Feldy ! |
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for pointing the way to this.
I love the way the words "The Ripper" on the front are written in almost happy letters, big block ones, as if it were a souvenir item or something.
Sort of creepy.
It appears the seller has a long and reputable history on e-bay and his name is John.
So he can't be all bad.
Hope someone we know buys it,
--John |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 4:42 pm: | |
Here's the writing on the side as good as I can get it -
 |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 142
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 5:07 pm: | |
Well , it probably dates from 1889 even if it wasn't made by the Ripper !
What sort of sick f...person would make such a watch stand ???
If I can raise the money I will bid on it , it is certainly something that deserves to be investigated further anyway ! |
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Simon,
I have no real idea, but I'm guessing that the stand might have held some sort of commemorative kind of watch, probably with a sort of drawing or dramatization on the face or painted on the back.
That's just a guess, though.
Good luck with the buy,
--John
PS: And to think, just yesterday I saw a television commercial for a new commemorative coin "in honor of" the World Trade Center disaster, with the twin towers on the front and the new building's design on the back and the words "We will never forget" on it. And here's the kicker -- each coin is plated with solid silver recovered from a safe found in the rubble of the collapsed towers at Ground Zero. "When the supply of that very special silver is gone, this extremely limited edition will end" the narrator assured me in a voice designed to get me to call today.
|
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 407
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 5:24 pm: | |
John, a commemorative watch? Surely this would make the perfect companion piece to the Maybrick watch!
Dave
|
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
David,
Indeed. 
Perhaps there's a whole series of items, and they are only being released one at a time, like Elvis Collector Plates.
I can't wait to see what comes out next month.
--John (who is sure that if he calls right now, he'll receive, absolutely free, this special limited edition hand painted lithograph of the Mary Kelly photo, suitable for framing -- it makes a great Christmas gift...) |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 977
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:48 am: | |
Simon,
no, oh dear!
I much preferred it when i thought you were joking!!
Jenni
ps I can only see four letters.
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 979
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 8:04 am: | |
pps 1889?
what is that referring to?
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 146
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:28 am: | |
The price is now 127 GBP , someone else has bid on the thing. Is it anyone from this site ?
If this item is related to Maybrick then 1889 was the year he died , the last year he could have been active in Whitechapel.
Heres what I mean about the Sir Jim thing , we would need to look at the stand in more detail to see if this was correct , as the letter J could also be a W.
|
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 903
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:37 am: | |
Hi, Simon
You might be right about that writing on the cross although as fuzzy as it is in the print, it appears to me as if it could say "Jude" as in "Juden" for Jews, which might fit in more reasonably since the most famous man on the cross was a Jew, wasn't he?
It also looks as if the present high bidder "richmollie" might be the well-known Ripperologist, Richard Whittington-Egan, and his wife, Mollie Whittington-Egan.
All my best
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on September 10, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
Simon
What you see as the "r" I see as another capital "J".
I see what looks like:
J J J pi E
the fourth being the Greek pi or maybe two lower case"r"s
just for what it's worth.
Mags |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 984
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Well
I just wonder when it was found? where has it come from.
My brain isn't liking this at all!!
Jenni
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
I won't bid then , I wonder is it possible to tell Richard to bid high though because there are always last minute bids on this sort of thing , I'd hate to see him get outbid in the last ten seconds and have this item disappear into another private collection ! |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 986
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 2:53 pm: | |
Simon,
don't you think 127 is already a high bid for - well for that!!??
Jenni
ps I wonder when Richard's book is out?
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 148
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:55 pm: | |
Its now £147 Jenni !
Suppose this thing has some connection to a Ripper suspect , it could be quite valuable. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 987
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 4:09 pm: | |
Simon,
i reluctantly agree. i wonder where this person got it from and if they er could have possibly had it like that from someone else or if it er got like that while they had it. if it ers link to the watch watch or if its enterprising.
In 16 hours we will see what happens
jjon?
Jenni
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2985
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Besides the possible Ripper connection....what's it like as a watch stand? 
Robert |
Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:55 pm: | |
I'm with John. It looks like some sort of souvenir, the way "The Ripper" looks made into the top of the thing. I remember seeing a photo of souvenir miniature ladders being sold outside the Lindberg trial. People are weird. Does anybody know of ripper memoribilia being sold at the time? Goodness knows people bought souvenir crap by the ton in the 1800's {as they do now}.
K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner |
Simon Owen
Detective Sergeant
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 150
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 8:26 pm: | |
If its a souvenir though , why is there the writing on the bottom , it looks hand written !
And why a watch stand ???
Price is at £161 as I write ! |
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 759
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
Hi Simon,
My guess would be that it originally was a watch and watch stand together, with the "The Ripper" written on the stand and the watch having some sort of scene on it.
The other writing, on the bottom, would have then been added later, perhaps by the owner.
But those are just wild guesses.
The writing on the front clearly looks pre-produced, as if it were part of the item when it was originally for sale (as opposed to the other inscriptions).
The price has become silly at this point, if you ask me.
But I do hope someone we know gets it.
--John
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 8:20 am: | |
Bidding just ended - it went for £311 - incredible!
"Richmollie" was the successful buyer.
Chris |
John V. Omlor
Chief Inspector
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 760
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 8:26 am: | |
Thanks Chris,
If Chris George is right, then Richard Whittington-Egan and his wife now own this thing.
I'm no good at math, but even I know vaguely what that is in US dollars and it's a lot of money.
E-Bay is a fascinating place.
--John |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1373
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 8:47 am: | |
Agreed John
Ebay gives the equivalent as:
GBP 311.00 (Approximately US $558.74) |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 989
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
Well,
all i can say is - I hope it turns out to be worth it!
Jenni
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 904
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 7:49 pm: | |
Hi all--
You might be interested to know that we reported on this watch stand in Ripperologist no. 52, March 2004, as editor-in-chief Paul Begg has reminded me. At that time, we reported, "A watch collector recently purchased a watch and the pictured watch stand from ebay. The watch is hung from the stand and loose change is placed in the boat. . ."
From this, I infer that the watch itself, which I have not seen and only know about from this write-up, had nothing to do with the case, or else if there was originally a watch that was Ripper-related that hung from the watch stand, it has somehow been separated from the stand and been replaced by another that the collector purchased with the stand.
From our note in the March issue, you can see that the watch has been on ebay before and indeed the picture we reproduced is the same one that appeared on ebay in the recent sale, with the white paper behind the cross and the glass vessels in the background.
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by ChrisG on September 11, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 905
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 7:53 pm: | |
Before the main picture disappears off ebay. . .
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
|
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 581
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 9:39 pm: | |
Interesting thought on the Hebrew lettering. I am somewhat familiar with Hebrew (I'm not Jewish by the way). I see just possibly a Hebrew letter 'chet' which does look like a Greek pi (per Maria). Just possibly there is a 'tet' and a 'zayin'. Unfortunately, I see no significance in these letters other than they are together in the Hebrew alphabet: tet-chet-zayin.
But I hasten to add that these letters do not by any means appear clearly.
Andy S. |
Jim Garrison
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:15 am: | |
The wording 'The Ripper' on this object does not refer to Jack, but rather to the boat. 'The Ripper' is still a popular name for a boat today, and refers to its ability to 'rip' through the water. The ink writing has been added later (possibly in the last few years) in an attempt to relate a real Victorian artifact to the Whitechapel murderer. |
