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Justin Sherin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:09 pm: |       |
Several members have proposed the creation of a Ripper 'museum' in the East End, and have argued against the recent Ten Bells refurbishment. While I understand the impulse to preserve 'authentic' East End character in the face of encroaching gentrification, it's important to remember that the area continues to evolve from 2000 years of history. Christ Church is finally being restored. Spitalfields Market is London's best showcase for young artists, and Brick Lane is a cheap, accessible, more colourful Soho, minus the sex shops.
As historians we must be protective without being short-sighted. There is a Holocaust museum because the murder of six million Jews shaped the world as we know it today. The Ripper murders were horrific late-Victorian anomalies exploited by the radical press to spark social reform. Monuments to the great, unwinnable chase (anyone remember 'Jack the Ripper' t-shirts?) trivialise the victims' deaths and place the East End in an unfair context. The Ten Bells -- with the removal of the 'Ripper' board and replacement of the murals -- is actually much closer to its Victorian form.
A museum would be nothing more than a bare, walk-in restatement of the facts and theories, with the requisite gift shop. The relevant documents and artefacts are government property, or no longer exist.
If you want to feel like you're in 1888, go to Fournier Street, or the preservation zone around Artillery Passage, or the area immediately south of Commercial Road. Visit the excellent Ragged School Museum, an evocative reconstruction of Victorian and Edwardian daily life. Or support the restoration of the decayed synagogue at 19 Princelet St., which will be turned into a museum of immigration and social diversity.
Let's leave Jack to be hunted, and not continue to turn five dead women -- and the most exciting part of London -- into a grisly brand name.
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Peter
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
It won't be a brand name. I'm signing the lease for a building in Whitechapel soon that will be a Jack the Ripper museum of sorts. No admission charged.
Love,
Pete Whitehull
Ripperologist
Sometime writer
Founder of "Saucy Jack Museum"
Favorite Ripper candidate: Walter Sickert |
Eric Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 3:44 am: | |
Shouldn't a JTR Museum be in California? That is where the greatest concentration of serial killers is. Maybe the police could finger print and DNA everyone that visits and they can catch the Zodiac killer, the Original Nightstalker, and some others when they come to visit their idol's museum. |
Opal Elaine Small (Moyer)
Police Constable
Username: Bonedigger
Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:32 pm: | |
I think Whitechapel is just where such a museum would belong: the scene of the crime. If it's used as an educational tool, for the advancement of Ripperology and not done as a sideshow, merely exploiting the victims, what harm can there be in that? If JtR is to remain hunted, such a museum might keep the interest alive so he continues to be hunted. When the interest dies and the search ends, then JtR has gotten off scott-free. So long as there are interested ripperologists out there, there is always a slight chance that the villain may be found out and his victims vindicated. Someday, a bright new, young, mind may pass through such a museum. This bright, young mind may be sparked by the mystery and might go on to uncover the truth. This may be a stretch, I know, but anything can happen; even a longshot might be worth the effort. At any rate, the JtR mystery is a part of history and should be remembered as we would remember any other dark part of our past.
Bonedigger
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:37 am: | |
Plus if it's in California I couldn't go to it!!
I've always been interested in such a museum.
It would be good to have wax work models in it too.
Sarah |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 290
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:48 am: | |
Coincidentally I was transcribing a report about a wax museum of the Ripper victims in Whitechapel road only last night. I don't have it with me or I would post it here. I can't remember if it contains the address or not but if so, and the building still exists, then this would surely be the perfect location for a Ripper museum. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 312
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 9:20 am: | |
Alan,
I agree. Would it be possible for you to post it here when you can. It would be interesting.
Sarah |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:39 pm: | |
Hi.
A museum in Whitechapel, would be intresting to a vast number of tourists , and would pay its way, but alas , What does one put in this place, old photographs, waxworks?.
There is simply not enough items available , to warrant such an enterprise.
Richard. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 175
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
mock ups of the crime scenes |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 758
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi Richard
I tend to agree that the number of static displays in such a venture would be limited if visitors were left just to browse without necessarily being aware of the importance of what they were seeing. Another possibility would be to have escorted tours with a guide who would explain the exhibits and talk people through them, there could even be a reciprocal arrangement with one of the guided walks companies whereby people could visit the museum and then be taken off to visit the Whitechapel sites.
Another possibility would be to have a lecture theatre type space within the museum to have guest speakers as part of the "experience"
Chris |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 12:58 pm: | |
Well Richard,what we dont have we can make up as we go along.For example we can have the old maps blown up and recreate the streets of Whitechapel with dimmer lights,Christchurch ,St Botolphs,the big cab standetc.In a separate room you could have
the social composition and refer to the various immigrant communities and how they coped.
You could flood a wall with juxtaposed images
taking time backwards and forwards.And as long as you stayed within the boundaries of decent regard for the victims and other dispossessed people of that time------the question should be WHAT COULDNT
YOU DO....... |
Alexander Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:03 pm: | |
While Alan’s source may provide a specific address, this is how the Daily Telegraph, in an entertaining feature on “East-End Shop-Windows,” 29 Nov. 1888, page 5, described the location of the waxworks:
“On the southern side, [Whitechapel Road] not far from the City boundary, there is a small establishment in the window of which are displayed about a score of coloured prints and lithographs, cheaply framed, most of which originally appeared in the Christmas or summer numbers of popular illustrated periodicals. It is noticeable that female beauty and country scenery are “to the front” in this humble art show.
Another establishment, bearing some distant relation to one of the plastic arts, is situate at a street corner nearly opposite the democratic picture-shop, within a vigorous stone’s-throw of the London Hospital. It is no exaggeration to say that the most remarkable waxworks of this or any other age are now on view in a western section of the Whitechapel-road. This amazing exhibition occupies the ground floor and cellarage of a frowsy two-storeyed house, the upper floor of which appears to be unoccupied. An no wonder, for who would willingly live under the same roof with the ghastly dolls that tenant the lower part of this sordid messuage?”
Best wishes
alex
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 471
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:14 pm: | |
Hi.
With hindsight, one could recreate the atmosphere of 1888, with live characters dressed in authentic attire, mayby a mock up of a typical pub scene, there I will agree countless possibilitys, however How many acres will we need?.
Richard. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 293
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 5:44 am: | |
Hi
No specific address, just a vague location. Sorry guys. The transcript is below and is from The Irish Times, September 11th 1888.
Just a point but if anyone is in Dublin, head up to Clontarf to "The Bram Stoker Experience". This is an excellent example of what can be done on limited material. You begin by going through an area which gives you all the information about Bram Stoker's life and work etc, and then pass through a "time tunnel" into mock-ups of scenes from Dracula. The whole thing is very well done, and uses live actors who jump out at you at various points to scare the willies out of you.
Anyway, that transcript:
SCENE AT A WAXWORKS
There is a waxworks show to which admission can be obtained for one penny, in the Whitechapel road, near the Working Lad's Institute. During the past few days a highly-coloured representation of the George Yard and Buck's row murders - painted on canvas - have been hung in front of the buildings, in addition to which there were placards notifying that life size wax models of the murdered woman could be seen within. The pictures have caused large crowds to assemble on the pavement in front of the shop. This morning, however, another picture was added to the rest. It was a representation of the murder in Hanbury street. The prominent feature of the picture was that they were plentifully besmeared with red paint - this of course representing wounds and blood. Notices were also posted up that a life-size waxwork figure of Annie "Sivens" could be seen within. After the inquest at the Working Lad's Institute had been adjourned a large crowd seized them and tore them down. Considerable confusion followed, and order was only restored by the appearance of an inspector of police and two constables. A man attiredin workman's clothes and who appeared to be somewhat the worse for drink then addressed the crowd. He said - "I suppose you are all Englishmen and women here; then do you think it right that that picture (continued the orator, pointing to the one representing the murder in Hanbury street) should be exhibited in the public streets before the poor woman's body is hardly cold." Cries of "No, no, we don't" greeted this remark, and another scene of excitement followed. The crowd, however, was quickly dispersed by the police before the showman's property was further damaged. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 5:56 am: | |
Guys,
We would need to provide something for complete beginners and nothing that would make them bored. Lots of people are interested in the murders but also many of these people wouldn't want to bother with a lecture type area with guest speakers.
I like the idea of having a tour which then takes you to the murder sites though.
I've thought about a Ripper Museum idea for a while and my ideas were that the whole museum would be set up as Victorian East End London to get into the atmosphere with the murder sites all recreated. Also there could be waxwork figures of the victims, although maybe just alive with one of how Mary could possibly have looked. As far as showing them when they were murdered, I don't know. It depends what people's stomach's are like. I could put up with waxworks of the dead women but maybe some people couldn't although, having said that, there is a waxwork of Kate's dead body in Madame Tussauds and the only one worse would be Mary Kelly. Unless signs were put up to warn that it's not for the faint of heart.
Just an idea, maybe a bit too ghoulish for some though. Models, etc. would certainly be acceptable for ordinary tourists, but I agree that there should be extra optional stuff for people who are more interested.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 534
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 7:49 am: | |
I said it before and I'll say it again.
I feel that a museum dedicated to the period is in order here.
Something that incorporates the impact these murders had on people from the local everyday lives up to the higher echelons.
The social reforms, workhouses, police, goverment..ect..ect.
After all, these issues were brought to the fore by 'some independant genius'.
I wonder who that was ??!!
Monty
 |
Holger Haase
Sergeant
Username: Holger
Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
It should also deal with the impact the Ripper had on popular culture, i.e. film clips, book and comic covers, pub signs etc.
Holger |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 326
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
I agree, I think there should be sections on all sort of thing too. The museum should be informative but also in a way that people who only having a passing interest in it aren't bogged down by it all.
Sarah |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
Hi Everybody,I was wondering about Christchurch or St Botolphs.Part of the basement of either.
The reason being that these churches seem to have fallen into neglect on and off over the years
and it might be a way of bringing people back.
Christchurch is being restored at the moment so plans are probably under way for it.
As Monty says it could have a strong focus on the changes that were brought about and the conditions that the murders brought to wider attention as well as bringing the drama into play with a time tunnel and/or Richards live actors idea.And videos could be running too.Natalie |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 162
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
how about a collection of literature/research on the murders, esp those rare books, we can't all find?>
jennifer |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 3:52 am: | |
Hi Alan,
the exact location of that wax-show you mentioned could very well be that place, where J. Merrick was exhibited as well. It's directly opposite London Hospital and it's a Sari-Shop today.
Unless I'm mistaken, there was a wax "horror"-show (incl. JTR-scenes) in the front rooms, and Merrick shown in the back.
regards
Christian
(Message edited by chrisjd on December 19, 2003) |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 3:59 am: | |
P.S.: Here's a pic of the place:
Christian |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:38 pm: | |
Hi, Christian
Thanks for posting the photograph of the premises in Whitechapel Road where the Elephant Man was exhibited, presumably the same establishment that showed waxworks of the Whitechapel murder victims. This is I presume 123 Whitechapel Road. I note there is a monument in front of the shop. Do you know what it is to, Christian, a war memorial, or something?
All the best
Chris |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Hi Christopher,
as much as I remember TV-pics from Washington you can expect a white Xmas, here in Bavaria it looks like a green-grey November depression :-)
To be honest I didn't have a closer look at that monument. But somewhere in that area is a monument to Edward VII, and maybe that's it.
As information about it I quote the following from a website describing a "Jewish-East End" - walk:
"Edward VII succeeded Queen Victoria on 22.1.1901 and reigned until 6.5.1910. The poor Jewish inhabitants of the East End donated their pennies and three pences to erect this memorial as a mark of respect, their loyalty to the crown as loyal citizens and mainly in gratitude for having been allowed to stay and being given shelter."
But as I said before, I'm not sure if this is the one in question.
Here's a better quality pic of the building btw:
All the best
Christian
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 353
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
Is it just me or has the memorial moved. The first picture of it shows it to be on the right but this last one seems to show it more to the left. |
Christian Jaud
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:04 pm: | |
Sarah,
different point of view, when photo was taken. I think that's all.
regards
Christian
|
Mark Starr
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
Peter WHitehull wrote:I'm signing the lease for a building in Whitechapel soon that will be a Jack the Ripper museum of sorts. No admission charged.
Founder of "Saucy Jack Museum"
Favorite Ripper candidate: Walter Sickert
Bravo on two counts!
My suggestion: include first-rate reproductions of ALL of Walter Sickert's paintings linked in any way to The Ripper. You could have large high-quality photos made. But a better way to do it, in my view, is have a professional copying artist reproduce Sickert's paintings (minus Sickert's signature, of course.) This is a completely legal, highly specialized craft, and I know for a fact that some of the best copying artists in the world are based in London.
You might also include some paintings and drawings by Victorian Era artist/ripper Richard Dadd, whose pictures of his friends with their throats slashed was sufficient evidence for a British court to convict him of slitting his father's throat and sentencing him to life in Bedlam.
Regards,
Mark Starr
|
Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 5:38 pm: | |
Any more news on a Ripper Museum? It would be absolutely brilliant to have the murder scenes as realistic as possible, then we could go through the motions of what actually happend on the nights of the murders, put our theories to the test and who knows- solve the mystery of Jack. {Hope springs Eternal!} Busy Beaver |
Neil Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 7:20 am: | |
Probably going to register here soon.
The museum idea is interesting. I think the most important thing that you could see there would be original police papers and as these are government documents, as Justin said, I think an temporary exhibition is probably more realistic. For a setting, I can't think of anywhere better than the Museum of London - it's central, easy to get to and not too far from the crime scenes.
Here's some of what I think should be exhibited;
The police reports
All crime scene photos and sketches
A chronology of events
Biographies on police officers, victims and suspects.
Newspaper reports, including those from the illustrated police news.
The ripper letters, with comments on the more important ones - Dear Boss, Saucy Jacky, From Hell etc.
I'm reluctant to say there should be waxworks of the victims because it's slightly kitsch and if you want that, go to Madame Tussaud's or the London Dungeon. Similarly, I don't think extensive dialogue on social conditions would be needed - you can get that at the Museum Of London, the Museum in Docklands or any number of other sources, though some comment specifically on Whitechapel and Spitalfields would be nice. I think all of the crime scenes would be hard to recreate inside and on a museum budget. As for the general public, I feel that museums should not appeal to the lowest level, but try to raise it. I'd like to see an exhibit that does away with the myths and misconceptions that surround the case.
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Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 81
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 11:50 pm: | |
A Jack the Ripper museum? We've already got one - it's called Stewart Evans' house!
Tom Wescott |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1835
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 12:14 am: | |
Hehehe.. Good one, Tom.
You're absolutely right.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Justin Sherin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 2:06 am: | |
Thank you, Neil, for your well-reasoned view. You've got it spot on. The murders are only beginning to be placed in a broad historical context. And they need to be, because 1888 essentially became 'year zero' in the social/political history of the East End. Put a temporary exhibition in the (excellent and recently renovated) Museum of London, where the historical threads can be made plain for the casual student. |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 5:52 pm: | |
Great idea a 'Jack the Ripper' museum!....yes i did laugh at your post Thomas about stewart Evan's house! (sorry to mention it but S.Evan's didn't get the right suspect, but his book was good work, Tumbltey didn't fit the profile of the killer, he was purely homosexual including other aspects to the case). I think it should be educational and in memory of the victims, when i read what Catherine Eddowes had said to the police whilst she was in custody on the night of her murder, i broke down and cried. I would be very upset if these victims were exploited in anyway for cash, as when they were alive they were exploited for cash too, their lives were cruel and horrific they were never given the opportunity to live, they just existed in a cruel brutal world. |
Opal Elaine Small (Moyer)
Sergeant
Username: Bonedigger
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:13 am: | |
I, also, think that this is a great idea and I agree that it should be educational. Perhaps, a museum with some sort of JtR library where Ripperologists would have access to as much information as is available today. If it's done in an informative way for educational purposes, the victims should not be exploited this way.
Bonedigger
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 8:13 am: | |
Hi Neil,I agree with most of your post except that the social/political details of the times may yet help get to the bottom of the case.For example it was thought at the timre JtR might be some kind of religious weirdo.Also that he might be a "toff"---presumably looking for a bit of "rough" a la Jeffrey Archer etc.Both types came from interesting social backgrounds.To the "toff" our victims would have meant just something that could be used for whatever purposes
and then thrown aside.To the reigious "maniac" someone to use to demonsrate "the wages of sin"or alternatively to "free" from the wages of sin.
Give the social conditions of the time who can say whether these women had any choice to do other than walk the streets in order to stay alive
and the fact that most of them were so dependent on alcohol indicates that they suffered from that condition too.
Nevertheless the most oppressed groups of women were getting together over the dreadful conditions and 1888 was the year of the famous Match girls Strike in Bow nearby.So not ALL poverty stricken women chose the same route out of the social conditions as the rippers victims.
I am not judging these poor women and like you Shelley I have been upset sometimes by the indifference with which Catherine was treated at 1 am when the whole world knew the ripper was at large in the very quarter of Whitechapel where she was murdered.It seems not one of her goalers gave a toss.But even then there were other choices she might have made .
Natalie
hope this isnt going to be considered "preachy"
its just the facts as I have begun to understand them.N. |
Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 5:00 am: | |
Its funny that a thread started by someone who was against a Ripper museum has turned in to a Pro-museum thread.
Are we talking about a museum here or an ‘attraction’?
The word museum brings to mind a scholarly responsible display intended to inform and educate. From some of the suggestions I have read it sound more like what you are more interested in is mild titillation and entertainment.
I am as guilty as the next person here of deriving entertainment from the deaths of at least five women. Because lets be honest that is what we are doing. Don’t get me wrong it is a fascinating case and one to which I devote a large amount of my time. However just occasionally I feel a but uncomfortable in taking pleasure in murder. And pleasure it is, if we didn’t find pleasure in reading and discussing the case we wouldn’t do it.
My feeling of discomfort has not been helped by (for example) the truly bad taste and cheap ‘Ripperopoly’. I am sorry but that is sick and it cheapens any ‘Ripperologist’ who has bought it. Tacky commercial exploitation of the gutting of five women! For shame!
And it is, I feel, that same exploitation that would prevail in a Ripper ‘museum’. There are few, if any true Ripper artefacts available to populate a museum. What you would end up with is waxworks or (god forbid) people dressed up in period costume (no doubt putting on awful cockney accents).
This isn’t Sherlock Holmes it isn’t Oliver Twist this is the brutal killing of wives, mothers and daughters.
I for one would never visit such an attraction and would avidly support any moves by residents to stop such a place from opening.
Just my 2 pence worth!!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 4:57 am: | |
Hi Matt,what you say is true though I think that because the case is rather antique its become a bit of an absraction and much like solving any other crime mystery.I mean that when i am offered any choice at all as reading matter it has up to now been the detective story[Colin Dexter/Ruth rendell---even a while back now Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes.And at first I didnt know much about JtR though I read Stephen Knight"s book
about 12 years ago and was riveted by it!And i must confess I quite like the American true crime stuff thats on ch 5!
But as I read more and more about the crimes attributed to JtR on this site I have learnt more and more about the Social and personal History of some of the characters who populated the East end at this time and the story has become "fleshed out" and even more fascinating.
So its complex.I havent"t been to the London Museum partly for the reasons you refer to but I have been to the Barbican one and read books on the eastend and the workers movement that flowered there from 1888/1889 in particular and leant about important episodes in the history of the struggle of the working classes of the eastend in particular to overcome their poverty.
And I have leart of it in a way that has thrilled me and inspired me because through various noted contributors I have felt that I have "got to know" the story of the east end in a way [the latest and very enjoyable AP"s illuninations about the "atmospheric Railways" being an example of the last two days only---and there are so many]so while I do agree that respect for these dead women is very important its surprising what gets thrown up in the quest for their killer!
And therefore I think we should guard against being too censorious---being ghoulish isnt a sin
---Vincent Price was brilliant at it[and Anne Rice
and Alfred Hitchcock]---we wouldnt ban them would we?
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2789
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
Hi Natalie
I once saw Vincent Price do a cookery programme. He picked up an enormous cleaver and said, "This is just what you need if you're expecting friends to dinner."
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2790
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
"for dinner" that should have been! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
Hi Robert,that made me laugh that did.Wasn"t he brilliant!
Natalie |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 647
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 6:54 pm: | |
Matt
I think if there were to be a Ripper museum it would have to be a bit of both. Obviously I don't think anyone here would want a tacky "London Dungeon" type display, and would want something somewhat scholarly. At the same time, though, if it is going to be self-supporting then it is going to have to pull the tourists in, so it has to be entertaining at the same time. It's a fine line between tacky and tasteful, and the trick would be deciding exactly where it lies.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2792
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 6:56 pm: | |
Yes, Natalie. One of the funniest things I've ever seen was Price and Peter Lorre having a wine-tasting duel in a film called, I think, the Comedy of Terrors, but I might be wrong on the title. Price swishes the wine around in his mouth and lets out little gasps of air. Lorre's character just swallows the wine, gets the vintage right but gets very drunk as well!
Robert |
Howard Brown
Sergeant
Username: Howard
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:36 pm: | |
How about instead of a Ripper Museum.....all the willing and available British posters "bum rush" the PRO or another source of possible data, and see what they can glean....compare notes...share ideas....and then make a thread on what they found out.
Guaranteed to be a great thread.... |
Neil Cooper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 2:34 pm: | |
Hi Natalie,
I think you miss understood my post. I'm not saying the social conditions are not relivant to the case - goodness knows they are. My point was that in the museum scenerio i was imagining, i.e a temporary exhibit in a national museum, there would be limited space and so extensive retoric on social conditions wouldn't be helpful, especially as it is covered in places like the Museum of London and any text book in the c19th you might look in. But yes, the environment and society are integral to the crimes and JTR wouldn't have happened without them!
As for what Matt was saying, yes popular interest in the murders is, arguably insensitive to the victims, but there is interest and has been for a hundred and fifteen odd years. if you check out the Is ripperology history thread, you'll see that most people here take a scholarly view of it. Unfortunately the subject has never been treated that way in the public domain. It's time something like a museum exhibit rectified that. |
Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:30 am: | |
Absolutely my own interest in the case is, I hope, scholarly otherwise we have a terrible case of the pot calling the other pots black as it were - but as has already been pointed out a Ripper ‘attraction’ would have to be ‘entertaining’ and to that end I am rather afraid it would have to apeal to the lowest common denominator.
That’s the way commercial ventures work. The same lowest common denominator that would buy one of the Ripper board games or take part in Ripper weekends.
I’m not sure exactly how Scholarly ‘Ripperopoly’ actually is.
Even this very web site has to pander to both audiences, don’t get me wrong Mr Ryder, I happen to think that the Casebook is the single greatest repository of information on any subject on the net. In design, content and navigation the Casebook is unsurpassed, but it still has to stoop to the more base levels of ghoulish human interest.
There just aren’t enough serious scholars of the case to keep a 'scholarly museum' afloat financially, the financial backers of a Ripper museum wouldn’t say that it’s biggest rival would be the British museum or the Science Museum it would be the London Dungeon that they would have to seek to compete with.
In a word distasteful.
Perhaps a permanent display at the Museum of London near St Pauls would be more appropriate.
But please no wax figures no exchange students in ‘authentic’ cockney costume all pie and mash and jellied eels. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 832
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:14 pm: | |
Hello Matt
You stated: "The same lowest common denominator that would buy one of the Ripper board games or take part in Ripper weekends."
I have to take exception to the last part of your statement, Matt.
Let me ask, have you attended any of the U.S. or British conventions? I have so far been to five such conventions, the first three U.S. conventions, in 2000, 2002, and 2004, and the last two British events, 2001 and 2003. I can tell you without hesitation that the level of the talks is high and that top experts attend and moreover are listened to at these Ripper weekends.
Matt, I will say that I helped organize the first two U.S. events and although we were half expecting some strange people at the first one, and were not sure what to expect, I can say without hesitation that the people who attended were serious, interested people. So your inference is plainly wrong that "Ripper weekends" -- if by that you mean the conventions-- play to the lowest denominator. I hope this helps clarify matters in regard to that remark of yours.
Sorry, Matt, but I think you are also wrong in saying that this website "has to stoop to the more base levels of ghoulish human interest". Something tells me that you are new here and don't know much about the site. Am I right?
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Brad McGinnis
Inspector
Username: Brad
Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 1:02 am: | |
Well said Chris. Anyone who has gone to a RipCon or has been around this site for any amount of time knows that most folks here arent looking for purient material. Its the mystery, the "How the hell did he get away with this?", and the dislike of the unknown that drives most of us. We dont like unsolved crimes, especially brazen murders.
And since I actually know Mr Ryder I can tell you he's a scholar and "panders" to no one.
Brad
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Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 6:48 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the response
I am not actually looking for an argument or in fact to offer offence to anyone.
But to put at least one of your assumptions right... I am by no means new here, I think I first saw the Casebook website around about 2000 possibly 1999? I am sure it was in the study of my previous home, which I left in 1999, my memory isn't what it once was but I am sure it was about then. I find the inference insulting, just because I don’t happen to agree with you doesn’t mean I am ignorant.
I hope I qualified my statement with enough praise for this site to show I actually do like it.
So with that in mind are my humble opinions now worthy of a little more weight now that I am not 'new' to this site?
Neither am I new to criminology or in fact the Ripper case having been interested since the very early 1980's.
I don't need to have been to a Ripper Fan Conference to know I could glean nothing of value from it. That said however I was persuaded to attend the Ripper conference in 2001??
Was it really that long ago?
I’m am sorry, perhaps it wasn’t my cup of tea, and I am sure it was very well organised but I found it trivialising and base. The vicious gutting of women should not be the platform for a jolly weekend out.
Reviews of the recent conference in the USA actually sound even worse. Some kind of actor doing a monologue? Playing different parts from the Ripper 'story', in my opinion (and lets face it its the only opinion I could possibly have) that is beneath serious ripper research, and would be better suited to some kind of art student fringe theatre.
I am heartily sorry if my opinion is insulting to anyone, but I do not apologise for having them.
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Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
If you would like me to site examples I will - Games and Diversions “Ripper Concentration”, “Ripper Poems”, ”Ripper Crosswords”, “Ripper Quiz”
Would you like to tell me exactly how scholarly they are? Would you like to explain how these DON’T trivialise murder?
Perhaps we should have a version of Concentration Camp Concentration with SS guards from Auschwitz. Extra points for Josef Mengele.
Sorry to be shocking but I think I have made my point
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Matt
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:51 am: | |
Brad,
I am writing this before my previous response has been posted so I hope they go up in order (I know I should register but frankly I cant be bothered)
As I have already said, I have been around this site for a long time, possibly even longer than you. Do not mistake the fact that I haven’t often contributed reams and reams of inane prattle on some of these Message boards, as an indication that I haven’t been here before, and I have been to a British Ripper ‘fan’ Convention.
I found you to be quite wrong, although there were plenty of serious students of the case there were also plenty of the other type to. To site just two examples I heard people bemoaning the fact that people weren’t coming in costume and others planning Ripper parties.
Tell me where that isn’t inane?
I didn’t want to get involved in this kind of bickering.
But again, I would ask that you do not disrespect others views purely because they are different to yours, this is the second time it has been incorrectly implied that my opinion is due to ignorance.
Now I will happily discuss with you my opinions, but could you perhaps stop making assumptions and tacitly insulting me.
""Anyone who has gone to a RipCon or has been around this site for any amount of time knows that most folks here arent looking for purient material""
Well-said and quite true, I agree. Which you would already know if you actually read and fully assimilated my previous posts. MOST people I agree, but over the many years I have looked at this site especially at some of the discussions that go on (and on) in the messageboards I have seen ample proof that there are also some more banal interests out there.
And this usually scholarly Site actually allowed itself to be sponsored by one of the Ripper board games, front page first thing you see on a site purporting to be a serious repository of information, is an advert for a board game based on murder, not Sherlock Holmes, not Bill Sykes, Nancy and the lovable Artful Dodger but actual murder.
My turn to make an assumption, I would take it that both you and Chris are American. Am I right? To you these things happened a long time ago and a long way away, I can understand why your tolerance for the banal would be higher than mine, to me this happened where I live and within the living memory of people (now long departed) I once knew and cared about.
I am sorry but in my informed and not ignorant opinion thatkind of sponsorship cheapens the casebook, that panders to the lower morality.
Now my opinion is not fact, that’s the thing with opinions on subjective matter, they cannot be proved or disproved. I have always felt uncomfortable with the Games and Diversions section, I feel that to be inappropriate and more than a little base. Another opinion. However, I accept that to be a successful website you must pander on occasion to some of the lower levels of humanity. I accept that it has to be done, but it is my right surely to say I don’t like it, without being called ignorant!
And to rather drift back onto topic a Ripper Attraction in the heart of Whitechapel would be nothing more than a tacky tourist trap. To argue that it would be educational is highly spurious, we can learn nothing more from it than is already available in books so what would be the point? Ghoulish bloodlust and titillation? That is about all we are left with.,
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