|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 11:24 pm: | 
|
Hi Glenn.
In your experience as a crime historian can you give me your interpretation of the frequency of killers who have attacked others by manual strangulation?.
In this perspective I am looking only at certain criteria.
- No use of a ligature, nor garrote.
- Discount all occurances of violence between couples, husband/wife, girlfriend/boyfriend, etc.
- Only consider those attacks which can be determined to have taken place while both perp. & victim were standing, as opposed to lying down.
Obviously, I am looking at face-to-face, standing position, manual strangulation.
- Only consider the instances where the perpetrator approached and attacked a stranger.
- The initial action to subdue the victim was manual strangulation, regardless of what was to follow.
I am just looking for a gut feeling here, I am not expecting you to provide numbers. My gut feeling is that this type of attack is actually rare and fraught with uncertainty for the perpetrator for a variety of reasons.
I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from, and sorry if the question appears unreasonable. I'm sure there is no data as such to tap into.
Thanks, Jon
|
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 445
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 4:15 pm: |
|
Hi Jon,
I think Gary Ridgeway manually strangled all of his victims (is it 48?). The Boston Strangler, who may have been at least two different people, seems to have first manually strangled and then tied on clothing (so I'm not sure if that would count by your definition?). Either way, I believe the starting position is both standing in both cases, though I think for both the victims were thought to be spun round and strangled from behind? As you make the requirements more and more specific, then there will be fewer and fewer matches. I think, if one specified "manual strangulation, followed by throat cutting, followed by abdominal mutilations, where victims were all prostitutes and generally left in the street", you might not find another match at all! Sort of like, victims were all university women, with long hair parted in the middle, suffered from blunt force trauma, abducted from public, will match with Ted Bundy, and nobody else that I know of.
Anyway, Gary Ridgeway and Boston Strangler are two that come to mind right away that match much of your request.
In 1888 England, guns were rare, expensive, unreliable, and noisy. That pretty much leaves knives, blunt force trauma, poison, or strangulation of some sort. Given that people performed much more physical labour than today in everything they did (walked more, no lifts (elevators) or escalators, no automatic doors, etc) then one could expect the average person to be much stronger than today. Manual strangulation wouldn't take much time, especially just to achieve unconcsiousness.
- Jeff |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 1:06 pm: |
|
Thanks Jeff.
Yes, I fully understand that being picky about 'exactly' how it was done appears to be 'leading' the reader, if thats the right term.
Several of Ridgeways victims had no apparent cause of death, so strangulation is assumed. With what and how is unknown, even suffocation is not ruled out.
In other cases a ligature was used, pants still found tied around the neck, as an example.
I'm not sure if it would be relevent to take each of his victims one by one and list the presumed cause of death, but to strangle with a ligature appears to be the desired method.
Likewise with the Boston Strangler(s), many times ligatures were found still in place but I did not include these cases because the circumstances are entirely different.
I'm drawing a line between those type of murders where the killer has both time & privacy to do whatever he wishes.
Simply put, if a man has both time & opportunity to lay with his victim and then, at the time of his choosing assaults her, climbs over her body, sits straddling her with his hands around her throat and the full weight of his upper body pressing down. She has little or no chance to survive this situation. She cannot use her arms to any great advantage and her legs are behind the attacker, she is in effect helpless.
This is not the Rippers M.O., so those types of murders are not applicable. Thats why I exclude 'couples', where a husband (boyfriend) strangles his 'mate' in their home. In 9 out of 10 cases, if a ligature is not used then the 'straddling' method is automatically assumed by the killer.
Once again, this is not the Rippers M.O.
Approaching your victim in the open street and grabbing her throat making all attempts to be both quite and swift appears to be a dubious scenario to me.
Not only are the victims well clothed around the neck, the attacker is wide open to a swift knee to the groin, fingers in his eyes, and generally open to punching or scratching by his victim.
We might see it done in Hollywood, but in reality, how practical is it?, and how often has it honestly occured?.
I think the use of a ligature, is by far the most well used, practical and obvious method in any strangling cases, which is why I was being so 'picky'.
Most people seem to accept the Ripper strangled his victims, even though there is no evidence of pressure marks from thumbs or fingers on either the front of back of the necks on any of his victims.
Thanks, Jon
|
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 1:38 pm: |
|
Hi Jon,
Ridgway admitted he started with manual strangulation while usually having sex with a woman prostitute doggystyle (well, with the killings with that MO, he did attack a random teenage boy in a park with a knife quite severely prior to that). He moved onto using ligatures to prevent the women from scratching his arms. I don't recall how many victims it took before he realized this, but it wouldn't be difficult for that to have been at a point in which it already surpassed the Ripper's total count.
More to the point, I think you are being way too particular and specific in what you are looking for here. You ask about approaching a victim in the street, as if they knew beforehand he was trying to kill them, when prostitution means they'd be expected to be right on top of each other already. You talk about a knee to the groin as if the killer had to have been in front of his victim instead of to the side or back, which many people consider more likely in the Ripper case. You claim there is no evidence of pressure marks from fingers or thumbs on any of the Ripper's victims when such bruising is noted on some of them. You also specify manual strangulation and not ligatures when some people think Jack did use some sort of ligature, or the possibility that he, like Ridgway, started with just using his hands and switched to clothing or some other item because it worked better.
You've narrowed down your search for comparisons to how you think the Ripper did it to see if it's at all common, but you are so specific that the Ripper case itself probably doesn't even fit your criteria. At that point I don't think your comparisons are going to be all that helpful anymore.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2011
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:59 pm: |
|
Hi Jon,
Sorry; I totally missed this thread, for some reason.
As you understand, I can't give you an exact account -- my crime historian experiences lay mostly on my Scandinavian home turf -- but we've had quite a lot of cases over here during the last hundred years where strangulation was used in the modus operandi to kill the victim -- especially in multiple murders. Very rarely hand strangulation, but most commonly a scarf or ligature has been used.
The most well known over here -- and who must be considered as the first known Scandinavian serial killer/rapist -- was Hans Christian Madsen (a character I have performed some studies on), who during the beginning of the 20th century attacked women of all ages, gave them a blow to the head, strangled them with their own scarfs and then raped the dead body. But there are others. For some killers ther also seem to lay some sexual gratification in the strangulation process itself.
However, if strangulation in this context is common or not, is impossible to say from where I sit. I am sure there are some statistics out there, but I haven't seen it.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 173
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 3:29 pm: |
|
Hi Dan, you commented..
"More to the point, I think you are being way too particular and specific in what you are looking for here."
I know thats the way it appears, let me ask, if you are looking for comparisons for a strangulation technique, would you include those which I described as 'not applicable"?.
If you think they are, I would be interested why.
"..You ask about approaching a victim in the street, as if they knew beforehand he was trying to kill them,.."
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion, I was adopting the assumption that most seem to believe, that both the predator & prey were strangers. If you believe they were not then, ok.
Coincidentally, I was just reading last night about the evidence of Mrs Sarah Colwell (Colville), who lived in Brady-St near Bucks Row.
Her children were awakened by a woman beating at her door trying to get in crying, "Police, Murder".
Assuming this is true & accurate, that is a departure from our traditional concept of a stealth-like quiet approach by 'Jack', more applicable to your previous comment..
"..as if they knew beforehand he was trying to kill them,.."
Apparently Nichols did.
"You talk about a knee to the groin as if the killer had to have been in front of his victim instead of to the side or back, which many people consider more likely in the Ripper case."
He didn't 'have' to be in front, as I explained, it is thee most accepted stance, though quite problematic in practice.
A stance to the side provides little by way of compression, the strength is in the fingers & thumbs, standing to the side only applies pressure to the jugglar veins, she will fall asleep eventually but after she has screamed her head-off. There is negligable restriction to the air flow from this position.
Standing to the victims rear only requires we look for bruises of thumbs at the back of the neck, and fingermarks to the front, the reverse of the standard position, and we have neither to support either proposal.
"You claim there is no evidence of pressure marks from fingers or thumbs on any of the Ripper's victims when such bruising is noted on some of them."
Not so.
In each case bruising was duly noted and described, Nichols ONLY bore bruises on her left jaw (finger bruises), and on her right jaw (thumb bruise), suggestive of being held by a left hand while she lay on her back. Or alternatly, by a right-hand while standing.
No bruises on her neck.
Chapman had no bruises on her neck either, she bore three scratches below the left ear, indicative of her own attempt to free her neck from some 'device?', or 'hold' by her attacker.
She also bore a singualr bruise to the back of one hand.
Eddowes had no bruises on her neck, she had bruised shins and a bruise to the back of a hand, they specifically looked for bruises around the head and found none.
Kelly was so disfigured that apart from noting that the cuts in her throat bore signs of ecchymosis, which could have a number of causes, there was no way to determine if she was bruised there at all.
"..You also specify manual strangulation and not ligatures when some people think Jack did use some sort of ligature,.."
Now you actually surprise me.
Some two or more years back I seem to recall I was the only one who advanced the possibility that Jack used a ligature (or Garrote?). A suggestion which received little support but brought numerous questions.
I would be interested on hearing those reasonings by the interested parties.
I feel pretty confident that taking all the circumstantial evidence into account, because thats all we have, there is a very good possibility that 'Jack' used a ligature, and from behind.
Thanks, Jon |
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 3:46 pm: |
|
Hi Glenn.
I was only looking for a gut feeling, you provided the response I anticipated..
"..Very rarely hand strangulation, but most commonly a scarf or ligature has been used."
I believe myself that this is a typical finding for strangulation in general.
I suspect to call it 'strangulation' is a misuse of the term, or at least tends to give the wrong impression, by far the most cases suggest the use of a ligature.
Tabram & Chapman are the only two murders where a 'suggestion' of strangulation was advanced, and I believe Tabram was not a Ripper victim, so I am left with Chapman.
If there had been any medical evidence whatsoever in the main cases that strangulation had been a factor they would have made mention of it.
There is no suggestion, not even a hint in the cases on Nichols, Eddowes or Kelly. (I omit Stride for the same reason as Tabram).
Dr Phillips thought that Chapman's protuding tongue may suggest strangulation, thats the only evidence we are presented with.
I think it is important to acknowledge that the medical men saw no bruising suggestive of manual strangulation, this finding is required before a proposal of the use of a ligature is advanced.
Thanks for responding.
Regards, Jon |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:09 pm: |
|
Hi Jon,
I am glad you mentioned Mrs Colwell/ colville , this evidence is vital in establishing the approach of jack, it would appear that Nichols was temporary able to free herself from her killer, that indicates that the killer may have been unsteady when attacking his victim, either intoxicated or unsteady on his legs through a disability, rather like the described approach in Schwartz testomony' walking as intoxicated' it may also indicate why Tabram was found on the fist floor landing of a tenement building.'Did she flee from her assailant?.
It however would not explain the calm approach which is indicated in the Eddowes murder, hand on chest etc.
Which leads me to believe that the man seen to have been with Eddowes in church passage was not infact her killer, but a man trying his luck with a woman for sex.
as mentioned before the brusing between Eddowes first and second finger[ of recent origin] could indicate strongly that the killer graped her hand and pulled her tightly to her final resting place.
This leads me to believe that our famous 'Jack' was not the smooth charmer that it is assumed , but nothing more than a brutal monster.who approached his target and immediately started his assault, without fear or remorse.
Regards Richard.
|
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 229
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:11 pm: |
|
"I was adopting the assumption that most seem to believe, that both the predator & prey were strangers."
By your phrasing you seemed like being strangers alone somehow made it less likely for it to be manual strangulation. Strangers, especially ones with the expectations of having sex, can get into a position to strangle their victim quite easily.
"Her children were awakened by a woman beating at her door trying to get in crying, "Police, Murder".
Assuming this is true & accurate [...]"
I wouldn't assume that if I were you. There were many rumors and outright fabrications printed, and this one is rather dubious. Newspaper reports can be used to support any thing you want if you are willing to ignore the police evidence.
"Not so."
Well, your interpretations don't match up with what some of the police said about those marks or what major authors say. You may be right, you may be wrong.
"Some two or more years back I seem to recall I was the only one who advanced the possibility that Jack used a ligature (or Garrote?)."
I may be recalling your earlier comments then. I think other people had posted statements that were partially supportive as well (for some reason Monty springs to mind, but I could be mistaken).
I could certainly see the Ripper switching to a ligature at some point, especially since that could explain the differences with some of the later Whitechapel killings that aren't normally linked to the rest. I could picture him doing it earlier as well, but I don't think we can rule out manual strangulation either. Most of the victims were drunk, ill, weak or otherwise not likely to put up much of a fight, so manual strangulation wouldn't be all that difficult. Ridgway, for example, only switched to using ligatures after a victim was able to put up a good fight, and he normally picked ones more youthful and healthier than the Ripper's.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
|
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 229
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 7:20 am: |
|
Hi,
Interesting thread. There are two main methods of killing someone by applying pressure to the throat/neck area.
1. Cut off the air supply by applying pressure to the windpipe. This ususally, but not always results in a fracture to the hyoid, a small horseshoe shaped bone found at the base of the neck. Because this involves cutting off the air it does take time and a fair degree of strength.
2. Cutting off the blood supply to the brain. This involves applying pressure to the carotid arteries. From the front this involves a great deal of skill. From the back this is relatively easy. Place your arm fully around the neck so that the adams apple nestles in the crook of your arm. Twist your wrist inwards so that the blade of your forearm cuts into the carotid artery. Unconciousness usually occurs within three seconds and death within about eight seconds.
BE VERY CAREFULL WHEN ATACKING THE CAROTID ARTERY!!!
I was once giving a demonstration of this and the class was facing me in a semi circle. I placed my thumb into the artery and then turned so that the whole class could see. You've guessed it! Before I could complete my turn I was flat out on the mat!
This method is very silent and if you have applied your arm corectly almost impossible to break out of.
Bob
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 180
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 6:18 pm: |
|
Absolutely Bob, you explain the two main methods precisely.
It was for the lack of tell-tale bruising in the required areas for option #1 that I initially plummed for option #2.
But, I read that in many cases where option #2 was applied the victim's ears bled.
There is no mention of blood issuing from the ears in any Whitechapel victims. This doesn't rule it out of course, but it would have helped a great deal if there had been some mention of such bleeding.
On reflection I feel option #2 was just a little too scientific and any correct application requires an exposed neck. These women were clothed for a cool night and that factor may have inhibited both option #1 & #2.
However a ligature can be more easily applied.
Regards, Jon
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 182
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 9:19 pm: |
|
Hi Dan, you commented..
"I wouldn't assume that if I were you. There were many rumors and outright fabrications printed, and this one is rather dubious."
With regard to this specific incident, we have many statements to the effect that it was an unusually quiet night, no-one heard anything, not residents, night-watchmen nor police, yet a savage murder was committed right under all their noses, in some cases only feet away.
You remember the same response over Martha Tabram's murder?, committed on a stairwell in a tenement building yet no-one heard anything.
Chapman murdered in a backyard where 15? people occupied rooms nearby.
Eddowes murdered in a square while people slept or stood watch not many feet away.
How suspicious does the "I heard nothing" sound under such circumstances?.
No-one saw him, no-one heard him, these very frustrating statements by potential witnesses have helped to create the spectre of a stealth-like creature, silent & invisible that can take a life right in front of their eyes and there's not a thing that can be done about it.
That perception Dan, is what is not true.
I prefer to allow for a variety of possibilities, look at certain incidents from a different perspective, facts are few in this case, the possibilites are many.
Regards, Jon |
Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 249
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 9:58 pm: |
|
Hi Jon,
"How suspicious does the "I heard nothing" sound under such circumstances?"
Not suspicious at all to me. I honestly don't get where you're coming from at all on this. Are you arguing that all the reliable evidence says it was silent, so it couldn't have been? Isn't that kind of like arguing that lack of evidence of a conspiracy proves that there is a conspiracy? Or you arguing something else entirely but I'm just not getting it? Because what your saying doesn't make sense.
The incident you are referring to is actually covered pretty well in Begg's new book. If you track newspaper coverage of the event, you'll find that early reports make it an altercation of some sort around midnight with no screaming involved. Just like any good myth in the case, it changes as it gets reported by various papers. Eventually (days later) we have someone claiming that they heard the incident themselves but the details are modified to make it more dramatic and to fit the time of death better. But even there it's not consistent, as Mrs. Colwell's story ends up changing between reports in The Star and the Daily Telegraph.
The newspapers are littered with stories of things that never happened. You're on pretty dangeroous ground assuming any specific one is true without verifying details in police reports or other accounts, and in this case the other details are contradictory.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
|
Jon Smyth
Inspector
Username: Jon
Post Number: 183
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
|
"I honestly don't get where you're coming from at all on this. Are you arguing that all the reliable evidence says it was silent, so it couldn't have been?"
No Dan, my position is simply that presumed 'reliable' evidence is not always reliable.
In narrow streets a cry can echo in one direction, while be merely a whisper in another. And in many cases be totally unheard quite close by.
We know that a statement like "I saw no-one" in fact means 'no-one suspicious', not no-one at all. People were walking those streets at all hours, in some cases the streets were quite busy.
The same with "hearing nothing", we cannot be sure if they only meant "hearing nothing suspicious", which is quite likely in many cases. Whitechapel streets to be both 'deserted' and 'dead silent' is extremely unlikely given the type of neighborhood we know it was.
It's a matter of interpreting the evidence in light of the social conditions.
Regards, Jon
|
Charles DeBain
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:37 pm: |
|
Dear Readers,
I happened upon this site by accident, but as a crime buff and forensic student (who has studied cadavers who suffered manual strangulation deaths), I feel as though Jon Smyth wasn't being too picky when it came to his original questions about manual strangulation. There is a very realistic scenario that I believe would happen if (and I'm not saying I believe Jack the Ripper did use manual strangulation) the Ripper used manual strangulation.
Jack saw a very enticing prostitue, one he felt he could attack and kill easily. So he lures her somewhere quiet, then turns at her using his sociopathic ability to appear normal one second then violent another. He grabs her by the throat (and due to the fact he knows what the proper grip is to strangle a victim) and digs his thumbs into her trachea with all his power. As the crushing of her larynx and trachea (windpipe) start she feels light headed and starts to fall while he simply squats a little and finally crushes her throat. After 1 minute she will convulse, 2 minutes she will have suffered brain damage , and 3-5 minutes after unconsciousness she will go brain dead.
The forensic cases I am studying show me that manual strangulation can take place in any position, the main threat is the amount of strength needed to hold a person by the neck and still be able to focus the strength of their thumbs into the trachea. And just for the record a serial killer has existed, who strangled women and started in a standing position. Earle Leonard Nelson, a/k/a The Dark Strangler, a/k/a The Gorilla Man was a serial killer of 1920's America . He traveled across the contry and then into Canada, strangling women of all ages. He would ask them to show him a room for rent ,and once in the room he would ask about a stain on the ceiling (or some other ruse) then lunge forward and strangle the woman to death.
The truth is manual strangulation as a technique of murder is usually acquired by killers who have either have impulsive tendencies to kill or by killers who feel a special purpose in using their bare hands to kill another human being.}}} |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
