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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 379
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:36 am: |       |
Hello all,
There is a Sherlock Holmes story titled (I think) 'The Man With The Twisted Lip' where Watson finds Holmes, in disguise, in a opium den somewhere in the East End.
My question is, would the den have been in the Whitechapel area, or more likely in Limehouse?
I'm at work right now, so I can't access the story, but it seems to me Watson says the den was close to the Tower of London, so what area is that considered?
Any help with this would be much appreciated.
-K |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 12:54 pm: | |
Hi Kris!
Lomg time no see 'eh!
Strange as it may seem I dont have the answer to The Man with the twisted Lip thingy...but give it time!
The area around the Tower is I recall Tower Hamlets today but again.I cant be sure will check on returning to Blighty tho and let ya know\Catch ya later before the 23rd!
Cheers and forget the Stoli this time ...it's the absinthe this time (after all they do say I makes the heart grow fonder!)...groan!
Cheers
Suzi
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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 380
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 1:12 pm: | |
Suzi,
Hehehe - too true - maybe next time I'll have Ken and you to my place so we can imbibe copious amounts of Stoli in the privacy of my own padded room . . .
And no worries about the Twisted Lip thing, I'm in no hurry!
See ya soon,
-K |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Hi Kris,the den could be in the area of Whitechapel-the Minories or in the part of Lemain Street that runs towards the Tower.I think though that you are right in thinking he may be referring to the Limehouse area which is just a bit East of Whitechapel and which Peter Ackroyd used as the setting for his Murder Story[he mentions it as being full of "iniquities",
Hope you are all having fun
Natalie |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 381
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Hi Nat,
We had a ball last night - first time I've ever got a chance to talk about the Ripper in detail with people who knew what I was talking about! Plus, I got to meet Suzi and Ken in the flesh, it was well worth, what a pair of lookers! (I'm a tad hungover today, though, ah well . . .)
Thanks for the info too . . . I sort of suspected the area he describes is maybe a shady area between the two . . . somewhere around the west end of the Ratcliffe Highway, and it sounds like you do too . . . at least I'm on the right track . . .
thanks again,
-K |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2811
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi Kris
It's Upper Swandam Lane, amongst the wharves on the north bank of the Thames to the east of London bridge.
Tell Suzi to remember my duty frees. 
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 366
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 2:54 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
I was reading in my annotated edition that there's no such place as Swandam Lane. The location of the opium den has apparently been the subject of a few dissertations by Holmes enthusiasts over the years.
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2812
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 3:54 pm: | |
Hi Dave
Interesting. Wonder why he picked that name? I've been gazing at it to see if I can get a good
anagram out of it, but no luck.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 367
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:09 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
I might have mispoke--William Baring-Gould wrote that there's no "Upper Swandham Lane". I don't know if there's a real Swandham Lane or not. Baring-Gould goes on to say that most commentators place the scene on Lower Thames Street.
Psst--I plan on marketing my new invention, the GSG (Goulston Street Goggles) on Ebay shortly--they allow the wearer to spot anagrams with ease. If you're not afraid of looking like Elton John did in 1975, I'll comp you a pair. 
Cheers,
Dave |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 382
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
David and Robert,
Can I get a pair of those too? I'm hopeless when it comes to anagrams . . .
Thank you both for the help/info here . . . I'm writing something right now that needs an opium den, and I just wanted to place it in a realistic locale. Seems I have the right area anyway.
Do either of you know anything about Victorian dens? Was there an area something like a red light district for that sort of thing?
-K
p.s. - after reading David's first post I did a quick Google of the street and only came up with sites devoted to Holmes. But, I didn't try Googling without the 'Upper' part . . . |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 368
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Kris,
I don't know anything about Chinese opium dens, except that they look like extremely comfortable places. If you're writing fiction, why not just make something up? That's what Conan Doyle did.
If it helps, here's more of Baring-Gould's annotation (#6): "There is, or was, no "Upper Swandam Lane" in the great city of London, and there is no "vile alley" on the north side of the river, east of London Bridge, which would be accessible in Watson's cab (almost the whole of the area is taken up by Billingsgate Fish Market). Most commentators have selected Lower Thames Street, which stretches parallel to the Thames from London Bridge to All Hallows by the Tower of London. Mr. C.E.C. Townsend, on the other hand, concluded in his essay, "The Bar of Gold," that the opium den was "situated somewhere in the 200 yards of Wapping High Street that lie between Wapping Station and the bend where it joins Garner Street." Mr. Alan Wilson ("Where Was the 'Bar of Gold'?") discarded Watson's "east of London Bridge" entirely and settled on No. 22 Upper Thames Street, to the west of London Bridge. The late H.W. Bell ("Three Indentifications") was forced to resort to crossing the river. There, on the Surrey side, to the east of London Bridge, he found Stoney Lane, an alley leading into Tooley Street, with houses at the lower end overlooking the river; this he identified as "Upper Swandam Lane."
Also, regarding Holmes's statement "It is the vilest murder-trap on the whole riverside. . ." there's yet another alternative opinion, which I guess almost no one agrees with: Baring-Gould writes: "There is, in fact, a Paul's Wharf which lies west of London Bridge on the north side of the Thames about midway between Blackfriars and Southwark Bridges, and is therefore discarded as a clue to the location of the "Bar of Gold" by all except Mr. Alan Wilson, who writes: 'Halfway down Upper Thames Street is a small alley called Trig Lane. Farther on is another called Paul's Pier Wharf, and yet farther on another entitled Castle Barnard's Wharf. Behind these, on the river, are Paul's Wharf and East Paul's Wharf. It follows, then, that since the Bar of Gold backed on to the corner of Paul's Wharf, and Paul's Wharf is found behind Upper Thames Street (Upper Swandam Lane), we should be able to find the opium den lying between Trig Lane and Castle Barnard Wharf."
If you like Sherlock Holmes and Victorian England, I recommend The Annotated Sherlock Holmes. It's out of print, but you can find copies on the Internet. Jeffrey Bloomfield turned me on to this book. I also understand Norton is coming out with a new annotated edition this November.
Hope that helps,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2814
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Kris, you might want to look at
http:/www.victorianlondon.org/ (Entertainment/Opium dens)
Dave, how about bifocals? Top half lets you see anagrams, bottom half lets you see the number 39.
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2815
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Kris. that's Entertainment/Drinking and drugs/Opium dens.
Robert |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 383
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
David,
Thank you for all that information! I have a best of Holmes that I bought for 2 dollars, its about the size of a phone book, but I should look into the The Annotated Sherlock Holmes . . . I think I will place my Opium Den on Upper Thames Street, and just make up what the inside looks like, as you suggested.
Robert,
Or maybe 38??
-K |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 369
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 5:21 pm: | |
Kris,
Oh, you'll probably be able to find all sorts of contemporary accounts of the insides of opium dens. It always looks the same in movies, people sprawled out on little mats. Robert Howard also wrote about an opium den in one of his crazy, race-war type of short stories. But I just meant why not make up the location. By the way, I use my copy of Holmes to work out with--the single-volume edition is massive. I'm glad the information is of interest to you.
Robert,
Entertaiment/opium dens is the phone book listing, I'm pretty sure! Your idea of bifocals is simply brilliant. Let's add a feature that does something when you view paintings as well--a kind of tint that only appears inside an art museum, maybe. We'll call it "pattyvision".
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2816
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
Ah Dave, Pattyvision! We'd need the super panoramic lenses - wherever you look, north, south, east, west, up, down, you still see Sickert. Lenses specially coated to let in the glare of publicity but shut out the glare of criticism. The glasses come in a special case that can be closed on a whim.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 370
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
Ha! Thanks for the belly laugh, Robert. Forget the Elton John frames; we're going to have to turn to either Michael Caine or the Harry Carey estate for this job.
Okay, I'm done--sorry to have hijacked the thread, Kris.
Cheers,
Dave |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2818
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 6:56 pm: | |
Dave, can you imagine Michael Caine on opium?
"There's a pink elephant on the ceiling. Now there's not many people know that...."
Sorry Kris. Back to the man with the twisted lip.
Robert |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 384
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:11 am: | |
Gentlemen,
Please, by all means carry on, I encourage humour. And at any rate, I've pretty much gotten what I wanted from starting this thread.
-K |
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