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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 9:51 pm: | 
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G'day Glenn,
I made that comment about the fear of misleading people to act as a reminder to Richard.
About the subtle connections:
I know there were hundreds of women living on Dorset street at the time and it's my bet that a mere familiar face in the crowd would have been enough to trigger the Ripper.
No, I never once claimed that the victims knew each other well. For the Ripper to kill women that knew each other well would have been suicide, because all the police had to do was find a common friend or associate and keep a close watch on that person and that person's spouse. That's why we should look for subtle connections!
LEANNE
Brain cells come and brain cells go,
but fat cells live forever! 
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Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 431
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:19 pm: |
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Richard,
The suggestion of the 39th Psalm being important is interesting, but the problem is that it's pretty hard to find a Psalm that doesn't reference the wicked, or ungodly, or destruction, of some sort. For some reason, I have a little book here that contains the Psalms, and let's have a look (for obvious reasons of length, I'll just list a few verses that one could suggest might appeal to JtR, or with a little thought, one could spin a connection with JtR from):
Psalm 1: verse 6 -
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
{This is not great, but it could be taken as suggesting that the ungodly should perish }
Psalm 2: verses 7 through 9:
7: "I will declare the decree: the Lord has said to Me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you.
8: Ask of me and I will give you the nations for your inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possessions.
9: You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"
{ This is great! Now one is God's own, and has been instructed to use a rod of iron (a knife is close enough) and dash them to pieces (cut them to pieces) }
This is almost as good
Psalm 2 verse 12:
Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are those who put their trust in Him.
{ the connections with killings of prosititues here is not too hard to see }
Psalm 3 verse 7:
Arise, O Lord; save me oh my God! For you have struck all my enemies on the cheekbone; You have broken the teeth of the ungodly.
(ok, this one's a bit weak, but many of the victims had bruises on the side of the face, etc. One could see this Psalm "at work" if one tried; would have been better if JtR pulled out teeth, but hey, can't have it all. At least some were missing teeth, so perhaps that close enough).
Psalm 4 verse 4:
Offer the sacrifices of the righteous, and put your trust in the Lord.
(That's nice and ambiguous as it allows JtR to decide what the "sacrifices of the righteous" are! Hey, why not "sacrifice the wicked" to prove you are the righteous?)
Psalm 5 verse 9 & 10:
9: For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is destruction; their throat is an open tomb; they flatter with their tounge.
10: Pronounce them guilty, O God! Let them fall by their own councils. Cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, for they have rebelled against you.
{ Verse 9 is very nice. Suggests that it's their "inward parts" that are destruction, hence the cutting open to get at those destructive inward parts. And, the imagery of the throat as an open tomb, well, this just clearly indicates that death must occur by opening the throat. JtR's whole MO is right here! }
Not much in Psalm 6, but interestingly enough, Psalm 6 is an appeal to God for mercy and forgiveness. It starts with:
1: O Lord, do not rebuke me in your anger, nor chasten me in your hot displeasure.
Do we have evidence that JtR was following the first 6 Psalms? One for each killing? When he got to Psalm 6, he realised his mistake (hence no more????!)
Nah, he would just skip to Psalm 7 verse 11-13:
11: God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
12: If he does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready.
13: He also prepares for Himself intruements of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts.
Good stuff there, God's angry with the wicked, swords (knife), etc.
And so on.
The Psalms contain all sorts of allusions to death, the wicked, violence, etc. If an unstable individual were reading them, they could easily find almost any Psalm that they could turn into a message from God to go out and destroy the wicked. If, of course, one reads the entire Psalm, and all the verses, this isn't really their message, but we're suggesting someone who is a bit crazy, so they miss the point by focussing on a few appropriate verses. As if the message is in that one or two verses, while the rest is just there to cloud the issue.
Anyway, in a long winded way, what I'm trying to get at is that by finding a number of ways to get 39 (or at least close to it, like 38, but add 1 because JtR forgot that 30 days has Sept), by then looking at Psalm 39, it's not too surprising that this deals with wickedness, the wicked, etc. All of them are like that, to greater and lesser extents. They are all written as from the point of view of a single person, talking to God, professing their faith, pleaing for help against the wicked, etc.
Anyway, even though one might be able to come up with a connection with Psalm 39, that's not really very surprising given the content of the Psalms. Moreover, this still doesn't connect Joe Barnett with 39. We've not seen anything to suggest he was familear with the Psalms. No bible, or verse book, was found at Miller's Court. There's no one who says he was religous. Psalm 39 isn't eactly a well known Psalm (like the "walking in the shadow of death"). And, there are far better Psalms to pick to suggest a connection with the JtR murders; I particularly like Psalm 5 - JtR's MO and the # of canonical victims = the Psalm number; It's even verse 9 (date of Kelly's murder was a 9; you suggest Joe moved in with Kelly on a 9 as well). Unfortunately for the 39 theory though, Psalm 5, verse 9, is the 42nd verse into the Psalms; not the 39th).
Anyway, some sort of connection between Joe and 39 still has to be established. The reference to the book of Psalms suffers from the fact that just about any Psalm could be made to suggest something to JtR. And, a connection to the Psalms isn't a connection to Joe.
- Jeff |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 998
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 3:51 am: |
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Hi Jeff,
after reading that i shall depart to work this morning in a holy mood
You are right the psalms do depict wickedness, the only reference to Barnett having a religious intrest comes from 'John Brooks Barrys ' work 'The Michelmas girls' with a quotation allegedly from Barnett ' I wanted her to attend mass again'.
But it would appear that the quotation was pure fiction, as half of the book is.
Ally.
I cannot understand why you do not understand the mathamatics.
simply. you can reach 39 two fold.
A] nichols the 31st of the 8th month=39
b] Stride / Eddowes the 30th of the 9th month=39
Or Nichols the 31st - chapman the 8th
Stride / Eddowes the 30th- kelly the 9th
The fact that no murder occured on the 9th october is only relevant in the killers mind.
Its that simple .
I do not wish to give people the misguided opinion that the 39 theory is absolutely the bees knees, as stated before it is such a amazing coincedence , exspecially when all of it is produced, that is well worth a close look.
Regards Richard. |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 671
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 6:04 am: |
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Richard,
I certainly am not accusing you of being anything like David Radka.
I do find it interesting that you can get to 39 in so many different ways.
Cheers
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr
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Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 704
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 7:10 am: |
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Ahh...I see so you are recycling already used dates. Well that makes no sense. In that case, with all those number combinations available, I am sure I can make all kinds of coincidences occur with every serial murderer in the world. Hey oooh..maybe it has something to do with chaos theory. Hmm...maybe all the random dates of murders can be determined to be following a pattern based on a universal constant or something...hey wait I feel an epistimological center coming on!
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 4:21 pm: |
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Ally,
when will you agree with anyone?, I am not being rude, it is not in my nature to be so, I am simply trying to put forward a list of [ mayby coincedences] that could be [ or mayby not[ dates that are relevant to the case that could spell out some relevant points that could put more significance on this ongoing puzzle.
I am as anxious , like most of us on the hunt for 'Jack' to consider every point, and discuss its merits or reject such purposals.
Being a critic is fair play, but at least have the imagination to put a theory forward of your very own, and i am sure we will give it a fair airing.
Regards Richard. |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 708
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 6:15 pm: |
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Richard, I'll agree with someone when they are right. I don't happen to think you are.
Regards,
Ally
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CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 4:11 pm: |
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Hi all,
Being the humble troll I am I would like to first correct a mistake a I made on my last post. I forgot to pay proper respect to the Quean of mean. Hi QM
Now that I have taken care of protocol, Hi Richard. I tend to agree with Ally that the 39 theory is just a coicidence, but I thought I have heard this theory applied too other suspects. Is it exclusive to Barnett? Would Barnett have some sort of compulsion disorder? If your theory is correct he moved into a house with Kelly because of the address. Are you suggesting that he lived his whole life useing the 39 method. I would imagine this drove Kelly crazy,[39 peas on a plate and no bread or 36 peas and three slices of bread] or did he move into the adress knowing that he was going to start his killing spree and eventually kill Kelly there? I respect you and the work you have done on Barnett! However I do not understand your point with the 39 theory.
YOUR FRIEND,CB |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 9:12 pm: |
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timsta - I believe it is some kind of merry dance.
Regards
David
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 3:32 am: |
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hi CB,
If Barnett was the whitechapel murderer, he would have long moved in to millers court by the time the murders started, i very much doubt that until august 88 he had any murderous intentions, and it is clear from the time he lost his job, that is when kelly resumed her prostitution.
The number 39 is not only relevant to Barnett , infact it is a black magic [ occult] number, for talking the number 13 and x it by 3 we have a favourable and favourite number multiplied.
Richard. |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 376
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 9:02 am: |
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Richard,
I've only read some of this thread, but I was just wondering about something that may have been brought up already, so I apologize if I am treading familiar ground here . . . Your theory is, if nothing else, very interesting, but in true numerology terms, shouldn't 39 really be 3?
The point of numerology is always to break any number down to it's one digit end. So, 39 is 3+9=12, 12 is 1+2=3 . . . so 3 is the number you should be worried about, isn't it?
Am I crazy?
-K |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 9:47 am: |
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Kris,
This has been mentioned before. As much as I don't agree with Richard's theory, I don't think he is using numerology here (correct me if I'm wrong though Richard). He's just looking at a number which seems to keep occurring.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to 
Smile too much and the world will guess 
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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 377
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 10:05 am: |
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Sarah,
Ahh, ok . . . never mind then. That'll teach me to post without reviewing the entire thread.
As I said, I still find the theory interesting.
-K |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 1:34 am: |
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I thought I had read that the number 39 theory had something to do with black magic and the occult. My question would be why would Barnett be useing this numerology. If Barnett was the ripper why would he use this numerology as a guide to when he was going to kill? If this theory is correct the fact that he moved into millers court with Kelly before the murders started and he had no murderous intent and the address added up to 39 he might of had some kind of compulsive disorder. My question is why was Barnett useing the numerology? Was he in the occult? Did he have some sort of compulsive disorder? If I was on the jury and the prosecution opened up with the 39 theory I would ask why. Why would Barnett plan the dates Of the murders and the different aspects of his life to add up to 39? The 39 theory sort of reminds me of the magic bullet theory in the JFK asasination. A scientist can probably proove that it is possible but is it Likely?
I would like to get back to your original intention for starting this thread. I do not know if I have a suspect that I would feel comfortable prosecuteing. In 1888 anything short of catching the ripper in the act would make it very difficult to prosecute anyone. Today since we have know hard evidence against anyone a prosecuter would be forced to try and get a conviction based on circumstantial evidence. I am about to put forth circumstantial evidence and some hear say evidence they may not be allowed.
I believe that there is only three ways the murders stop.
1. The ripper dies. Either he is murderd. He committs suicide or He dies of natural causes.
2. The ripper is locked up. Either he is put away [On another charge] in prison, or he is locked up in an asylum.
3. The ripper moves away and his new murders are not connected to the ripper murders.
I believe that the police were almost certain that the ripper had taken his last victim on november 9th. I base this claim on the fact that in less time between the Strid/Eddows and Kelly murder after the Kelly murder aid to the east end stood down. I dont believe that aid to the east end would have stood down so quickly after the Kelly murder. The police would have been taking a huge risk. If there had been another ripper murder the residence in the eastend would have been outraged at the noticable reduction in police presence. I think the police thought they had the situation under controll.
I believe the ripper had to have been in England at time. I dont think he commuted from france or do I believe he escaped from prison, had a twin brother claiming to be him that was locked up while he commited the murders, or bribed the police guards in chicogo to mark him down as present when he was not. [All theories witch I have read] I dont want to name any suspects that I really dont agree with.
Useing what I have posted above as a guide I have come up with a few suspects that fit the criteria.
1. The insane jew. Kosminski/Cohen/Kaminski/relative of Kosminski tring to frame him.
2. Druitt
3.Tumblety.
They all were in Eangland at the time of the murder. They all were suspected by the police at the time of the murder. [With th exception of the relative of Kosminski.] Something happend to them shortly after the Kelly murder. Tumblety fled the country. the insane Jew was locked up in an asylum, and Druitt commited suicide.
You can make a case against all of them but I feel the case against Tumblety is strong. He arrived in Eangland early 1888 and the murders started shortly after. He fled the country at the end of 1888 and the murders stoped. He was arrested for complicity in the Whitechapel murders and pursued by the police to Newyork. Tumblety's arrest record before and after the ripper murders. Everything from manslaughter too abortion cast doubt on his charactor. Those facts alone are enough to make a compelling case against Tumblety, and if you believe the colonel and his story of Tumblety's marriage to a prostitute and his collection of an anatomical collection witch included 12 wombs in glass jars [In the ripper murders the womb may have been a target] You have an interesting case against Tumblety. I think a stronger case can be made against Tumblety then most.
Take care,CB |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 3:49 pm: |
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Hi Guys,
I am not using numerology in the strict sense, it is simply the amazing number of times that the murders involve around 39.
My personal belief is that the killer planned the dates of these murders, for some kind of ritual which was personal to himself.
If i was to make a speculative guess , i would say that every time a murder occured , the killer was actually killing kelly [ in his own mind]
And when he did commit that murder, his murderous intentions were fullfilled.
He blamed her for the murders happening, and after her death the murders ceased.
Richard. |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 433
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 5:05 pm: |
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Richard,
The thing people are disputing is your claim that the number 39 does come up for each murder. What they are concerned about is the way the 39's result from picking and choosing the numbers.
For example, for Nichols the "39" turns up by summing the number of the month and the date. If we do this for all the murders (and you include Tabram, so I will as well) we get the following table:
Tabram Aug 7 = 8 + 7 = 15
Nichols Aug 31 = 8 + 31 = 39
Chapman Sept 8 = 9 + 8 = 17
Stride/Eddowes Sept 30 = 9 + 30 = 39
Kelly Nov 9 = 11 + 9 = 20
Three of the murders give 39 this way (Nichols, Stride and Eddowes) but we can't really count Stride and Eddowes as 2 occurances since their murders occured on the same day. If Stride is not a Ripper victim, her "39" is a coincidence (like the 3rd murder victim of that date, who's husband turned himself in after cutting her throat).
But, if you start combining any two numbers from any two murders, then you can make some more 39's. If we take the 31 from Nichols murder, you just need an 8. Since she was murdered in the 8th month, that means any body killed in that month could produce a 39. And, give that you also have a 30 from the Stride/Eddowes murder, now you can make 39's from anybody killed in the 8th or 9th month, or on the 8th or 9th day of any month. The other way round, if we use our 8 and 9 (from those months) we can also make 39's from any murder occuring on the 30th and 31st of any other month if we're allowed to combine numbers from 2 different murders. The 11 from Kelly's murder (her month) would then also allow us to include any murder on the 28th (which we don't have).
From just these murders, we can make 39 a few times. We've got 3 9's, which can each make a 39 with the 31 (day of Nichol's murder). And, we've got 3 8's, which make 3 more 39's when combined with the 30 from the Stride/Eddows murder. Notice, however, we never use the 7 from Tabram's murder nor the 11 from Kelly's murder. Those values get ignored in the 39 theory.
Is there any way to use them? Well, we could also combine the 3 8's with the 30, and get 3 differet 38's. The 7 with the 31 also gives a 38. That's accounting for our 7. 9+9+9+11 is also 38. That's 5 38's, and we use all the numbers in the dates, none get left out or ingnored.
Now, Tabram was stabbed 39 times, and her age was 39. And you've found all sorts of other 39's (sum of Kelly's address), number of letters in victims names, etc. But you've been looking for 39's. What if you were looking for 38's?
Tabram had 38 similar wounds, and 1 different. One could claim the the 1 extra was like a full stop, or an exclamation point. Meaning, it's not part of the "sentence", or the "message", it's the indication that the other 38 are what is important. Ok, so we could re-think Martha's wounds into the 38 theory.
And, although we only have 5 38's from the dates, the values used include all the murders: the 3 8's come from Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman. The 30 is used from Stride/Eddowes. 7 and 31 is Tabram and Nichols. 9 + 9 + 9 + 11 is Chapman, Sride/Eddowes, and the two values from Kelly's date.
Now, looking at the 38's, not only do I have just about the same number of 38's and a connection with Martha's wounds, but in fact these 38's end up using all of the day and month values we have. None are left out, while with the 39 theory, some numbers are never used (the 7 from Tabram's murder, for example).
So, what I'm trying to point out is that if one is allowed to pick and choose their numbers, then one could argue the murders are more closely tied to the number 38 than 39.
We could then look for something in the 38th Psalm and maybe find:
The 38th Psalm verse 7: "For my loins are full of inflamation, and there is no soundness in my flesh" and verse 20:Those who render evil for good, those are my advasaries, because I follow what is good". Not too bad, suggests he's picked up syphallis, they are his "advasaries", etc.
Look at Kelly's address Room 13 + 26 Dorset Street 13 + 26 = 39. One needs to be removed, that gives 38, so clearly the one that needs to be removed is Kelly!
See what I'm getting at? If we start looking for a different number (38) we can also find things that relate to that, and include more sinister hints (removal of one, Kelly, is necessary to get 38 at that address!)
I know you've put some time in to your 39 theory, but sometimes we see patterns where there really isn't one. They're like pictures in the TV snow.
I don't think I'm going to convince you to change your mind, all I'm suggesting is that you perhaps re-consider your conclusion that the 39's must really be by design. Or could it be that because you already believe them to be there, that you are "designing the 39's" without realising it?
- Jeff |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:17 am: |
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Jeff,
A very intresting post, You have certainly given it a lot of thought, point taken about using numbers, and statistics etc.
Actually I never took a long time with the 39 thing, it just flowed along.
For a long time now as it is well documented i have been pro Barnett, but a long time before that the 39 theory began,.
The repeated stabbing 0n Tabrams torso to a total of 39 times, with the age of the victim aged 39 years, the fact[ correct me if i am wrong , but was not Ada Wilson the same age]
Mary Nichols was killed on the 31st aug 88, and chapman the 8th sept, the murders of stride and eddowes on the 30th sept -Kelly 9th
although this is a sequence,also the 31st of the 8th month and the 30th of the 9th month is another, I would bet on it that the actual sequence was going to be 31-8 8-31 and then a gap of 39days before the next, but with all these murderous intentions the ripper lost track of the amount of days in sept.
I am also stating that the 9th november was chosen because of the public attention to the lord mayors show, which would give the killer even more invisability.
When i came to consider Barnett as a suspect, it also came to my attention that he moved in with her on the 9th day of a month, and moved out on the 30th of a month, and she was killed on the 9th of a month.
I then realized that her actual addressed conjured up 39, and that if one addresses Stride as Long Liz, the letters in the victims names add up to 39.
So you can see I am using factual knowledge to bring about a strange occurance, I am not trying to fit a peice in a jigsaw , that does not fit.
i would love to know the identity of the 'I live at number 39' cutler street letter' if there was only 39 house numbers in that street, then it still is a 38/1 chance that one being selected.
and that with all the other so called 'coincedences' all of which are relevant to the murders and a plausible suspect in Barnett, and the killings stopping after kellys death i consider that this 39 theory is intresting.
Regards Richard. |
John Dow
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 1:53 pm: |
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CB: In your three reasons why he stopped section, I'd add the following to 1):
He was quietly done away with by the police who, having known his identity had no supporting evidence. Kelly was the last straw. Might be an idea to have a look at people who were "questioned" on more than one occasion. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 2:09 am: |
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Hi Richard,
I understand, You think that the number 39 theory was being used regardless of the suspect. Who ever the ripper was you believe he was planning the murder around those dates because of some kind of ritual. Sorry for misunderstanding you [I have a thich scull.]
I took another look at the murder dates and there are some similarities. [I am sure I am not about to point out something that you have not noticed before] Nichols murderd on the 31 Chapman killed on the 8th, Stride and Eddowes killed on the 30th and Kelly murderd on the 9th. Even if you add Tabram she was killed on the 7th of the month. He killed at the begining and the end of the month never in the middle of the month. Even the days of the month ar similiar. The 8th and the 9th, the 30th and 31st. This could suggest that the ripper was on a schedule and he could only kill on the begining and the end of the month. It is interesting to note that he did not kill at all in the month of October. This could be because of a larger police presence on the streets but it also could suggest that the fact that he was only able to strike at the begining or the end of the month and possibly only on weekends gave him a limmited window to act. I believe this theory would support a sailor, and suspects such as LaBruckman and John Anderson. I think there could be a clue regarding the dates the ripper killed.
I agree Richard that if Joe was the ripper he was in fact killing Kelly in his mind every time he murderd.
Take care,CB |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 434
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:53 pm: |
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Hi Richard,
Just so you know, it took me more time to write the message about the 38 theory than it did to come up with it! Admittedly, all I had to do was find a number, and 38 worked quite well. Then, fit that number to other parts of the murder. What I tried to do was show how much of the same things that fit the 39 theory could be presented as fitting the 38 theory just as well. And the 38 theory doesn't appear to be dropping parts of the dates (it uses the 7 and 11, which the 39 theory does not). The use of all the numbers, although one less 38 than 39, makes it arguable that 38 works better than 39.
Anyway, as CB mentions, there probably is a pattern. If JtR can only kill on weekends, say Friday night through to Sunday night (unless there's a holiday), then the shortest interval between murder dates would end up being 5 days (murder 1 on a Sunday, murder 2 on the next Friday). The longest "1 week" interval would be 9 days (murder 1 on Friday, murder 2 on the Week later Sunday).
But, if for some reason Jack can't find a victim that week, he has to wait until the next weekend, making the intervals 12 and 16 days, or 19 and 23 days if he has to wait yet another week.
Below I've listed the rages (in days) when murders would be expected to occur, if Jack can only kill on Fridays to Sundays.
5 - 9 days (Range 1)
12 - 16 days (Range 2)
19 - 23 days (Range 3)
26 - 30 days (Range 4)
What that table means is that there should be no murders outside that "inter murder interval" table.
Tabram on the 7th of Aug, is followed by Nichols on the 31st of Aug. That's 24 days, and that's out of range already. However, Martha was killed on a bank holiday, which allows for the ranges to be widened by 1 day; making her just fit into range 3.
From Nichols to Chapman, we have 8 days (Range 1), from Chapman to Stride/Eddowes we have 22 days (Range 3), then Sride/Eddowes to Kelly, we have 9 days (Range 1).
Looks good, doesn't it!
Problem! Nichols was killed on the night between a Thursday and Friday. The time just happened to be after midnight. So although these numbers fit the "weekend only killer", Nichols murder indicates that Thursday night is good for Jack too. And Thursday is not part of the weekend. Jack may be on a "cycle" of some sorts, but it doesn't seem to involve the weekend.
Also, looking over the information on Mary Jane Kelly again, why do we say she was killed on the 9th? The 9th was the Friday. Nobody disputes the fact that 1 am of that night, she was alive and possibly singing in her room. But by 1 am it's now the 10th. Whether or not one believes she was killed at 4 am or later that morning, either time indicates Kelly was killed on the 10th of November?
- Jeff |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 260
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:23 pm: |
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Jeff,
Very good and what is important to any such "theory" is that you have produced something more like an actual algorithm since your use of 38 is based solely on the calendar. In contrast, Richard's theory jumps from the number of stab wounds, to calendar dates to addresses. None of the elements are independently reproducible for each event. Hence, it is only the loosest sort of coincidence that enables one to find something associated with each murder that will add up to 39.
Probably a lot of fun to try, however.
Don. |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 435
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:03 pm: |
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Hi Donald,
The problem is that since Kelly is believed to have been killed on the 10th, not the 9th as on her gravestone. Friday was the 9th, she was killed after midnight, either 4 am ish or 9:30-10:00 am ish, pending on your view. Either way, that makes her death on the 10th. That means 9+9+9+11 = 38, actually would be 9+9+10+11 = 39. So, 39 gains that one, but loses the 30+9 combo because the 9 should be a 10; it stays the same number of 39's, and now uses the 11 from Mary's murder (but doesn't use the 7 from Tabram's). The 38 theory loses 9+9+9+11, but gains 8+9+10+11 = 38, which still makes 38, so it also stays the same, and still uses all of the numbers in the dates. One less 38 than 39, but one more number used to complete the set. Which is "better"?
Do I think 38 is important? No, it's just if you have a small set of similar numbers, you can find many ways to make them total the same value. If you then seek out that value, you will probably find it. You will also find other values, but since you're not looking for them, you don't really notice how often "other values" show up. It becomes hard to then decide if "your value" is actually showing up moreso than "other values of which you have not taken note".
- Jeff
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 261
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:56 pm: |
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Jeff,
Oh, I understood -- maybe I wasn't "tongue in cheek" enough. Still, at least your "theory" (those quote marks were and are there for a reason) at least has a certain consistency of approach, something sadly lacking in the 39 "theory." As it is, I've always felt the business about 39 points the finger of guilt directly at Jack Benny (whose ancestry was also Polish and Jewish!)
And lest anyone take that notion seriously (of which you can never be sure around here), it was a joke.
Don. |
David Andersen
Sergeant
Username: Davida
Post Number: 50
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:57 pm: |
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I hesitate to intrude upon such a ludicrously interesting discussion. I may be wrong here but were not all of the victims murdered after midnight. Eddowes and Stride were killed after midnight so was Annie Chapman. Would this not affect the 'calculations'?
Regards
David
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 648
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:22 pm: |
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Jeff
Mary was killed on the morning of the ninth, not the night of it. It was the Friday morning that her body was discovered.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise."
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:31 am: |
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David,
As Alan points out above, Mary was killed on Friday morning (9th Nov), just as the others were killed in the early hours, for examples, Nichols on the morning of the 31st Aug and Chapman was killed on the morning of the 8th Sept.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess
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Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 436
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:02 pm: |
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Hi,
Ahhh! That would explain it! I must have misread the victims section on Mary Kelly. I thought it said Joe came over on Friday evening of the 9th, around 7 to talk to her etc, and she was found the next morning. Which would make the next morning the 10th.
Hmmmm, I'm just going to double check that.
- Jeff |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 437
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:18 pm: |
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Hi again!
There seems to be some error in the "timeline" of events as listed in the victims section, conerning the dates associated with Mary Kelly.
Here is where my error came from (this is a direct copy/paste from that section).
"Thursday-Friday, November 8-9: Almost every day after the split, Barnett would visit Mary Jane. On Friday the ninth he stops between 7:30 and 7:45 PM. He says she is in the company of another woman who lives in Miller's Court. This may have been Lizzie Albrook who lived at 2 Miller's Court."
It then goes on and lists events for later that evening, up until her discovery the next day. The passage specifically says that on Friday the ninth Joe stops by between 7:30 and 7:45 pm.
Anyway, if this is the error, and that should read on Thursday the eigth, then all is well.
Either way, apart from making me look a bit foolish (and I don't need any help in that department thank you very much! ha!), this has led to an important "observation".
First, notice how my 38 theory is "robust" against some fiddling with the numbers (as is the 39)? If 38 was so important, shouldn't it only appear if you get it just right? By messing up the date of Mary's murder, I can still make 38 (or 39) just as many ways, and still account for all the values presented.
Meaning, even if I use incorrect values, the same number keeps popping up (38, or 39). And, that's because we have so many numbers close to each other (7,8,9,11) to combine with two other numbers close to each other (30 and 31), and we have multiple copies of some of these numbers. That allows for similar totals to be made with different combinations. And, if you change only one of the numbers to a value not in the set, but in the same vicinity (say change one of the the 9's to a 10), it's not too surprising we can still get the same total in any combination that involves 2 9's. Replace one 9 with a 10, and the other with our 8. If our total only had one 9 in it, but also had an 8, reduce the 8 to our 7, etc.
The fact that even using an incorrect set of numbers still leads to the same totals, and has the same "quality of outcome" suggests that there might not be anything special about the correct set of numbers in the first place.
- Jeff |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 438
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 4:41 pm: |
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Hi David,
Yes, the time of the murders becomes quite important. The "date range" thing I was presenting was just to show how sometimes the numbers appear to fit the theory (the correct ranges) until you look at the facts a bit more closely. If Nichols is killed on Thursday night (despite it technically being Friday morning), it goes a bit against the idea of Jack only killing on weekends (Friday evening until Sunday evening).
Mary's death, which is also during a Thursday night/Friday morning time, isn't as big a problem because of the Lord Mayor's Show (so a holiday), which must be factored in (as with the bank holiday for Tabram's murder).
Time of the murders, being after midnight, is probably important somehow. It could suggest that the Ripper is spending evenings in a pub. Most of the murders seem to occur in the general vicinity of closing time (apart from Chapman's, which is of course the wrinkle in this idea).
Perhaps the Ripper was drinking in pubs, alcohol fuelling his anger over something. Perhaps he's out of money when he leaves the pubs, figures he'll rob the prostitute who approaches him to get 4p. Turns out she's broke, he gets angry and kills her, and finds it surprisingly thrilling. Problem is that Annie Chapman was killed around 5:30 am. It seems to me everytime I try and find a pattern, one murder or the other really goes against it when I compare that pattern to the specifics. I don't expect them all to fit exactly, but the idea shouldn't be directly contradicted: He doesn't need 4p for a bed at 5:30 am because he needs to go to work or find work. He must work because I'm suggesting he's going to the pub until near closing quite frequently. He can't go to work or find work while carrying a piece of belly flap and a uterus around with him. etc.
- Jeff |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 3:59 am: |
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Hi,
When i read that Kelly was killed on the morning of the 10th, i thought i was going mad, i had visions of nearly forty years of intrest in this case wasted.
The facts are that number 39 has involved itself in this case for what ever reason , not 38 .
Why should our killer work to a pattern?.
Ask any other infamous murderer why they use the signs of the Zodiac pick red heads, brunettes, or blondes, and many other sordid methods which form in their minds.
Richard, |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1243
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 7:15 am: |
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Richard,
Jeff is saying that, if there is a pattern, then why not 38? You can make it fit just as easily as 39. This 39 theory (or 38, or any number) may just be a coincidence anyway and doesn't prove he worked to a pattern.
Sarah
P.S. Wow, that timeline mistake is a big one. I read that not long ago and it somehow slipped me by.
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess
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CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 1:54 am: |
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Hi all,
Jeff, I believe that the dates he killed could be a tangible clue but I wonder why the ripper did not kill in October? Perhapes the stronger police presence or Maybe he was not in the country or at least the area or perhapes he never had the right opurtunity during his killing window.
I may even give him less of a window to kill then you do based on the date pattern because of the similarity of the actual days the 8th the 9th the 30th and 31st never in the middle of the
month.
All the best,CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:18 pm: |
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Hi John,
Thanks for answering my post. Interesting thought and it is possible that the police could have been pushed to the brink or maybe even a family member. Some people have suggested that Druitt did not kill himself but in fact he was drown by someone else.
All the best, CB |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 461
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:39 pm: |
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Hi CB,
There could be something in the dates, but really we're dealing with so few it's hard to know what the pattern is, or even if there really is one.
If the case is ever solved, then we may find that the dates correspond to time the killer was "in town", the missing murder in October may reflect the same, or the increased police presence in the area. On the other hand, we may find that those dates seem no different from the rest (Jack was out of work, and in London, the whole time). In which case we might conclude that those just happened to be the dates he found a victim (with the missing murders either due to him being unable to find a victim, or the increased police presence, or some other random factor). It may simply have been easier to find working prostitutes on the weekend and near holidays. Hard to say.
However, whatever ideas we have about the dates, must be remembered as only being theories. We can research them and see if those theories lead to anything, but we must be willing to reject them; we must remember that we only made up the theory - a theory isn't truth it is just a story that helps tell us where we might expect to find information. If the evidence turns out not to be there, we must reject the theory as simply another one of our own made up just so stories. We must not ignor evidence that disproves our theory, and we must be sure that the evidence we do find can not be explained more easily by other explanations. Because we just make up theories, we must hold them as highly suspect and put them to the test. Reject them if at all possible; and then make up a new theory that explains all the data; and start the whole process over. We can not catch truth with a captital T, but we can paint it into a corner.
- Jeff |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:11 pm: |
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I agrree you have to be willing to have an open mind. I will heed your warning and your advice is greatly apreciated.
Your friend,CB |
TB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Anybody that thinks that the number of times a victim was stabbed has something to do with the killer planning it that way and that it would somehow indicate personal info about the killer should be writing fiction and get out of the true crime bit. That's as far as I needed to read of your first post to be able to tell that you: were never a cop, were never an investigator, and you've never even solved a simple crime in your life.
Looking at nonsense that looks like it should be in a movie with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman is creative writing. |
Nicholas Smith
Inspector
Username: Diddles
Post Number: 151
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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G'day guys,
Let's cut the crap. We've all been around long enough to knoe the dates have no significance: Jack took the opportunity to kill when he could. There's nothing symbolic about the dates he murdered - check out some of the other threads.
TB - Read the guidelines to these boards and you'll notice it's not appreciated having a go at someone else posting. That's a no-no my friend.
Jules |
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